Pascal's Wager again

[Zzyzx]

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In one of the threads a member indicated that philosophical arguments, including Pascal's Wager, rule out the possibility of God not existing.

Blaise Pascal actually wrote (but did not publish) "If you gain, you gain all. If you lose, you lose nothing. Wager then, without hesitation, that He exists."

He did NOT use this as an argument that God exists. Instead, his argument is that whether God exists or not one should "bet" on existence. Betting is not argument for existence – but a gamble on what is (admittedly to Pascal) unknown.

I maintain that his proposal is faulty even in that:

1) The wager assumes a singular god (to bet on or against) when thousands of gods have been proposed, some of whom are said to require exclusive right to be worshiped and condemn worshipers of competing gods. Thus, it cannot be determined which of the proposed gods to worship. In other words, first pick one of the gods (with less than 1/10 percent chance of being right), then decide whether to bet for or against. Or, repeat this thousands of times . . .

2) There is no assurance that any god requires belief (or betting) by humans – and could require exactly the opposite – (disapproval of gullibility or naivete). Who knows such thing beyond speculation and opinion (ancient or modern)?

3) "Lose nothing" is incorrect unless ALL that is required by the god is betting / wagering that it exists (without "putting up" or "anteing" anything at all). In fact, however, some (at least) of the gods are said to require "true belief" (much more than just a bet) and most religions add all sorts of conditions to be followed by worshipers.


The argument may sound compelling in church when assumptions are made about which god to believe exists and what the god requires of believers.

Question for debate: Is the argument compelling or convincing in debate?

[arian]

May I ask: "What is your reason to debate here on a Christian and Religious Forum?

Firstly I started out here hoping that I might be able to believe again and that Christians would be able to help me answer some of my questions. However all it did was cement my disbelief.

Again I thank you for your response my fr.. oops, I mean; my fellow debater.

Answer what questions, .. that the Christian gods are not real as in scientifically real? No Christian has ever claimed that their god/gods didn't need blind faith to believe in!? So what were you expecting?

I also enjoy debating religion and this is the main reason I do it now. I also have a desire to educate and to expose lies and fantasies that Christians in particular make about their religion. I hope to even make them think about what they believe. Challenge them and try to shake them out of their delusions. I was in it for over 30 years of my life, and I do not want others to waste their time and energies on it. I care.

Same here, the Christian Religion does make up some fantasies and even lies, .. but it's all part of the business. No members - no money, right? This is what competing religions are all about, and it is those magical delusions that they come for. So what, .. you gona tell them they're not real? That would be like going to Disney World and telling people there that Mickey is not a real mouse, or that Donald Duck is not a real duck either.

I say: look into the mirror, and then look at you parents, then finally look at the apes.
Now ask yourself: "which image was I formed in?

What apes? You need to specify exactly what type of ape we’re looking at.

Even if we were talking about gorillas or orang-utans, I would be amazed at the similarities, especially when it comes to behaviour and instinct. Just watch a few documentaries and you’ll see just how similar we are. When you really consider it, when we get down to our basic instincts we very much are like gorillas and chimpanzees.

There is definitely many features very similar. Clearly we come from the same ancestry.

What do you mean "came from" the same ancestry? After 13.75 billion years of the universes evolution, and 4.2 billion years of your biological evolution, we have apes in the zoos, along with all the monkeys, so what do you mean 'came from'?
What does your evolution religion teach you as to who you are?
That's right, an animal, an ape. So when you look in the mirror and then look at yourself and your children, then you look at the monkeys and the different apes at the zoo and you see only similarities in both looks and behavior? Oh my Lord!?

That’s should be quite obvious to anyone.

Yes, to any religious Evolutionist. Just as obvious as praying to an idol named 'Mary The Mother Of God' counting their a rosary is to a Catholic. But it may surprise you that we are not all Catholics nor Evolutionists, so no, .. it is definitely not 'obvious to anyone or everyone.
Now I did see people putting on monkey suits, is that what you mean?

Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being?

Is it so shameful to admit that your ancestors were human and not the apes that are locked up at the zoo? Would admitting the obvious huge differences between apes and us humans make you feel insecure?
If any of my children started acting like monkeys around the house, and then keep telling me that they are really animals, apes at that, I would definitely have them checked out for any mental illness. But then this is a free country, we have a right to raise our children in whatever religion we choose, .. right?

Are you that arrogant that you need to put yourself above every other living creature or creature that has ever lived, on this planet? Perhaps you aren’t as special as what you think you are?

My dear Lord, I never thought a day will come when claiming to be a human over animals would be considered arrogance!?

Perhaps all we are is highly evolved animals and that’s the fact of the matter? Perhaps it’s just something you need to get over?

I'm not the one with identity problems; "perhaps I am this, .. or perhaps I am that?" I know exactly who I am.

You need to put aside that way of thinking if you wish to understand evolution.

Yes, .. that's exactly what the homosexuals are telling people, to put aside God, Jesus Christ and the Bible and our Christian way of thinking to understand homosexuality.

I've never once heard homosexuals saying anything like that. Sounds like a religious fantasy to me. There may be some, but most just want equal rights and an acknowledgement they were born that way.

Never but, .. there may be some, ok.
Born that way? .. you mean women with penises and men with vaginas?

Have you even made even an ounce of effort to try to understand where homosexuals are coming from or are you just putting on your bible blinders and simply scoffing at them and condemning them? Is that your way of loving and respecting people? If so I want nothing of your so-called love and respect.

Scoffing and condemning who? I love people, and when I see danger in their religious beliefs, I want to help them. And yes I know where sin is 'coming from', .. it comes from man rebelling against their Creator, their Father God.

And I understand if a self proclaiming animal, a human who claims to be an ape wouldn't care for my love and respect. I mean our minds are as different as a humans is from a monkeys. You could nourish, love, take a monkey in your home and treat it as your own child, and one day it could just rip your face off without any warning or logic behind doing it. But hey, that's what we are to expect from animals, right?

But I say nay! I will not change the world to fit you in, just as I wouldn't change the world to fit any other sin in, like murder, rape, child molestation, robbery, etc..

You sure do go off on tangents don't you? Bringing up stuff that has no relevance to the discussion. Fine, you keep your warped ideas about evolution then. Just don’t expect to gain any respect from anyone who understands it even a LITTLE. Reality speaks louder than the bible to most rational people.

When people, I mean humans start believing they are animals, apes at that, one should take a serious look at what they consider 'reality', wouldn't you agree? Even those who start to believe this a LITTLE!

Secondly, as I’m sure you’ve been told many times, we are not evolved from monkeys. That is just a silly argument that Christians use and when they use it they show their profound ignorance when it comes to evolution. It’s no wonder they continue to grasp hold of their fantasies that they were created by magic.

So where do you think you evolved from if not from monkeys? Were you always human? Did you ever walk on all fours? were you always hairless or with teeny tiny hair like you are now, or did you evolve out of all the monkey hair?

If you actually did some basic reading on these questions you’d easily have your answers. I’m not willing to waste my time on someone who has no interest in trying to understand it. You stick with your stories of super powered beings with magic powers. I will go with what I can see in reality.

Here is what 'I see in reality', it is also what I have observed over the 59 years, which is that I am very different then the animals, especially those monkeys, those apes locked up in the zoo.
Also, after much observation (what scientists usually do) I have noticed that my mind is who I am, not my fingers, not my teeth, or jaws or anything else that resides in my head like my brain, but that I am my mind. Magical-like I can create, come up with all kinds of different concepts, then send this info to my brain which then relays this info to the rest of my body parts to create these concepts.
Then 'reading' the Bible I noticed that God who is mentioned in there is just like me, matter of fact it says that I was actually created by Him (God) IN His Image.

But hey, if you understand from observation that you are an animal, an ape, .. what can I say, .. I mean I'm not a doctor to prescribe anything, but my suggestion would be to get help quick before this spreads to other family members.

Oh well, but i really am getting tired of teaching Evolutionist about their magical, long, long time ago evolution fairy tales.

Magical long time ago fairy tales? What like stories of a super powered being saying “abracadabra� and creating things?

Is that how you create things? If not, then why would you say your Creator doing that? There is a lot of 'work' involved in creation, so much so that even God took a 'Day' off.

There is no magic involved in evolution. What we have today is the inevitable outcome of a very long journey.

It is that 'Journey', from what I have read that is magical. Besides, if it's 'inevitable' why the long, long billions of years journey? why not instant, or 9 months or so? If you are an evolved and evolving creature, then how are you able to debate so quickly?
And what's holding your cousin monkeys and apes from speaking at least at a level of a four year old human-ape? Same earth, exact same amount of evolution, same area on earth, same sun, same environment, same surroundings, same mouth, same tongue, same brain, same vocal cords, yet Evolutionists can't even get 'Koko' to say "no" and mean it?? Why is this left out from the 4.2 BILLION YEAR story?
The answer: "Because that's how fairytales are told." and we are not to question them.

But clearly you have no interest in even trying to understand it. I’m guessing because deep down you know that if you really did come to understand it, it would make more sense than magical super powered beings saying “abracadabra� or “let there be light�. I think you are AFRAID to try to understand it. That is why you mock it and deliberately misrepresent it.

The word 'afraid' for me to understand something doesn't exist, unless you can pull some old debates and prove me wrong?

Can't you see that it is exactly because I understand the concept that I speak against it with such boldness? Would you like to debate "Let there be light" as I understand the Creation Story vs. Scientific claims of "single celled bacteria popping out of some primordial soup which over exactly 4.2 billion years evolved without a plan, or will but mutated itself into humans who could reason, evolve questions at such alarming speed?

I mean if Koko was to say "Hail Mary!", all the Sci-Fientists of the world would be making the headlines: "It took her 4.2 billion years, but finally Koko said her first 2 words!"

Then imagine how long it would take her to evolve a debate like this? (oh yea, with the new laws in place, are we allowed to call Koko a her? Or should we wait a few million years for her to express her preferred 'gender'?

"We didn't evolve from monkeys arian! We evolved from chimp-like monkeys, that's why we are still apes. If we evolved from stork-like birds, we would label ourselves birds, not apes."

Only a Christian would say something absurd like that. Definitely not any self-respecting evolutionist.

A self respecting human would NEVER in million years call himself an animal whose ancestors were monkeys, or one of the magically disappeared without a trace ape families.

Besides, that is not an absurd claim for an evolutionist, lizards and birds are a big part of their evolution.

OK, this is going nowhere,

No, especially not when one has no desire to make any effort to understand scientific fact.

Oh there it is, the 13.75 billion years ago scientific, .. observing the world around us in the here and now and documenting it fact. Making up stories from cave paintings, dried up jaw-bones of a pig and other dried bones, and interpreting fossils is not fact. They are stories, millions of them, not science. You guys have taught me well how to differentiate between science and fairytales, and I paid attention.

I still love you my friend,

You don’t even know me, so you can hardly claim to love me. Any such claims you make are worthless. Clearly you have no love for me or you wouldn’t be trying to make a mockery of my comments. You would not be trying to twist and turn them like you have.

But I do love you, and if you would just stop claiming the Big-bang Evolution stories as science, i could walk you through the Creation Story from a scientific POV, for free. I am not a religious organization, I ask nothing in return, it is a small way of extending the Love my Brother Jesus shown me.
Now if I went along with you like many Christians who accept evolution, THAT would be false love. Or if a Christian Homosexual told you "I love you" would be false love, or not the love Christ shown us.

Agape love, not that rainbow Eros love, OK! Just to make sure since I can't even express my joy, or being gay anymore.

You can be as gay as you like, just as long as you don’t try to insist on loving me. You’ll soon find out I won’t be quite so civil towards you as I am now.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. This is when the word 'love' has to be better defined, right?
No, I mean the love of Christ, a Godly love.

Take care my friend.

[Korah]

[Replying to post 81 by arian]
Maybe it's just me, but....
I have little difficulty in regarding humans as merely a step up from animals.
In this regard Benis's typology of three basic genetic characteristics comes to mind.
There's the Aggressive gene, found as a stand-alone in about 4% of the population. Of course you have to include incarcerated criminals in your count base, if you get what I mean. I guess I can't point out a country or society where this pure "A" type predominates--a whole country of sociopaths could not function as a society. But it's easy to point out countries where they have more than their share of Aggressives. Try the Middle East, where I'll bet Benis could find lots of them fighting for ISIL, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Boko Haran (whoops, that last one is in Africa--but they've pledged their allegiance to one of the foregoing, ISIL I guess). We don't need to blame Mohammed, the Koran, and Islam necessarily (though I tend to myself), but Islam could not so rapidly have spread from its origin among Aggressive types in Arabia unless it had had all those "A" types there to want to fight and die for Allah.
Oh, animals, almost forgot. Benis says baboons are pure type "A". They're not as big as we humans are, but a pack of them working you over would not be good!

Benis's next main genetic type is the Narcissist "N" type. Though these people always think of themselves before they consider anyone else, whole societies of them can exist. Benis points out Oceania where Polynesians live. Not that these fellows can't be mean and fearsome. Their wars in Hawaii and (less well documented) Easter Island are famous. I'm not sure they included cannibals--that probably was farther south and west among the Melanesians or Micronesians, not the more pure Polynesians farther east. Benis also finds simple Narcissist types among Arctic aborigines, particularly in the far north of Russia and Siberia. I guess having a happy smile all the time makes bearable such a miserable environment where you get midnight Sun alternating with winters -40 or worse!
Oh, Benis says cats are Narcissists. We always have cats at our house and yeah, they think only of themselves. A really strange claim he makes is that royals (kings, queens, etc.) tend to be pure Narcissists. I would have thought one would need to have a lot of Aggression in one's heredity to fight to the top of the pile.

The third genetic type Benis teaches is the Perfectionist P type. Strangely enough this type cannot exist as a pure P because it's one of those examples of a fatal gene--no baby homozygous for P can survive long enough to be born. So it's only found among us in combination with the others. There are NP types (endemic in China and among nerds), PA types (found among Authoritarian societies like in central Asia), and NPA types (predominating in Western Europe), Chimpanzees are NPA types, Gorillas are NPs and baboons are PA--I think I told you above in error that baboons are A types, but I can't remember for sure and can't think what Benis gave as the best animal example of an A Aggressive type. Snakes? Yikes!
So I really have no trouble likening us to animals. Sorry arian.
(Why do I now sound like Greg Laurie in my head saying what I myself said above? Am I as insufferable as a Greg-Laurie-preacher-type myself? Heaven forbid!)
EDITED TO ADD:
I think I've figured out my newly adopted style--lots of the Christians I commend on DC&R here argue, sound to me like Greg Laurie. No, not ALL of them, just some of them. I'd like to name them, but I'm already Under Probation. They're some of my favorites, but they just go TOO FAR.

[OnceConvinced]

May I ask: "What is your reason to debate here on a Christian and Religious Forum?

Firstly I started out here hoping that I might be able to believe again and that Christians would be able to help me answer some of my questions. However all it did was cement my disbelief.

Again I thank you for your response my fr.. oops, I mean; my fellow debater.

Answer what questions, .. that the Christian gods are not real as in scientifically real? No Christian has ever claimed that their god/gods didn't need blind faith to believe in!? So what were you expecting?

You need to stop presuming stuff. That was never my question. I have never asked for scientific proof of God.

I do not want to get into the many different questions I had at the time. I have moved on from there now. I ask a lot of new questions now and a lot of those questions you will see in the forums when specific discussions come up.

I also enjoy debating religion and this is the main reason I do it now. I also have a desire to educate and to expose lies and fantasies that Christians in particular make about their religion. I hope to even make them think about what they believe. Challenge them and try to shake them out of their delusions. I was in it for over 30 years of my life, and I do not want others to waste their time and energies on it. I care.

Same here, the Christian Religion does make up some fantasies and even lies, .. but it's all part of the business. No members - no money, right? This is what competing religions are all about, and it is those magical delusions that they come for. So what, .. you gona tell them they're not real? That would be like going to Disney World and telling people there that Mickey is not a real mouse, or that Donald Duck is not a real duck either.

I agree with you here.

I say: look into the mirror, and then look at you parents, then finally look at the apes.
Now ask yourself: "which image was I formed in?

What apes? You need to specify exactly what type of ape we’re looking at.

Even if we were talking about gorillas or orang-utans, I would be amazed at the similarities, especially when it comes to behaviour and instinct. Just watch a few documentaries and you’ll see just how similar we are. When you really consider it, when we get down to our basic instincts we very much are like gorillas and chimpanzees.

There is definitely many features very similar. Clearly we come from the same ancestry.

What do you mean "came from" the same ancestry? After 13.75 billion years of the universes evolution, and 4.2 billion years of your biological evolution, we have apes in the zoos, along with all the monkeys, so what do you mean 'came from'?

If you have questions about evolution, best go and find these answers yourself. They are out there and easily found if you have an honest desire for truth and not the rubbish that many Christians make up about evolution.

What does your evolution religion teach you as to who you are?

I have no religion. I simply have a belief in evolution due to scientific evidence. But none of that influences how I live my life apart from the understanding that my human nature is responsible for certain urges and desires. I do not study evolutionary works and couldn’t even give a stuff about guys like Charles Darwin. Guys like him were simply guys who came up with theories.

That's right, an animal, an ape. So when you look in the mirror and then look at yourself and your children, then you look at the monkeys and the different apes at the zoo and you see only similarities in both looks and behavior? Oh my Lord!?

Will you stop making incorrect presumptions? No I see more than just that. But it’s quite obvious that we as humans are simply another type of animal. It makes so much more sense than the creationist viewpoint to me now.

Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being?

Is it so shameful to admit that your ancestors were human and not the apes that are locked up at the zoo? Would admitting the obvious huge differences between apes and us humans make you feel insecure? Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being

How about you answer my questions first before asking your own?

I’ll ask them again:

Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being?

Come on, Arian, give me an honest answer. Quit trying to evade the questions.

If any of my children started acting like monkeys around the house, and then keep telling me that they are really animals, apes at that, I would definitely have them checked out for any mental illness. But then this is a free country, we have a right to raise our children in whatever religion we choose, .. right?

Children act like monkeys the day they are born. All you have to do is watch animal documentaries to see that young children exhibit the same behaviour as young apes. It then falls on us the parent to teach them to behave and to overcome that primitive behaviour. No parent refers to their child as mentally ill because they throw a temper tantrum or they exhibit other parts of their animal nature.

Are you that arrogant that you need to put yourself above every other living creature or creature that has ever lived, on this planet? Perhaps you aren’t as special as what you think you are?

My dear Lord, I never thought a day will come when claiming to be a human over animals would be considered arrogance!?

Oh come on. You think you are something superior to animals. You think you are special. You take offence at being considered just another animal. You look down your nose at those who claim you are just a more evolved animal. How is that not arrogant? Why are you so ashamed of being just another animal? A more highly evolved animal?

Perhaps all we are is highly evolved animals and that’s the fact of the matter? Perhaps it’s just something you need to get over?

I'm not the one with identity problems; "perhaps I am this, .. or perhaps I am that?" I know exactly who I am.

So do I. I am just trying to get you to think outside your little bubble.

Born that way? .. you mean women with penises and men with vaginas?

No, but I reckon you know what I mean, you’re just trying to mock as usual.

And I understand if a self proclaiming animal, a human who claims to be an ape wouldn't care for my love and respect. I mean our minds are as different as a humans is from a monkeys. You could nourish, love, take a monkey in your home and treat it as your own child, and one day it could just rip your face off without any warning or logic behind doing it. But hey, that's what we are to expect from animals, right?

Ok, if you’re not gonna take this discussion seriously, I’m done. No one is suggesting taking other apes and trying to make them out to be family members.

When people, I mean humans start believing they are animals, apes at that, one should take a serious look at what they consider 'reality', wouldn't you agree? Even those who start to believe this a LITTLE!

What? By making up stories of magical beings who can make things happen with magic words?

Here is what 'I see in reality', it is also what I have observed over the 59 years, which is that I am very different then the animals, especially those monkeys, those apes locked up in the zoo.
Also, after much observation (what scientists usually do) I have noticed that my mind is who I am, not my fingers, not my teeth, or jaws or anything else that resides in my head like my brain, but that I am my mind. Magical-like I can create, come up with all kinds of different concepts, then send this info to my brain which then relays this info to the rest of my body parts to create these concepts.

That just makes you a more evolved animal like the rest of us.

Then 'reading' the Bible I noticed that God who is mentioned in there is just like me, matter of fact it says that I was actually created by Him (God) IN His Image.

Of course the bible God is just like you, because he is a construct of a human imagination.

But hey, if you understand from observation that you are an animal, an ape, .. what can I say, .. I mean I'm not a doctor to prescribe anything, but my suggestion would be to get help quick before this spreads to other family members.

And of course you were created by magic! Abracadabra! You’re a very special being favoured by some God. How dare anyone suggest that you are just another animal. How dare they!

Oh well, but i really am getting tired of teaching Evolutionist about their magical, long, long time ago evolution fairy tales.

Magical long time ago fairy tales? What like stories of a super powered being saying “abracadabra� and creating things?

Is that how you create things? If not, then why would you say your Creator doing that? There is a lot of 'work' involved in creation, so much so that even God took a 'Day' off.

All God had to do was speak things into existence and they happened. That’s the same as magic. So we have a super powered all knowing magical being who speaks and OUILA! Things are created… OUT OF NOTHING. That just makes soooo much more sense than evolution.

There is no magic involved in evolution. What we have today is the inevitable outcome of a very long journey.

It is that 'Journey', from what I have read that is magical.

There’s nothing magical about it. I shall try to explain using an analogy, all though I’m guessing you won’t read it properly or you’ll just resort to making a mockery of it or try to twist it, but I’ll give it a try.

Imagine you are 10 years old and then one day you wake up and you find that you are 60 years older but have no memory of that past 50 years. You find yourself living (as David Byrne would say) in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife… and you may ask yourself “How did I get here?� It may seem incredible that you could be this person, in this situation. You might even be tempted to say it was God who put you there. How did this happen? Wow!

But then your memories start to return. They start coming into your mind from the age of 10 and the memories continue to play out in your mind, day by day, month by month, year by year and you see all the different paths that you took and the decisions you made which took you to where you are. And then you see that hey… it all makes perfect sense now. It was destiny. I could only have ever traveled one path. I could only ever make one decision at a time, with each decision resulting in an outcome. You see that there is a logical path and that it could have never resulted in any other outcome because you made the decisions you did and took the paths you traveled.

The same applies to evolution. We don’t have to know all the steps in between. All we have to know is that we are here now and that some logical path was followed. One that could have only led us to this moment in time. There is no need to make up stories of magical beings performing magic tricks. There are good reasons why we are at this point. We just don't necessarily know what they are.

It is simply giving into ignorance and ancient thinking, filling in the gaps with “A magical being did it�.

Besides, if it's 'inevitable' why the long, long billions of years journey?

Because these things take time. You don’t just go from point A to point B immediately. If you had an inkling of understanding of evolution you would know this.

why not instant, or 9 months or so? If you are an evolved and evolving creature, then how are you able to debate so quickly?

That would require magic.

Like I said before, you really need to do a little study on evolution and then you will understand why it took so long. Genetic change does not happen that fast.

I’m not saying you have to agree with it. Just try to understand the basic principles so that you won’t sound ignorant when debating against it.

The answer: "Because that's how fairytales are told." and we are not to question them.

What like the ones mentioned in the bible?

But clearly you have no interest in even trying to understand it. I’m guessing because deep down you know that if you really did come to understand it, it would make more sense than magical super powered beings saying “abracadabra� or “let there be light�. I think you are AFRAID to try to understand it. That is why you mock it and deliberately misrepresent it.

The word 'afraid' for me to understand something doesn't exist, unless you can pull some old debates and prove me wrong?

Then please do some study, even just a little, so that you can understand it, so that you won’t have to resort to erecting strawmen and inviting scorn.

Can't you see that it is exactly because I understand the concept that I speak against it with such boldness?

No, your strawmen arguments show me and others that you simply don’t understand. You continue to mock and twist. You continue to use tired old Christian arguments that have been used by other Christians who clearly have no basic understanding of evolution. I used to do the same as you until I made some kind of effort to understand what it is that evolution actually teaches.

Would you like to debate "Let there be light" as I understand the Creation Story vs. Scientific claims of "single celled bacteria popping out of some primordial soup which over exactly 4.2 billion years evolved without a plan, or will but mutated itself into humans who could reason, evolve questions at such alarming speed?

I really am losing interest in debating with you as most of your replies are in a mocking tone and you have no interest in trying to understand.

Do a little reading on evolution, try to understand it and then maybe we can debate.

I’m not even gonna bother responding to your other uninformed statements you made in your last post.

I still love you my friend,

You don’t even know me, so you can hardly claim to love me. Any such claims you make are worthless. Clearly you have no love for me or you wouldn’t be trying to make a mockery of my comments. You would not be trying to twist and turn them like you have.

But I do love you, and if you would just stop claiming the Big-bang Evolution stories as science,

Damn it, I really didn’t want to respond to any more of this, but I just couldn’t let this one go. I have never mentioned anything about the big bang theory. Not once. Take a look back at my posts.

If you had any understanding of evolution, you would know that the Big Bang Theory has nothing to do with evolution. The Big Bang theory is about the origins of the universe, which is a different branch of science altogether. I’m sure people have pointed this out to you before.

I don’t have an opinion on the big bang. I am happy to say I don’t know how the universe got here, but if you can determine how God got here, then you have the answer for how the universe could get here.

And please stop telling me you love me, because you know full well that’s not true. That is a complete lie and I'm happy to call you out on that lie on this forum.

i could walk you through the Creation Story from a scientific POV, for free.

I have no interest in walking through biblical fairy tales and trying to back it up with quasi-science. Especially not with someone who has made no effort to understand basic evolutionary principles.

[arian]

[Replying to post 81 by arian]
Maybe it's just me, but....
I have little difficulty in regarding humans as merely a step up from animals.
In this regard Benis's typology of three basic genetic characteristics comes to mind.

Thank you, I also see it that way, only I see the Creator-Gods doing (as in the Bible), not as the creator-Evolutions result.
One is created by purpose, the other supposedly came about by chaotic, horrific mutation over an extremely long time. (Please see all the Chernobyl experiments/observations being conducted for signs of any 'positive' results of mutation that may be used to justify the Evolution theory. So far we know mutation kills pretty quickly, few years at the most, which is not a very good sign in hoping to justify billions of years of such mutation to result an incredible biological unit as a human body, .. let alone his mind!)

There's the Aggressive gene, found as a stand-alone in about 4% of the population. Of course you have to include incarcerated criminals in your count base, if you get what I mean. I guess I can't point out a country or society where this pure "A" type predominates--a whole country of sociopaths could not function as a society. But it's easy to point out countries where they have more than their share of Aggressives. Try the Middle East, where I'll bet Benis could find lots of them fighting for ISIL, Al-Qaeda, the Taliban, and Boko Haran (whoops, that last one is in Africa--but they've pledged their allegiance to one of the foregoing, ISIL I guess). We don't need to blame Mohammed, the Koran, and Islam necessarily (though I tend to myself), but Islam could not so rapidly have spread from its origin among Aggressive types in Arabia unless it had had all those "A" types there to want to fight and die for Allah.
Oh, animals, almost forgot. Benis says baboons are pure type "A". They're not as big as we humans are, but a pack of them working you over would not be good!

Benis's next main genetic type is the Narcissist "N" type. Though these people always think of themselves before they consider anyone else, whole societies of them can exist. Benis points out Oceania where Polynesians live. Not that these fellows can't be mean and fearsome. Their wars in Hawaii and (less well documented) Easter Island are famous. I'm not sure they included cannibals--that probably was farther south and west among the Melanesians or Micronesians, not the more pure Polynesians farther east. Benis also finds simple Narcissist types among Arctic aborigines, particularly in the far north of Russia and Siberia. I guess having a happy smile all the time makes bearable such a miserable environment where you get midnight Sun alternating with winters -40 or worse!
Oh, Benis says cats are Narcissists. We always have cats at our house and yeah, they think only of themselves. A really strange claim he makes is that royals (kings, queens, etc.) tend to be pure Narcissists. I would have thought one would need to have a lot of Aggression in one's heredity to fight to the top of the pile.

The third genetic type Benis teaches is the Perfectionist P type. Strangely enough this type cannot exist as a pure P because it's one of those examples of a fatal gene--no baby homozygous for P can survive long enough to be born. So it's only found among us in combination with the others. There are NP types (endemic in China and among nerds), PA types (found among Authoritarian societies like in central Asia), and NPA types (predominating in Western Europe), Chimpanzees are NPA types, Gorillas are NPs and baboons are PA--I think I told you above in error that baboons are A types, but I can't remember for sure and can't think what Benis gave as the best animal example of an A Aggressive type. Snakes? Yikes!

Like I said, thanks for that info, it is very interesting. It is as if our Creator made the animals first, and like an artist, expressed a little bit of His innermost self in each animal before He went on to the big project, 'man'. And your above mentioned observations by Mr. Benis proves this.
Those different animal characteristics do show up in man.

Same like us human car builders, you can see the 'Ford' in models way after the creator Ford passed away. This also proves we are very much created in our Creators image.

So I really have no trouble likening us to animals. Sorry arian.

Oh no don't be silly, why would you be sorry? I never denied that we have characteristics of animals, and not just the apes, but bees, birds, ants, and all kinds of other insects. That's why I love to watch nature documentaries, like the March of the Penguins, I mean it is mind boggling to have these Penguins march way out in nowhere, in the harshest coldest parts of the earth for what? To lay their delicate eggs, their offspring. I watch that and I could see under the harshness I was born, and how I survived against unimaginable odds, .. just like that.

So yes, I believe observing animals characteristics, their biological make up and their behavior can help us come to our senses, remind us of our purpose, and how to achieve our goals, each individual goal can be better achieved if we considered the animals. Like after a storm, or that last big Tsunami, even though the destruction seems beyond repair, we come together as ants and before you know it the city is re-inhabited and the roads, businesses are alive again.

I love it, thank you.

(Why do I now sound like Greg Laurie in my head saying what I myself said above? Am I as insufferable as a Greg-Laurie-preacher-type myself? Heaven forbid!)
EDITED TO ADD:
I think I've figured out my newly adopted style--lots of the Christians I commend on DC&R here argue, sound to me like Greg Laurie. No, not ALL of them, just some of them. I'd like to name them, but I'm already Under Probation. They're some of my favorites, but they just go TOO FAR.

Yes, it is a shame we cannot be a little more personal regarding our fellow Debaters. Each of us are unique and have distinct characteristics we could identify with some group of insect, or animal. Debate would be so much more interesting and more tolerable once we identified, recognized each debaters character.

But you see that's why the Forum is so carefully monitored by a select few, to keep it impersonal. to de-humanize, or remove that human aspect which makes it easier to control us by. In the concentration camps they gave us numbers, here we can choose a bunch of letters. Same concept, only not nearly that extreme. But as you can see, this means more Warnings must be dealt out to keep us in line.

If you looked you'll see that most of the Warnings are about "Personal comments", and 'Questioning Moderators decisions', does that bring up some old memories?

Oh well, I just ask that the Lords will be done.

[arian]

You need to stop presuming stuff. That was never my question. I have never asked for scientific proof of God.

I do not want to get into the many different questions I had at the time. I have moved on from there now. I ask a lot of new questions now and a lot of those questions you will see in the forums when specific discussions come up.

Oh, .. so you're not interested in any real proof of God, so I'll answer this last post, and then were done on the subject of God, Evolution, the Bible etc. since I am here only to learn all I can about my Creator, which you are not even interested to know!?!?

What do you mean "came from" the same ancestry? After 13.75 billion years of the universes evolution, and 4.2 billion years of your biological evolution, we have apes in the zoos, along with all the monkeys, so what do you mean 'came from'?

If you have questions about evolution, best go and find these answers yourself. They are out there and easily found if you have an honest desire for truth and not the rubbish that many Christians make up about evolution.

Won't that be like me telling you regarding a question I couldn't answer you about the Bible, or God, to go "and find these answers yourself. They are out there and easily found if you have an honest desire for truth and not the rubbish that many atheists and Evolutionists make up about Creation, God and the Bible." ??

What does your evolution religion teach you as to who you are?

I have no religion. I simply have a belief in evolution due to scientific evidence.

Please forgive me but Darwin never witnessed Evolution of one species evolving into another. All he did was point out some similarities in animals, .. that's it. Whoop-ti-du!?

If I was to point out some similarities in Ford cars, what big deal would that be? Then as I traveled the world and in Italy I notice that a car called a Ferrari has a gas engine too! Would this mean the Ford car evolved over billions of years because in Italy I have noticed a very different but similar car with an engine also! Hey, it is my scientific observation, and the evidence is right there, a Ford, and a Ferrari! (please don't say that there is a difference because animals are biological and cars are made out of stuff we take out of rocks, .. because as you well know Evolution claims that biological life came from a rock. A sweating rock.

You see the scientific evidence is that there is a lizard, and that there is a bird, but NOT that the lizard evolved over billions and billions of years into a bird. No scientific evidence has ever come from such observation., .. because no one has ever observed such a thing. This is why they say it happened over billions of years. The same with any fairytale, so the children wouldn't ask what, why and where, the story teller says; "it happened a long, long time ago in a land far, far away".

But none of that influences how I live my life apart from the understanding that my human nature is responsible for certain urges and desires. I do not study evolutionary works and couldn’t even give a stuff about guys like Charles Darwin. Guys like him were simply guys who came up with theories.

Again, Darwin never came up with any theories, only stories, .. Big Difference! One has to actually observe an animal mutating into another before we can call it a 'theory'.

That's right, an animal, an ape. So when you look in the mirror and then look at yourself and your children, then you look at the monkeys and the different apes at the zoo and you see only similarities in both looks and behavior? Oh my Lord!?

Will you stop making incorrect presumptions? No I see more than just that. But it’s quite obvious that we as humans are simply another type of animal. It makes so much more sense than the creationist viewpoint to me now.

You didn't answer my question.
Besides, so if I say "I came from the Planet Cruton, and I am a Zwaglack, and this makes a lot more sense to me than that we humans mutated out of a sweaty rock" what debating sense would that make?
I know, only atheists and Evolutionist can repeatedly get away with this here, but us Christians, we are required to show evidence, or are asked to retracts our comments. When we show evidence, it doesn't qualify as as evidence simply because it contradicts the Big-bang Evolution fairytales which are considered as scientific fact by atheists.

Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being?

Is it so shameful to admit that your ancestors were human and not the apes that are locked up at the zoo? Would admitting the obvious huge differences between apes and us humans make you feel insecure? Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being

How about you answer my questions first before asking your own?

I’ll ask them again:

Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being?

Come on, Arian, give me an honest answer. Quit trying to evade the questions

I have already told you that we all came from Adam and Eve, all of us white, black yellow, red, all from similar ancestors. But like during the Holocaust to be likened to vermin, rats as our Jewish ancestors, yes, not only is it shameful, but insulting. I am not an animal OnceConvinced, so please be more civil in your debates.

If any of my children started acting like monkeys around the house, and then keep telling me that they are really animals, apes at that, I would definitely have them checked out for any mental illness. But then this is a free country, we have a right to raise our children in whatever religion we choose, .. right?

Children act like monkeys the day they are born. All you have to do is watch animal documentaries to see that young children exhibit the same behaviour as young apes. It then falls on us the parent to teach them to behave and to overcome that primitive behaviour. No parent refers to their child as mentally ill because they throw a temper tantrum or they exhibit other parts of their animal nature.

Besides that comment being insulting, it assumes that I'm some kind of idiot who can't tell my own children apart from apes at the zoo.

So if I swung my newborn over my shoulders onto my back before I swung from my treehouse, he would naturally just hold on like other apes do?
Dogs throw temper tantrums, and my kids used to bark, would that also be considered primitive behavior? So would you suggest the human animals who are raising young-ones to keep rolled up newspapers around??

Are you that arrogant that you need to put yourself above every other living creature or creature that has ever lived, on this planet? Perhaps you aren’t as special as what you think you are?

My dear Lord, I never thought a day will come when claiming to be a human over animals would be considered arrogance!?

Oh come on. You think you are something superior to animals. You think you are special. You take offence at being considered just another animal.[

I find it extremely insulting. Sure you could compare me to a short big bellied little Panda, I would even laugh along with you. Or my children acting like monkeys, heck I'm sure I've said that many times to them. But when a bunch of my Jewish ancestors were rounded up into cattle cars (yes cattle cars, you know like in animal cattle) and in News reals depicted as actual animals, vermin rats, .. that needed to be exterminated and used a type of rat poison to actually exterminate us, well I no longer take those comments as a joke. And from your repeated insistence that I accept that me, my children and my ancestors were animals, apes at that, it is very insulting.

It's one thing for Disney to tell my children stories of Mickey Mouse, but to actually try to convince them that they are mice or rats or apes, and round them up into cattle cars, and do experiments on them as lab-rats that is another story.

If I can no longer legally call a man wearing a dress a man, because that would be very rude of me and would be considered a hate crime,, then just think what you are saying here!?
So either retract you insults buddy, or I will report you to the Moderators! for further disciplinary action!

Ha, ha, ha, .. see how funny and even ironic that would be? I mean imagine me complaining to Moderators who are also trying to convince me to accept the FACT (lol) that me and my loved ones are animals too?
Besides, you know I would never report you (or anyone here) for simply expressing what and how you believe. That's why I'm here debating with you, I want to hear your opinions, .. ALL your opinions including the passion in your disapprovals, your "Tired of the Nonsense" comments, and I love you for it! (Actually we had a debater named "Tired of the Nonsense", .. I wonder what happened to him?)

You look down your nose at those who claim you are just a more evolved animal. How is that not arrogant? Why are you so ashamed of being just another animal? A more highly evolved animal?

I know buddy, it's what you believe, it's your religious beliefs and I honestly wouldn't mind you telling me that, we could just go on debating it like any other religion.

But you see I know why evolution was invented, and I have 6,000,000 of my relatives Jews from my mother side who were identified as animals, rounded up as animals, treated like animals, done experiments on just like they do on animals, and finally exterminated like animals. I don't look down on those who labeled us animals, I don't claim to be superior to them, its actually the opposite, they (all Evolutionists) look down on me, and show superiority over me, insisting that I accept that I am nothing but an animal, a frikin' ape, no mind just acting on instinct from spasms from my brain!
I am not ashamed of having Jew in me, but I will not tolerate being reduced to an animal either. Not with so much evidence both historical and actual as to why they call me, and all people of color, especially in poorer nations animals.

Perhaps all we are is highly evolved animals and that’s the fact of the matter? Perhaps it’s just something you need to get over?

I'm not the one with identity problems; "perhaps I am this, .. or perhaps I am that?" I know exactly who I am.

So do I. I am just trying to get you to think outside your little bubble.

More like you are trying to lock me in an animal cage, like they do apes at the zoo.
I explained to you that I know who I am, a human created in my Creators image. I am a spirit/mind residing in a physical body, my mind is not in some religious bubble, but is as free as the vastness of space, it is infinitely eternal. So how in the world would you free someone like me by insisting that I accept being an animal with no purpose, no plan, no true free will, just the result of some chaotic cosmic accident? Get serious my friend, I'm more on to you and your mind controlling buddies than you think.
But I am praying for you all, I really am that God would drop those chains from your ankles, swing those prison gates open for you so your minds could be free to see who you are and who your Maker is.

Born that way? .. you mean women with penises and men with vaginas?

No, but I reckon you know what I mean, you’re just trying to mock as usual.

?

And I understand if a self proclaiming animal, a human who claims to be an ape wouldn't care for my love and respect. I mean our minds are as different as a humans is from a monkeys. You could nourish, love, take a monkey in your home and treat it as your own child, and one day it could just rip your face off without any warning or logic behind doing it. But hey, that's what we are to expect from animals, right?

Ok, if you’re not gonna take this discussion seriously, I’m done. No one is suggesting taking other apes and trying to make them out to be family members.

What are you, by your own admission?
an animal, an ape right?
Who is your family, .. your ancestors all the way back for millions of years?
Apes, animals just like those apes we see today locked up in the zoos. It's all there in every Evolution religious books; pictures of apes, gorillas, chimps, and occasionally pictures of some poor hard working South American farmer couple.
How long have these apes been evolving?
for 4.2 billion years to the minute, just like you.
What environment they evolved in?
Same like you.
Now where do you and other Evolutionists keep your cousins?
In cages. I didn't say 'make them out to be family members' I know that they are your family members. What I am wondering is why you would keep them locked up at the zoo instead of bringing them home with you? Why do you look so down on family to keep them in cages, sleeping on cement instead on a nice Sealy mattress with sheets?

So don't tell me I'm the one discriminating or looking down on people, look how you treat your own family first before you accuse someone.

When people, I mean humans start believing they are animals, apes at that, one should take a serious look at what they consider 'reality', wouldn't you agree? Even those who start to believe this a LITTLE!

What? By making up stories of magical beings who can make things happen with magic words?

What, magic words, .. are you kidding me?
Have you ever considered the complexity of words? I mean we are communicating with God for Pete sake. The Creator Himself! You cant possibly imagine the level we are communicating on, the complexity would boggle any brain. (that's why I use my mind, I'd burn up my brain real quick. Not to mention if I had to wait billions of evolution years to evolve this imagination!?)

Just look how much we can achieve with the binary code? And that's just two numbers 1's and 0's. Now imagine a code not just with 30 to 45 letters (that make up languages) but millions of words, some with dozens of different meanings!??

If we can 'create' order and make programs with pictures and mathematical equations that make sense, and even help us in figuring things out just by these two numbers 1 and 0, .. then imagine the Power in Gods Word!

But if you guys can't even imagine my clear scientific description of 'nothing' and why it is so important in keeping the universe from being just one great lump or ball, then you would never be able to actually see the Power in 'Word'. And come to think of it, it is actually the binary code that is magic, it mimics reality. It's not real but just magic. What is real is "Gods Word". It doesn't use things from reality to create an illusion like the binary code does with 1 and 0, words Create Reality!

All God had to do was speak things into existence and they happened. That’s the same as magic. So we have a super powered all knowing magical being who speaks and OUILA! Things are created… OUT OF NOTHING. That just makes soooo much more sense than evolution.

I just explained how, and yes God speaks things into existence, or into a form of reality we can recognize, like this universe for instance. And it's never ever OUT OF NOTHING, that's silly. I shown you the existence of nothing, and what God uses it for, and it's not something He pulls things 'out of', but to keep things separated.

But anyways, if we can replicate a virtual world, or a brain down to it's molecular level, then imagine what God can do using words?

Look, I'm not even going to comment on the other option, this BB Evolution story cause the religious folk would get offended.

I mean you cannot create an artificial Big-bang even on the magical computer with the magical 1's and 0's, so how would that work to create reality as complex as we have it today without a programmer (no Creator), no plan, and him not even willing to do it (no will of anyone)?

But still I'm a compassionate insect, .. err guy, I'll allow both a computer, a programmer, and let's see if he could create a Big-bang?
This is how you would have to create a Big bang on a computer: Find that basic God-particle, and put it in the screen. Now remember you cannot run your clock, so there is no time. You cannot have space around this God-particle/wave or whatever you want to call it to expand into, but you must wait for this particle to create space within itself to expand into!
So the programmer must create a non-space, non-time, a pre-Planck epoch situation where only the quantum speck God-particle exists. And since there is no time yet, this quantum speck God-particle must do that too, which would have to come from pure chance. lol, .. oops sorry, I was just thinking how one object like the quantum speck, in nothing, no time could create 'chance'??

Now let's see a programmer do that, only let me supervise this Event, I wouldn't want to miss witnessing the Big-bang even if it's just a simulation?



-------------------------------------------------------

There is no magic involved in evolution. What we have today is the inevitable outcome of a very long journey.

It is that 'Journey', from what I have read that is magical.

There’s nothing magical about it. I shall try to explain using an analogy, all though I’m guessing you won’t read it properly or you’ll just resort to making a mockery of it or try to twist it, but I’ll give it a try.

No, I would never mock an honest analogy from fellow debaters. I only mock science fiction facts, (see what I mean?)
13.75 billion years of scientific observation (otherwise it couldn't be labeled science) of the expansion, formation of the universe and everything in it that we can now observe, not as single celled bacteria, but as full-grown human beings that we are.
It just asks to be ridiculed, and so far every apologetic they came up with is ridiculous including the theory of relativity.

What you are doing here is different, it is how you understand all this, and I will try my darnnest to respond respectfully, I promise.

Imagine you are 10 years old and then one day you wake up and you find that you are 60 years older but have no memory of that past 50 years.

Thank you.

OK, so I am imagining I am 10 years old, got it. So here I am moping around in my beautiful house helping set the table with my beautiful wife, suddenly I'm thrown back, and in confusion I start to stare at my beautiful wife, kids, house, and I say: "How did I get here?"
(you won't believe how close this is to what happened to me about 7 years ago. For 40 years I had the horrors of the first 12 years of my life blocked out, and now it started to appear slowly, from as young as a baby ..)
.. anyways, this seems that I just lost 50 years of memory of my life, but it starts to slowly come back, .. is this correct?
Why is me being 10 years old significant? Is it because right now I can still remember everything up till I was 10, and only the 50 is missing?

You find yourself living (as David Byrne would say) in a beautiful house, with a beautiful wife… and you may ask yourself “How did I get here?� It may seem incredible that you could be this person, in this situation. You might even be tempted to say it was God who put you there. How did this happen? Wow!

Lol, I used to love that song.
OK got it, I look around and I'm missing 50 years of memory of my life, Wow is right!

But then your memories start to return. They start coming into your mind from the age of 10 and the memories continue to play out in your mind, day by day, month by month, year by year and you see all the different paths that you took and the decisions you made which took you to where you are. And then you see that hey… it all makes perfect sense now. It was destiny.

Cool, I love it so far.

But what do you mean it was destiny? I took those different paths, I made those choices from the many I had each time. I remember taking my beautiful wife house shopping and how she looked at 20 different houses before she settled for this one.
My job, how my boss wanted to make me his partner, actually his son, but I would have had to back up his lies to get the jobs, the big contracts, and because I refused, he made it tough for me so I quit. I remember all those real tough decisions, and how broke I was because jobs at that time were scarce, while if I stayed and become his son, I would of live like a king. So not destiny, but choices that I made that brought me to this point, I made my own destiny.

I could only have ever traveled one path. I could only ever make one decision at a time, with each decision resulting in an outcome. You see that there is a logical path and that it could have never resulted in any other outcome because you made the decisions you did and took the paths you traveled.

Yes I only traveled the path that I decided at the time to be the most honest one, not necessarily the best one. I also realized later where the other path would have taken me, rich, cars, women galore, but spiritually dead. Most likely a lot of drugs to numb the guilty conscience haunting me.
But now that I look back, hey, God still blessed me and I still have a beautiful house, a beautiful wife, kids, good kids too, and smart. So no regrets, but thankfulness.
Oh yea, and I could still take other paths, still have to make critical decisions. Things just don't fall in my lap, if you know what I mean?

The same applies to evolution. We don’t have to know all the steps in between. All we have to know is that we are here now and that some logical path was followed. One that could have only led us to this moment in time.

OK, I understand what you were getting at, but honestly how would that fit?

Question; what am I at 10, a single celled bacteria, a tadpole starring out of the primordial soup up at a banana tree trying to decide to become a Giraffe, or a monkey so I could reach those bananas? Or am I a lizard practicing running on two legs, .. what?

I mean in your analogy I realized that as a human I made a lot of plans, decisions, made a lot of choices and that's what brought me to where I am now. I can also look back and see where those other choices would have lead me, also I still can make those choices I missed out on. I am not a victim of circumstance, ..

But in evolution there are no plans, no decisions, no choices to be made by the evolving biological life. If Mother nature decided to mutate/evolve my eyes on the bottom of my feet, hey tough, .. you know what I mean? Am I still being fair here?

There is no need to make up stories of magical beings performing magic tricks.

Well not when we have analogies like these, .. sorry, but the way I see it is that it would take a lot of magic to make this analogy work with evolution.

Oh yea, .. can you refresh me on the magical beings doing magic tricks? You lost me there?

There are good reasons why we are at this point. We just don't necessarily know what they are.

Yes, as a Christian Believer because of the evidence with substance that was presented to me throughout my life I know very well why we are at this point, including why we are sick, aching and all of us slowly dying, .. instead of where I know we could be, living in a Garden of Paradise, naked, no shoes, no bills, no one poisoning my food at restaurants, no GMO, no deadly chemicals in the air to breath in, but sheer joy and enjoyment of life, .. eternal life.

Evolution specifically says that there are no 'reasons' good or bad in evolution, no plan, no ones design or will, it is what it is.

It is simply giving into ignorance and ancient thinking, filling in the gaps with “A magical being did it�.

I'm serious, one day you will have to introduce me to this 'magical being' that could pop universe out of nothing? So far no one could show me?

Wait, is it in Anton Szandor Lavey's Satanic Bible? If you could show me in there where this magical being is, you could use that on this site as authority over the Bibles description of creation.
I guess now anyone could use any source to interpret God, His Son Jesus Christ, Heaven or hell whether Jesus existed or not etc. .. other than the Bible, and if they label it 'science', then it is fact.
Actually I noticed that Biblical quotes are slowly being weeded out on this Forum, .. the Moderators just don't find it trustable anymore with all the fairytale stories they say are in there!? Don't even have to show the specific fairytales, one out of context blanket statement can cover the whole Bible.

Besides, if it's 'inevitable' why the long, long billions of years journey?

Because these things take time. You don’t just go from point A to point B immediately. If you had an inkling of understanding of evolution you would know this.

Oh I understand, just can't accept, not as truth explaining how the universe/man was creased. As a long, complicated and confusing sci-fi fairytale, sure.

Please tell me; Is a woman getting pregnant, and 9 months later giving birth to a functioning, all parts in place and working human baby part of 'evolution'? Did the baby evolve from a single cell to trillions of cells, or is magic involved?

Because from one cell, to 100's of trillions of sells accumulating in just the right sequence to create a human baby in less then 36 weeks is fast, .. really, really fast when considering the first model took 4.2 billion years to mutate!?

why not instant, or 9 months or so? If you are an evolved and evolving creature, then how are you able to debate so quickly?

That would require magic.

Like I said before, you really need to do a little study on evolution and then you will understand why it took so long. Genetic change does not happen that fast.

What do you mean, .. look at the baby? A new model complete different then the parents (where both like spinach, yet the child hates spinach, they both like Michigan, but the child hates Michigan and lives in Arizona, and many other differences) in only 36 weeks.

I’m not saying you have to agree with it. Just try to understand the basic principles so that you won’t sound ignorant when debating against it.

The only time I would sound ignorant is when I would be teaching this story to my children as if it was true, not when I debate against it.
You know, like if I were to dress up one Christmas and pretended that I just slid down the microwave went (we don't have a chimney) and said to my sixteen year olds: "Ho, Ho, Ho, I'm Santa Claus here to bring you your presents!" Which reaction would be the smarter; If they laughed at me and said 'oh stop it dad, you are being ridiculous', .. or if they believed me and cheered?

Unfortunately there are at least a billion parents out there that would judge my kids denial of me being Santa Claus as ignorance, even hateful and anti-Christian.

The answer: "Because that's how fairytales are told." and we are not to question them.

What like the ones mentioned in the bible?

The Bible presents God our Creator, creation, the consequences in breaking rules that God so carefully put in place as fact.

Not starts off with an assumption that; "If, the universe is expanding, THEN at one time it must have been a quantum speck of we don't know what, with no center, floating in nothing, .. because that's just scientific fact that it resides and may even have popped out of nothing, and the suddenly (for no apparent reason) expanded into itself making room in itself to expand into. Now as it expanded, it created a watch with two hands that go round and around (that describes time) which we call time. But it's really there this 'time', on walls, on peoples hands, in pockets, and exists as another dimension, .. really, because Einstein said it, and he was so smart that if anyone disagrees with him, is automatically called stupid, hater of science, into magical thinking, and a hater of real-people, like gays for instance!

But clearly you have no interest in even trying to understand it. I’m guessing because deep down you know that if you really did come to understand it, it would make more sense than magical super powered beings saying “abracadabra� or “let there be light�. I think you are AFRAID to try to understand it. That is why you mock it and deliberately misrepresent it.

The word 'afraid' for me to understand something doesn't exist, unless you can pull some old debates and prove me wrong?

Then please do some study, even just a little, so that you can understand it, so that you won’t have to resort to erecting strawmen and inviting scorn.

Do you really want to challenge me on the Big Bang Evolution theory if I understand it or not?

Remember what these theories are about first, we are not going to debate the story just as I wouldn't debate the Story of Peter Pan, or The Santa Claus book for why would I refute a story book? But the actual claim like; "This is how the universe and human life came to be", and then you can use whatever scientific data you can find to justify your claims.

The claims have to fit the description of what science is, which is "observing the world around us", not; "Well, if we assume that the universe was expanding, the next logical conclusion would be that at one time, ... oooh about 6, 10, 13, .. 14 billion years ago it must of been a quantum speck this size!" and this while having absolutely no idea how big it is now. Or if it's expanding or retracting/imploding, or what? .. so we'll go step by step with every claim, all the way to earth being formed by gasses, meteors knocking a big chunk of it to make the moon, throw it in ormit at the perfect location and distance, everything .. are you in?

Can't you see that it is exactly because I understand the concept that I speak against it with such boldness?

No, your strawmen arguments show me and others that you simply don’t understand. You continue to mock and twist. You continue to use tired old Christian arguments that have been used by other Christians who clearly have no basic understanding of evolution. I used to do the same as you until I made some kind of effort to understand what it is that evolution actually teaches.

OK then, I will show you, I will use only my common sense to analyze your claims on ONE theory; 'Evolution' starting with the cosmological theory that starts with a Big-bang and we'll end it with biological human animal apes. Agreed? It's all Evolution, one cannot exist without the other.

]Damn it, I really didn’t want to respond to any more of this, but I just couldn’t let this one go. I have never mentioned anything about the big bang theory. Not once. Take a look back at my posts.

If you had any understanding of evolution, you would know that the Big Bang Theory has nothing to do with evolution. The Big Bang theory is about the origins of the universe, which is a different branch of science altogether. I’m sure people have pointed this out to you before.

yes they did point that out to me, and as I went back to study them both, I learned that the earth has evolved from the primordial gasses that evolved from the quantum speck of whatever after it Big-banged. AS the universe was cooling, this rock we call earth also cooled, and it created moisture on its surface which for some miraculous reason didn't evaporate as it was producing this moisture/steam, instead, as it started to sweat, over millions of years these tiny drops accumulated way, way up there in dead space (not on top of the rock where the gravity is the strongest), but way up there, .. tiny fog like drop at a time held in place by the weaker gravity, while still accumulating oceans of water on earth.

You see if you can convince me how the earth formed, cooled and kept water (oh yea, I don't want to hear about the existing oceans and weather patterns God put in place, I want to start at the first steam coming off the hot rock as it went up into space, and explain to me how it just got stuck way up there without boiling and disappearing into dead space?)

So it has to be one, "From The Beginning, ..In the Beginning"

I don’t have an opinion on the big bang. I am happy to say I don’t know how the universe got here, but if you can determine how God got here, then you have the answer for how the universe could get here.

We can even skip over how the speck got here, let's start with earth still hot and stated cooling.

I explained who God is in Z's "Undeniable and scientific Evidence of the Creator", which is obviously denied by the atheists.

And please stop telling me you love me, because you know full well that’s not true. That is a complete lie and I'm happy to call you out on that lie on this forum.

Fine, I already told you I won't say it, but it's something I got used to so it slips sometimes. I will try to contain myself more next time.

i could walk you through the Creation Story from a scientific POV, for free.

I have no interest in walking through biblical fairy tales and trying to back it up with quasi-science. Especially not with someone who has made no effort to understand basic evolutionary principles.

Big bang evolution stories and real science don't mix, and you should know that by now. I shown it from actual definitions of science compared with how those stories originated. I have shown that the BB-Evolution stories are religions, created by a religious priest. Science fiction at best.

Take care fellow Debater. Sorry for the long post, you can pick and choose what you want to answer.

[OnceConvinced]

I've just left out most of the stuff relating to the big bang as I don't have any strong opinions on it. As far as I'm concerned evolution is about how life evolved, not how it started.

Oh, .. so you're not interested in any real proof of God,

Of course I am interested in real proof of God but it will take more than some guy on a website claiming to be a Christian who claims to know stuff and can’t produce any hard evidence to back up what he says. I would also need evidence outside of the bible, because the bible is clearly just fallible man’s take on things.

so I'll answer this last post, and then were done on the subject of God, Evolution, the Bible etc. since I am here only to learn all I can about my Creator, which you are not even interested to know!?!?

I am interested in any convincing evidence there is of a god, but would also need to know exactly which god it is out of the thousands it is. I’m guessing you will claim it’s your specific god even though you have no hard evidence to back it up.

I would also need some hard evidence that you are in fact a spokesperson for this god and that you indeed know this god and that what you are saying is in fact what this god would want you to say. Once gain the bible is not going to help you with that. I would also have to ask why it is he needs you to do the talking and convincing for him?

What do you mean "came from" the same ancestry? After 13.75 billion years of the universes evolution, and 4.2 billion years of your biological evolution, we have apes in the zoos, along with all the monkeys, so what do you mean 'came from'?

If you have questions about evolution, best go and find these answers yourself. They are out there and easily found if you have an honest desire for truth and not the rubbish that many Christians make up about evolution.

Won't that be like me telling you regarding a question I couldn't answer you about the Bible, or God, to go "and find these answers yourself. They are out there and easily found if you have an honest desire for truth and not the rubbish that many atheists and Evolutionists make up about Creation, God and the Bible." ??

Err no, because I’ve already studied the bible and know what it says. I know what Christians believe. I know what they claim. However that cannot be said for you and evolution. You make claims about what evolutionists believe that aren’t even what evolutionists believe.

Please forgive me but Darwin never witnessed Evolution of one species evolving into another. All he did was point out some similarities in animals, .. that's it. Whoop-ti-du!?

Why would I care what Darwin saw or didn’t see? We can see evidence of evolution happening on his planet now. I see many examples of it. It’s obviously happening.

Nobody was ever around to witness God create the earth either. However we never see any examples of things being created with magic words. It just doesn’t happen.

If I was to point out some similarities in Ford cars, what big deal would that be? Then as I traveled the world and in Italy I notice that a car called a Ferrari has a gas engine too! Would this mean the Ford car evolved over billions of years because in Italy I have noticed a very different but similar car with an engine also! Hey, it is my scientific observation, and the evidence is right there, a Ford, and a Ferrari! (please don't say that there is a difference because animals are biological and cars are made out of stuff we take out of rocks, .. because as you well know Evolution claims that biological life came from a rock. A sweating rock.

But I WILL point out that cars are not biological because it is a CRUCIAL factor in evolution. We’re not talking about abiogenisis here. (the first appearance of life) We’re talking about evolution. Two different things. Which evolutionist has ever said that life came from a rock? Once again you are showing that you haven’t really done your homework on evolution.

You see the scientific evidence is that there is a lizard, and that there is a bird, but NOT that the lizard evolved over billions and billions of years into a bird. No scientific evidence has ever come from such observation., .. because no one has ever observed such a thing. This is why they say it happened over billions of years. The same with any fairytale, so the children wouldn't ask what, why and where, the story teller says; "it happened a long, long time ago in a land far, far away".

What I believe is that life or life giving sources, always existed in some form or another. I don’t concern myself how it got there, because something had to be there. Otherwise how would we exist? I can believe that primitive life began to evolve. These basic lifeforms went on to become different species. So no you would never have a lizard turning into a bird. That’s just silly. The basic building blocks of life branched out into different paths, causing various species to evolve into what we have today. I can believe that because we see it in this world with things like bacteria, virus’s and even more complex creatures.. Even humans!

To me this makes way more sense than some magical super powered being who was always just there who can conjure things up with magic words. WAY more sense.

But none of that influences how I live my life apart from the understanding that my human nature is responsible for certain urges and desires. I do not study evolutionary works and couldn’t even give a stuff about guys like Charles Darwin. Guys like him were simply guys who came up with theories.

Again, Darwin never came up with any theories, only stories, .. Big Difference!

No, he came up with THEORIES. You can call them stories if you like, but they’re more than that. A lot of what we have today is because scientists took these theories and worked with them.

One has to actually observe an animal mutating into another before we can call it a 'theory'.p

There may be some evolutionists who believe species evolved into other species. I however do not believe that.

That's right, an animal, an ape. So when you look in the mirror and then look at yourself and your children, then you look at the monkeys and the different apes at the zoo and you see only similarities in both looks and behavior? Oh my Lord!?

Will you stop making incorrect presumptions? No I see more than just that. But it’s quite obvious that we as humans are simply another type of animal. It makes so much more sense than the creationist viewpoint to me now.

You didn't answer my question.

I answered your question. I said “No, I see more than just that.�

Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being?

Is it so shameful to admit that your ancestors were human and not the apes that are locked up at the zoo? Would admitting the obvious huge differences between apes and us humans make you feel insecure? Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being

How about you answer my questions first before asking your own?

I’ll ask them again:

Is it really so shameful to admit that we might come from similar ancestors? Would that make you insecure as a human being?

Come on, Arian, give me an honest answer. Quit trying to evade the questions

I have already told you that we all came from Adam and Eve, all of us white, black yellow, red, all from similar ancestors. But like during the Holocaust to be likened to vermin, rats as our Jewish ancestors, yes, not only is it shameful, but insulting. I am not an animal OnceConvinced, so please be more civil in your debates.

I am not comparing you to vermin or rats. I am pointing to known facts that we are a species of animal. Some animals are more disgusting, more lowly. We are a higher form of animal. There’s nothing insulting about that. If you think I am not being civil then please report this to the moderators. Do you really think they’d take you seriously.

If any of my children started acting like monkeys around the house, and then keep telling me that they are really animals, apes at that, I would definitely have them checked out for any mental illness. But then this is a free country, we have a right to raise our children in whatever religion we choose, .. right?

Children act like monkeys the day they are born. All you have to do is watch animal documentaries to see that young children exhibit the same behaviour as young apes. It then falls on us the parent to teach them to behave and to overcome that primitive behaviour. No parent refers to their child as mentally ill because they throw a temper tantrum or they exhibit other parts of their animal nature.

Besides that comment being insulting, it assumes that I'm some kind of idiot who can't tell my own children apart from apes at the zoo.

It’s not insulting. It’s a fact. If you have had kids you would know that yourself. They act like chimpanzees. And of course they are different to apes at a zoo, because you as a parent are teaching them not to behave like those apes. But just look at those humans who grow up without decent parenting. What do they do? They become like animals. Like gorillas. Just look at a street gang. There is so much similarity in culture when it comes to humans and other great apes it’s not funny.

Just look at how women are attracted to bad boys. Because the biggest meanest ape is the one who gets the chicks. It’s always been that way. Who’s the one in charge? The most arrogant, the most domineering. Either that or it’s the one who can manipulate and control others the best. Just like in the animal kingdom. It’s all just so similar.

The more evolved species though, learns to repress their animal urges. They learn not to strike out in anger like an angry gorilla. They learn not to rape whichever woman they want. They learn not to steal off another. They have stronger ethics and principals unlike some other members of the human race.

So if I swung my newborn over my shoulders onto my back before I swung from my treehouse, he would naturally just hold on like other apes do?

We as humans have lost a lot of skills that we no longer use. That’s evolution for you. We have no need to cling to our mother’s backs because they no longer swing through trees on vines if we ever did at all. All we have to do is be helpless and cry and our mother will come running.

But yet we still have a tailbone. Why is that? Because once we needed a tail. Now we don’t. We’ve evolved. The need for a tail was lost.

Dogs throw temper tantrums, and my kids used to bark, would that also be considered primitive behavior?

It’s what primates do. They “ape� what they see in others. There is an example of a child in Ukraine that used to spend all her time with dogs. This kid started to act like a dog. Run like a dog. Bark like a dog. This child didn’t have the parents there to teach her how she should behave so she just copied off the animals she spent all her time with. Once she was taken out of that environment she had to be taught how to behave like a human.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxana_Malaya

If I can no longer legally call a man wearing a dress a man, because that would be very rude of me and would be considered a hate crime,, then just think what you are saying here!?

What has that got to do with anything?

So either retract you insults buddy, or I will report you to the Moderators! for further disciplinary action!

Go ahead and report. I’m not comparing you to vermin. All I’m doing is stating that humans are another form of animal and I’m not retracting that statement.

Ha, ha, ha, .. see how funny and even ironic that would be?

Yes, I’m sure the moderators would laugh at the notion that I was insulting you.

You look down your nose at those who claim you are just a more evolved animal. How is that not arrogant? Why are you so ashamed of being just another animal? A more highly evolved animal?

I know buddy, it's what you believe, it's your religious beliefs and I honestly wouldn't mind you telling me that, we could just go on debating it like any other religion.

How is it a religious belief? How is it a religion?

More like you are trying to lock me in an animal cage, like they do apes at the zoo.

I’m doing no such thing. Our prisons are quite capable of keeping those of us who act like animals locked up.

I explained to you that I know who I am, a human created in my Creators image. I am a spirit/mind residing in a physical body, my mind is not in some religious bubble, but is as free as the vastness of space, it is infinitely eternal.]

Sounds like fantasy to me. Science fiction even.

So how in the world would you free someone like me by insisting that I accept being an animal with no purpose, no plan, no true free will, just the result of some chaotic cosmic accident?

Once again you show an ignorance of evolution. No evolutionist believes that we a chaotic cosmic accident. That’s a false Creationist mindset. In fact I see us as an inevitable outcome of our environment. It could have turned out no other way.

Get serious my friend

I am serious. I’m not the one trying to make silly jokes.

, I'm more on to you and your mind controlling buddies than you think.

Mind control buddies? Who are you talking about. I know no such people. Nor do I seek to control anywone’s minds.

But I am praying for you all,

Ah, so you are going to use your special thinking powers on me. Abracadabra! Magical!

What are you, by your own admission?
an animal, an ape right?

You’re from a different line. You’re not a direct ancestor of chimpanzees or gorillas. If you understood even basic principles of evolution you would know this and wouldn’t have to make up strawmen arguments about monkeys. I’m not even going to respond to the other questions. Most of them are just flippant.

Just look how much we can achieve with the binary code? And that's just two numbers 1's and 0's. Now imagine a code not just with 30 to 45 letters (that make up languages) but millions of words, some with dozens of different meanings!??

Interesting you talk about binary. Even the most complex of computers breaks down to simple 1s and 0s. But yet you can’t understand how the human body could have started out as basic elements? Basic forms of life that became more complex over time. Over millions of years.

All God had to do was speak things into existence and they happened. That’s the same as magic. So we have a super powered all knowing magical being who speaks and OUILA! Things are created… OUT OF NOTHING. That just makes soooo much more sense than evolution.

I just explained how, and yes God speaks things into existence, or into a form of reality we can recognize, like this universe for instance. And it's never ever OUT OF NOTHING, that's silly. I shown you the existence of nothing, and what God uses it for, and it's not something He pulls things 'out of', but to keep things separated.

Well where did the resources come from that God used to create things with? Even an artist needs basic resources. But where did those resources come from for God? Out of thin air? Where did God himself come from? You see as soon as you answer those questions you then have the answer of how life came to be. How anything came to be.

But anyways, if we can replicate a virtual world, or a brain down to it's molecular level, then imagine what God can do using words?

God can do anything in someone’s imagination.

But then your memories start to return. They start coming into your mind from the age of 10 and the memories continue to play out in your mind, day by day, month by month, year by year and you see all the different paths that you took and the decisions you made which took you to where you are. And then you see that hey… it all makes perfect sense now. It was destiny.

Cool, I love it so far.

But what do you mean it was destiny? I took those different paths, I made those choices from the many I had each time.

Yes and each decision you made led you down a certain path. You only made that one decision. You can’t change it. You can’t go back. It was the only path you could have possibly taken because that was the path you chose. No other.

I remember taking my beautiful wife house shopping and how she looked at 20 different houses before she settled for this one.

Yes. And it was destiny that you ended up with that one because you would have chosen no other.

My job, how my boss wanted to make me his partner, actually his son, but I would have had to back up his lies to get the jobs, the big contracts, and because I refused, he made it tough for me so I quit. I remember all those real tough decisions, and how broke I was because jobs at that time were scarce, while if I stayed and become his son, I would of live like a king. So not destiny, but choices that I made that brought me to this point, I made my own destiny.

Exactly! You made your own destiny. You couldn’t possibly have ended up anywhere else. Although having said that there would have been many things that happened that you had no control over, right? Like the people who came across your path, the accidents, the chances. Things falling in place at the right time or the wrong time. There are only certain things you can influence based on decision. You weren’t gonna be born in any other country or to any other parents. You would have gone to the school your parent chose. All that sort of stuff you can’t control.

I could only have ever traveled one path. I could only ever make one decision at a time, with each decision resulting in an outcome. You see that there is a logical path and that it could have never resulted in any other outcome because you made the decisions you did and took the paths you traveled.

Yes I only traveled the path that I decided at the time to be the most honest one, not necessarily the best one. I also realized later where the other path would have taken me, rich, cars, women galore, but spiritually dead. Most likely a lot of drugs to numb the guilty conscience haunting me.
But now that I look back, hey, God still blessed me and I still have a beautiful house, a beautiful wife, kids, good kids too, and smart. So no regrets, but thankfulness.

Oh yea, and I could still take other paths, still have to make critical decisions. Things just don't fall in my lap, if you know what I mean

But you didn’t. You only took one route. And you can’t change that. What’s done is done. Whatever the influences were you ended up here. Whether those influences were other people, God, your own desires or whatever.

OK, I understand what you were getting at, but honestly how would that fit?

Just as outside influences affected a lot of our journey, so do outside influences affect the path of evolution. Something evolves and it becomes what it is today. It was destiny. A foregone conclusion. It could have taken no other path. So it’s not a cosmic accident, just as you ending up with your beautiful house and beautiful wife was not an accident. There were logical steps that led to that point, it’s just that we don’t necessarily know what those were.

Question; what am I at 10, a single celled bacteria, a tadpole starring out of the primordial soup up at a banana tree trying to decide to become a Giraffe, or a monkey so I could reach those bananas? Or am I a lizard practicing running on two legs, .. what?

We don’t know do we? Because we don’t know what happened in those 40 years. But logically there was a path that led us to where we are today. A path that couldn’t have been any different based on the external influences that occurred and any decisions we might have made along the path (eg swimming into that cloudy water or going from fresh water into salt water).

I mean in your analogy I realized that as a human I made a lot of plans, decisions, made a lot of choices and that's what brought me to where I am now. I can also look back and see where those other choices would have lead me, also I still can make those choices I missed out on. I am not a victim of circumstance, ..

But you can’t go back in time and change anything. You’re married to a woman. You can’t go back in time and chose not to marry her. The outcome has been reached. You can only make a decision based on where you’re at now.

But in evolution there are no plans, no decisions, no choices to be made by the evolving biological life. If Mother nature decided to mutate/evolve my eyes on the bottom of my feet, hey tough, .. you know what I mean? Am I still being fair here?

But wait! There are outside influences. These determine the path. And does not a basic life form have some kind of freewill to choose what it does? Whether it swims or crawls in a certain direction. Curiosity. Instinct . These are all there. And of course there is mutations like you said. But it’s the outside influences that have the biggest effect. Just look at what sun and water can do! So there are many influences. These influences determine a specific outcome. We see life on this planet thriving because it followed a certain path. If the outside influences were different it would have followed a different path. We might have completely different life than what we see today.

No cosmic accident. Only an inevitable outcome.

There is no need to make up stories of magical beings performing magic tricks.

Well not when we have analogies like these, .. sorry, but the way I see it is that it would take a lot of magic to make this analogy work with evolution.

Nope no magic needed. Just following an inevitable path.

There are good reasons why we are at this point. We just don't necessarily know what they are.

Yes, as a Christian Believer because of the evidence with substance that was presented to me throughout my life I know very well why we are at this point, including why we are sick, aching and all of us slowly dying, .. instead of where I know we could be, living in a Garden of Paradise, naked, no shoes, no bills, no one poisoning my food at restaurants, no GMO, no deadly chemicals in the air to breath in, but sheer joy and enjoyment of life, .. eternal life.

You can make up any story you like but that doesn’t make it true.

Evolution specifically says that there are no 'reasons' good or bad in evolution, no plan, no ones design or will, it is what it is.

What evolution teaches is that there is no intelligence behind it. There is no plan. It is not not designed. Yes, it is what it is. The INEVITABLE OUTCOME! Just like it was an inevitable outcome that you ended up with the beautiful house and the beautiful wife. Did you sit down and plan it all when you were ten years old? No. You didn’t know that paths you would take or the outside influences you would face. Same with evolution.

There are always reasons why things happen. It's the law of cause and effect. eg I go and eat dinner because I'm hungry. I go for a swim in a lake because I'm hot. I get slapped in the face because i made a pass. etc etc.

It’s the intelligence, the plan, the design that does not happen. The reasons still exist though.

It is simply giving into ignorance and ancient thinking, filling in the gaps with “A magical being did it�.

I'm serious, one day you will have to introduce me to this 'magical being' that could pop universe out of nothing? So far no one could show me?

You’re the one that believes in the magical being - God.

Please tell me; Is a woman getting pregnant, and 9 months later giving birth to a functioning, all parts in place and working human baby part of 'evolution'? Did the baby evolve from a single cell to trillions of cells, or is magic involved?

You speak of a baby growing. That in itself is kind of like evolution happening right there, except it has external forces speeding up the process. It goes from a sperm and a cell and evolves into a baby. It’s not a stretch of the imagination to think that one species of animal might evolve over a period of a long time with external influences affecting it in some way.

External influences, Arian. Natural ones. No magical being like God needed for that. Just an environment that can sustain and promote that evolution.

Because from one cell, to 100's of trillions of sells accumulating in just the right sequence to create a human baby in less then 36 weeks is fast, .. really, really fast when considering the first model took 4.2 billion years to mutate!?

Bad example. A baby growing requires an environment to support it’s growth that quickly. It has that environment. If it didn’t we wouldn’t have babies. Normal evolution though takes a lot longer but it still needs an environment to support it.

I’m not saying you have to agree with it. Just try to understand the basic principles so that you won’t sound ignorant when debating against it.

The only time I would sound ignorant is when I would be teaching this story to my children as if it was true, not when I debate against it.

That’s how I feel now about teaching the creation story.

Do you really want to challenge me on the Big Bang Evolution theory if I understand it or not?

I don't care if you understand the big bang. It's not part of evolution. That's Origins of the universe stuff which is a different field.

Can't you see that it is exactly because I understand the concept that I speak against it with such boldness?

No, your strawmen arguments show me and others that you simply don’t understand. You continue to mock and twist. You continue to use tired old Christian arguments that have been used by other Christians who clearly have no basic understanding of evolution. I used to do the same as you until I made some kind of effort to understand what it is that evolution actually teaches.

OK then, I will show you, I will use only my common sense to analyze your claims on ONE theory; 'Evolution' starting with the cosmological theory that starts with a Big-bang and we'll end it with biological human animal apes. Agreed? It's all Evolution, one cannot exist without the other.

No evolution started after life began. Whether it was a big bang or not is irrelevant. The big bang is a theory on how life began. That’s all. Evolution is about how life evolved.

I don’t have an opinion on the big bang. I am happy to say I don’t know how the universe got here, but if you can determine how God got here, then you have the answer for how the universe could get here.

We can even skip over how the speck got here, let's start with earth still hot and stated cooling.

I explained who God is in Z's "Undeniable and scientific Evidence of the Creator", which is obviously denied by the atheists.

How about you first explain how God got there? An all powerful, all knowing, supernatural being who can be everywhere at once.

[H.sapiens]

Arian:
There are Christians all over the net, some well known and apparently respected, flogging claims of empirical or scientific proof of the existence of their God. Every one of those claims founders on the rocks of rationality in the end.

Just as you are an ape, your parents are also apes. But mirror does not tell the real tale, your chromosomes do. Homo sapiens’ Chromosome Two clearly reveals your connection to the other apes through a common ancestor.

It is not (as you state it) “came from� but rather, “shared a recent common ancestor with.�

There is not “evolution religion� that’s a common and indefensible canard that is often launched in a vain attempt to sink science to a level that has parity with religion. Sorry but that dog doesn’t hunt.

Look in the mirror and see similarities and indicators, look at the chromosomes and see proof positive … you are an animal, you are an ape.

Actually there is no such thing as an “evolutionist� just as there is no such thing as an evolutionary religion. There is only supernatural religion (like you have faith in) and rational science. It is interesting to note that in every resolved encounter between rational science and supernatural religion rational science has come out on top, supernatural religion has never turned out to be more trustworthy, quite the opposite.

You never thought or you never considered that claiming to be a human over animals would be considered arrogance? I suspect that you never considered that seeing humans as “over� animals is incredibly arrogant. Have you ever considered that you would not be able to even live were it not for a huge number of different kinds of micro organisms in your body? Without them you would die! So who is “over� whom?

Despite what OnceConvinced said, there is no “perhaps� to it … we are no more “highly� evolved than any other organism … since we all trace our ancestry back to exactly the same source and have evolved for exactly same amount of time.
You have a serious identity problem that is wrapped up in the delusion that you are something other than you actually are, an ape, no more and no less special than any other ape.

OnceConvinced is quite correct; you need to learn some things that are outside of you narrow religious supernatural view if you are to understand evolution. The same is clearly true of what you fail to grasp concerning human sexuality and homosexuality. It is clear that you hold a God and Jesus Christ, Biblical Christian way of thinking that leads to clearly and demonstrably incorrect conclusions concerning both evolution and homosexuality (your understanding of which seems to have arrested at unsophisticated stage of “women with penises and men with vaginas�).

The only danger that ever comes from religious beliefs occurs when people want to push their own supernatural beliefs onto others. If you really want to help, you’d keep your own to yourself and stop bloviating about folks who disagree with “rebelling against their Creator, their Father God.� As far as I can tell there is no such thing.

I do “claim to be an ape� and I can prove that you too are an ape (remember Chromosome Two?) . What misbehavior of an animal like a monkey in an unnatural environment has to do with their ancestry is no more reality that is your inability to survive in the arctic winter bare ass naked.

Educated humans know that they are start animals, apes at that. They arrive at that knowledge by taking a serious look at what truly is reality, rather than relying on mythology.

All animals are different from all other animals, that’s because of a facet of evolution known as niche separation. The fact that you as a human ape have the ability to wrongfully imprison some of you monkey kin speaks not to any lack of kinship.

The sort of untutored observation that you engage in has no relationship (save a semantic one) with what scientists do. I know, I am a scientist. You are not just your “mind� (something that only exists in the strange dualism you invent in your egotism to pretend that humanity is special. You are a combination of your fingers, your teeth, your jaws and everything anything else is part of your body like your brain. Your so-called “mind� is just a fragment of your egotism. Your Bible can not be shown to be anything other than a figment of your imagination.
I understand why you are tired of trying to preach against evolution. It is, quite literally, an impossible task.

While some things are the same as you identify (e.g., amount of evolution, same area on earth, same sun), other things that you claim are the same are not (e.g., same environment, same surroundings, same mouth, same tongue, same brain, same vocal cords), but most importantly the niche space each specie occupied was different, so the species are now different. I dislike mechanical analogies, but it is kind of like wondering why gasoline engines, steam engines, gas turbines and diesel engines are not used interchangeably to power aircraft ... after all they all produce rotary motion.

I don’t know if you are afraid, but it is easy to prove you wrong (remember Chromosome Two?) . Rather than fear I see you as being egotistical. You have a need to be special, more special than any other animal, so special that you actually believe that you were specially created by a supreme being. What crap! What ego! What self-promoting self-importance.

Can't you see that it is exactly because I understand the concept that I speak against it with such boldness? Would you like to debate "Let there be light" as I understand the Creation Story vs. Scientific claims of "single celled bacteria popping out of some primordial soup which over exactly 4.2 billion years evolved without a plan, or will but mutated itself into humans who could reason, evolve questions at such alarming speed?

I’d be happy to debate your creation fairytale against the known evolutionary process, since there is no comparison. You have a fairy tale with no rational support that requires belief; I have a rational scientific explanation support but many, many clear lines of evidence that requires no belief what-so-ever, save (perhaps) in reasonable uniformitarianism with respect to the basic rules of the universe.

No one is waiting for Koko to say anything, her species never evolved the hardware required for speech … there was no advantage in it, hard as that may be for you to believe. Remember, humans are not the end all be all of the universe.
I am a self respecting human. Likely more self respecting than you because I understand my place in the universe and don’t have to make believe like you do that I am assigned a place above my station. I know and can prove that we are evolved animals and not some special creation (remember Chromosome Two?). I am happy to disprove your assertion and, right here and now, by affirming that we are all animals whose ancestors other forms of apes.

If you think that a million “stories� from anthropology, archaeology, paleontology, zoology and botany are the only evidence for evolution you don’t know what you are talking about. What was once supporting data, from immunology, biochemistry, genetics and embryology has advanced so far that data from the former fields is entirely unnecessary to make the evolutionary case. The case is easily made solely on the basis of modern, contemporary, observable science, something that you cannot say for the Bible, Christ, God, or any such supernatural hogwash.

Note:

All members of Hominidae except humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans have 24 pairs of chromosomes.[4] Humans have only 23 pairs of chromosomes. Human chromosome 2 is widely accepted to be a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.

The evidence for this includes:

The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.

The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.[9]
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

Chromosome 2 is consistent with the common ancestry of humans and other apes. According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2."

With thanks to Wiki

[arian]

Arian:
There are Christians all over the net, some well known and apparently respected, flogging claims of empirical or scientific proof of the existence of their God. Every one of those claims founders on the rocks of rationality in the end.

I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to tell me with this? Is it that 'all claims of God/gods' are irrational?
How many "scientific evidence of God' have you checked out, can you refer me to them?
Thanks, because I am desperately searching for someone like Tillich, or Arius!?

Just as you are an ape, your parents are also apes. But mirror does not tell the real tale, your chromosomes do. Homo sapiens’ Chromosome Two clearly reveals your connection to the other apes through a common ancestor.

Now that's offensive, what have I ever done to you, for you to speak so cruel of me, my family all the way to my ancestors, answer me that?

"Oh look, that monkey is eating fruit, a banana, we must be monkeys?"
Oh yea, well look over here in the alley, see that rat, it's eating banana, so are you calling me a rat?"

For your information the common Jews were labeled rats, and killed off like rats. Are you smarter than the German people? Even Einstein was a German who agreed to evolution labeling, are you smarter then Einstein, huh, .. are you?

It is not (as you state it) “came from� but rather, “shared a recent common ancestor with.�

What do you mean "shared a recent common ancestor"? You called me, my family, my ancestors, all of us apes, animals. That's right, if I said "came from", that would be wrong, because you still call me an animal which I resent.

And as I pointed out with Hitler and the Germans, they believed in evolution, and it was that 'belief system' that they followed religiously that authorized them the right to treat non-Germans like animals. There is no moral obligation in killing rats with poison. Besides, what does morality even mean in Evolution?

There is not “evolution religion� that’s a common and indefensible canard that is often launched in a vain attempt to sink science to a level that has parity with religion. Sorry but that dog doesn’t hunt.

If you insist that your religion means 'science, like I keep saying where our children are made to believe evolution = science, but hey, stand in line, 'cause you ain't the only ones. "Heavens Gate, Scientology" are just a few others.

Look in the mirror and see similarities and indicators, look at the chromosomes and see proof positive … you are an animal, you are an ape.

Now if I said anything like that, especially reference to people with disabilities, or gays and Jews (you know, like Hitler did) Moderators would by pass the Warning and Ban me right there and then. I want you to know that I am deeply offended by your continuous remarks calling me, my beautiful and smart children, my cousins and all my ancestors dumb animals, especially of the ape family!!!

Please read history, and then take a little closer look at todays media, .. look in the news reporting on the New Gay Marriage Victory'! I mean here is this huge hairy chested rugged looking healthy guy wearing a tutu, bellarina shoes, the whole Tinkerbell works (no make up or fake boobs, unshaven), and I was warned that it would be rude of me to refer to him as "Hey man, whass-up with the outfit?" One member told me that just because he looks, smells, walks and talks like a man, doesn't make him less of a lady! Yes, .. a lady, not a woman, but a lady.

Lady:
1. a woman (used as a polite or old-fashioned form of reference).
"I spoke to the lady at the travel agency"
"several ladies were present", "please don't cuss, ladies are present", "Zip up your pants-zipper, the ladies may get offended"

2. a woman of superior social position, especially one of noble birth.
"lords and ladies and royalty were once entertained at the house"

synonyms: noblewoman, duchess, countess, peeress, viscountess, baroness; archaicgentlewoman
"lords and ladies"

Actually there is no such thing as an “evolutionist� just as there is no such thing as an evolutionary religion. There is only supernatural religion (like you have faith in) and rational science. It is interesting to note that in every resolved encounter between rational science and supernatural religion rational science has come out on top, supernatural religion has never turned out to be more trustworthy, quite the opposite.

Yea, just like I explained above about the tall handsome, rugged, hairy-chested, bearded man wearing a Tinkerbelle ballerina outfit who claims he is a lady. Now that's undoubtedly a religious claim that came right out of the supernatural realm.

So now if a guy shows up at work wearing 'Pink' ladies underwear under his pants and you refer to him as a man, you could get fired!?

"How dare you!? Just because he is wearing pants does NOT mean he is less of a lady! Bill honey, .. oh stop crying, it's OK, .. here just lower your pants and let this 'Hate Crime' practicing Christian see the science in just what a lady you really are!"

Boy, I can just see the poor COPS asking for information on a robber: "Sir, you said you saw the whole thing correct? Now as an eye witness, can you describe the robber? Was it a male or female?"
And the eye witness terrified of the questioning would start reciting his own Miranda Rights real loud!

"Ahh.. NOOOooo, .. I, .. I have the right to remain silent! Anything I say can and will be used against me in a court of law! Oh God Please, PLEASE don't ask me anything sir, I don't want to go to prison for hate crimes against humanity, .. pplleeeaseee! Sob, .. sob, .."

You never thought or you never considered that claiming to be a human over animals would be considered arrogance? I suspect that you never considered that seeing humans as “over� animals is incredibly arrogant. Have you ever considered that you would not be able to even live were it not for a huge number of different kinds of micro organisms in your body? Without them you would die! So who is “over� whom?

Whaaa?? Wait, do I still "have the right to remain silent"? If so, then no comment.

Despite what OnceConvinced said, there is no “perhaps� to it … we are no more “highly� evolved than any other organism … since we all trace our ancestry back to exactly the same source and have evolved for exactly same amount of time.

You have a serious identity problem that is wrapped up in the delusion that you are something other than you actually are, an ape, no more and no less special than any other ape.

.. or a rat, right? Again, I really resent these remarks, I am on probation for "Personal attacks", then what would you call this?

And how you and others here are FORCING your religious beliefs down our throats. This is not religious persecution, this is "Persecution by Religion"! like this ISIS, "Oh, so you don't want to come and torture and kill with us, .. off with their heads! Burn them alive, drown them by lowering them in a cage, kill them where you find them!"

OnceConvinced is quite correct; you need to learn some things that are outside of you narrow religious supernatural view if you are to understand evolution. The same is clearly true of what you fail to grasp concerning human sexuality and homosexuality. It is clear that you hold a God and Jesus Christ, Biblical Christian way of thinking that leads to clearly and demonstrably incorrect conclusions concerning both evolution and homosexuality (your understanding of which seems to have arrested at unsophisticated stage of “women with penises and men with vaginas�).

I don't have to demonstrate your version of homosexuality and evolution, you do it real good yourself. You call me, my family, my ancestors all animals, apes without even getting a Warning, and here on a Christian Forum too! That right there says it all.
So what's next? Do I have to get a homosexuals permission to claim that I'm a man? Is my ONLY choice in claiming my gender as "Genderless", .. or what, exercise my Miranda Right: "No comment"!?

The only danger that ever comes from religious beliefs occurs when people want to push their own supernatural beliefs onto others.

Amen, now only if you could just understand what you just said?

If you really want to help, you’d keep your own to yourself and stop bloviating about folks who disagree with “rebelling against their Creator, their Father God.� As far as I can tell there is no such thing.

Did I ever tell you what you should believe in? I debate and present facts, scientific facts about our Creator God by having observed who I am, observing my own mind. Why don't you heed your own suggestions and "keep to yourself"? I don't call you and your loved ones animals, apes, or try to turn men into women, that's you. And if I refuse to accept that I am an animal, or that I am genderless, or both man and woman like Baphomet, then I get Warning after Warning.

"Look arian, just accept you're an animal ok? And please don't refer to a man as a man just because he looks like a man, he may be wearing women's underwear! Or what looks like a woman may be a gentleman, and her wife that what you once considered a man. Be polite, just say: "Hello person, my name is arian and am an animal of the ape family!"

I do “claim to be an ape� and I can prove that you too are an ape (remember Chromosome Two?) . What misbehavior of an animal like a monkey in an unnatural environment has to do with their ancestry is no more reality that is your inability to survive in the arctic winter bare ass naked.

OK, now that's confusing. Since I am an animal, a monkey, then our misbehavior is because we are in an unnatural environment? Is this why we don't know if we are male or female? So please tell me, what's the Biological estimate as far as time goes, that the human animal monkey might evolve to the height of the rest of the animal kingdom and know what gender we are? Sixty thousand, a million, ten million years, .. how long? I mean here we are 4.2 billion years later, outlived the Dinosaurs, outsmarted the other monkeys where we make fun and even eat the other monkeys, yet now, after building an empire with all the latest technology, and bam, .. confusion. But this is a MAJOR evolutionary event, it has to do with the survival of the human animal monkey race! We're talking extinction!

Tell me, do you think man made a pre-evolutionary jump into gay marriage way before the male species developed a womb and the ability to reproduce, and the female species developed testicles and some means to deliver the sperm into the other females?

I mean we are in danger here of extinction, male apes marrying male apes and spending their entire lives trying to reproduce! I mean what's mom and dad, .. Father (Time) and Mother (nature) doing? Trying to force extinction on the animals with the most advanced brains? Or is this confusion caused by some virus, you know like AIDS maybe?
I mean someone (maybe even you?) told me there is evidence of evolution in gnats with VD!?

Educated humans know that they are start animals, apes at that. They arrive at that knowledge by taking a serious look at what truly is reality, rather than relying on mythology.

I mean come on, what would dumb apes know anyways? Where is reason in evolution, or taking a serious look at anything? It happened because there is one infinity, and no matter how many times you roll the 'infinity-dice', this exact same thing would happen My wife and I love to watch nature videos, and there was no indication that our ancestors (either evolved passed us since they know what gender they are, or we evolved over them since we build cell phones) monkeys living either at the zoos, or in the jungles did any research on who they are. They all seem to understand who they are; monkeys. Male monkeys and female monkeys. This gay-agenda is another proof that man is not the same species as the other monkeys.

All animals are different from all other animals, that’s because of a facet of evolution known as niche separation. The fact that you as a human ape have the ability to wrongfully imprison some of you monkey kin speaks not to any lack of kinship.

Well I guess you may be right, I mean lot of couples would want to throw the in-laws, cousins, family members like brothers and sisters out after a week, but look at us human apes, we keep our ancestors so close that they can't even dream of escaping.
You do have to watch going near their gages though! Is it resentment? Is it that they don't like to be stared at all the time? Who knows?

The sort of untutored observation that you engage in has no relationship (save a semantic one) with what scientists do. I know, I am a scientist. You are not just your “mind� (something that only exists in the strange dualism you invent in your egotism to pretend that humanity is special. You are a combination of your fingers, your teeth, your jaws and everything anything else is part of your body like your brain. Your so-called “mind� is just a fragment of your egotism. Your Bible can not be shown to be anything other than a figment of your imagination.
I understand why you are tired of trying to preach against evolution. It is, quite literally, an impossible task.

Wait, so these words appearing on the screen is nothing but my fingers erratic movements with no real plan, purpose? That my eyes just see random characters, and those words, especially in the Bible are really just a bunched up meaningless characters, and the rest is just the figment of imagination? Wow, sure is an eye opener. And here I was trying to reason, to make some sense out of all this!?

While some things are the same as you identify (e.g., amount of evolution, same area on earth, same sun), other things that you claim are the same are not (e.g., same environment, same surroundings, same mouth, same tongue, same brain, same vocal cords), but most importantly the niche space each specie occupied was different, so the species are now different.

Look, I'm just going by what I have seen, we have all these animals living next to humans, eating the same foods, breathing the same chem-trails etc., yet here we are debating on computers with fellow debaters half way around the world, while our cousins we keep in cages, on cement floors, and fake trees to sleep in. No dinner ware, no fine china, champagne glass to drink out of, because they would hurt themselves if they break the glass, or use silverware. Now you say: "Well hundreds of millions of years ago they lived on different parts of the earth, ate different foods and whatever, but here we are all together again, which I consider reliable and testable evidence.
I mean we live all over the earth now, yet I don't see the human ape in China turning into anything different then a human by evolution, .. but we sure as hell are trying to do evolutions job by I.D.

Remember my post on Post Human 2.0? Are these projects by evolution, or I.D.?
Why is man trying to use I.D. anyways when he admits it's a ridiculous idea? "It cannot happen, we don't have even an idea how I.D-ing a universe, or an earth, or biological life would even look like?" .. yet billion$ of $$ and millions of man hours later they introduce the Honda robot (a very, very, very poor copy of a human) to our President, of the most technologically advanced country in the World, yet for some unknown reason is amazed this tin-can robot is able to hop on one leg!?!? I just don't get it H.sepiens, can you help me out here to understand I.D. within Evolution? Are these scientists really Christians who actually believe in God and I.D. only disguised as atheist Evolutionists?

Do they know the long-term consequences of messing with evolution even a teeny-tiny bit? Isn't this the reason that atheist leaders are dumming down the earths population by putting fluoride in our water, with all kinds of religious Satanic entertainment, music, magic, so humans would no longer be able to Intelligently mess with nature?

Isn't this why Agenda 21 was developed, to eradicate and exterminate the human-animal with intelligence from the face of the earth, to prevent the inbred desire of man to create, to mess with nature, GMO'ing food stuff, manipulating the weather with all the intelligence they have accumulated over the years from Weather Balloons and from satellites. They try to use Intelligence they have accumulated to try to grow something other than what's already evolved all by itself, and hopefully, if all goes well with their intelligently designed plans, give nature back to mom, Mother Nature and thus preserve/save nature, .. er, .. well yeah, something like that?

I know they are planning to nuke everything, including cracking all the Nuclear reactors in every city throughout the world wide open, to both eradicate all human life, and give those animals (vegetation, fungi etc.) that survive a biological "mutation-boost"!?

I dislike mechanical analogies, but it is kind of like wondering why gasoline engines, steam engines, gas turbines and diesel engines are not used interchangeably to power aircraft ... after all they all produce rotary motion.

I don’t know if you are afraid, but it is easy to prove you wrong (remember Chromosome Two?) . Rather than fear I see you as being egotistical. You have a need to be special, more special than any other animal, so special that you actually believe that you were specially created by a supreme being. What crap! What ego! What self-promoting self-importance.

Well that remark may work with other goats, but you see I have already gone through being taught at a very early age, from the moment I was born, till I was 12 that I was an animal, only not a monkey but a no good, rotten dumb dog. So it took me another 40 years of mental evolution to evolve out of that Not egotistical, or anything special, but quite opposite, from a worthless worm to realize that I am a child of God, my Creator. That I'm worth more than two sparrows, of which not one falls to the ground without my Father knowing about it.

"You are worthless, a dumb dog! here, here dog, take these bones and eat it outside out of my sight!" Yep, and I ate them bones, my favorite was chicken bones cause I would slowly, piece by piece crunch it up into tiny pieces and suck the nutrients out of it. Now poison was hard on me, especially cyanide, which almost knocked me on the ground, this is why I am so angry seeing billions being poisoned today. Oh that sloooow torture, the promises and not fulfilling them and watching a child cry in agony seemed somehow to delight those that do this.
On a world wide scale they get doctors reports and read it all together and their women even dance in circles rejoicing at all their successes. Heart transplants, liver, kidney, it's all to "be like the Most High" the Creator.

So what you are doing to others here reducing their mental state to an animal, or even to a single celled bacteria if it's possible where women will get up on stage front of millions with complete abandon that's not only foreign to God in whose image she was created in, but it goes against nature itself. I have been through all the brainwashing's my dear debating friend, religion after religion, survived it, learned and still learning from them. Yep, all that "You ain't nothing special dog, why don't you just kill yourself?" Yep, they would even pray to their Deities in the supernatural realm to kill me. So I pray that God would open your eyes, because I still doubt you realize what you are saying!? You are smart, intelligent, so something is not right.

Can't you see that it is exactly because I understand the concept that I speak against it with such boldness? Would you like to debate "Let there be light" as I understand the Creation Story vs. Scientific claims of "single celled bacteria popping out of some primordial soup which over exactly 4.2 billion years evolved without a plan, or will but mutated itself into humans who could reason, evolve questions at such alarming speed?

I’d be happy to debate your creation fairytale against the known evolutionary process, since there is no comparison. You have a fairy tale with no rational support that requires belief; I have a rational scientific explanation support but many, many clear lines of evidence that requires no belief what-so-ever, save (perhaps) in reasonable uniformitarianism with respect to the basic rules of the universe

You went to school right? To learn what? As you said; ".. the basic rules of the universe".
So why didn't you just stay home and let mom (mother nature) evolve that information into your head, instead you sought out someone with Intelligence, to hopefully make you intelligent by adhering to rules.

Can't you see that a class with no discipline, no rules, no intelligent teachers would create chaos? What do you think would evolve from that chaos? Well I have been blessed to have witnessed that too. In Detroit '68 - '73, where they hung teachers out the windows, pushed white blind kids, girls and white boys down the stairs, stabbing and shootings. One by one the glass in the whole school broken out even with steel grates over them, then finally slowly boarded up, one by one. Now I don't believe that 60 million years of that would graduate ANYONE from there!? Where is the "rational support" for chaos mutating anything beneficial?

No one is waiting for Koko to say anything, her species never evolved the hardware required for speech … there was no advantage in it, hard as that may be for you to believe. Remember, humans are not the end all be all of the universe.

Oh come on my friend, why would they spend so much time and money training Koko if they never expected some human response from her, not just the trained responses, but maybe a word, you know. like in the Newer first Planet of the Apes movies Caesar; a clear reply to something Koko didn't like, just a simple word like "No!"

No, humans are not the end-all, be-all in the universe, but will be moved on, to a New heaven and New Earth, made completely New from the very atoms. I would love you to come and join us, because even logic dictates that those who don't want to change/repent/ admit that wrong is wrong and what's right is right, having them enter eternal life with no time, even the smallest sin would eventually turn into something unimaginably terrible. So it's not that God won't, but that God can't let that happen.

This is why God has prepared a place for Satan and his angels, and those men who chose to serve him, where they can be free of Gods rules, His constant Spirit of conscience; "No man don't, sure it sounds like fun, but that's not right. Don't do it, you'll get caught, etc."
There in complete abandon, where sacrificing children, murder, all the sexual and immoral sins that Satan and humans could imagine are left to fulfill. Only thing will be missing is Gods goodness and mercy, so imagine spending eternity in darkness, with people like Lucifer and his angels who had no mercy on anyone?

I know, you'll say it won't happen, once your dead, your dead right? If that was so, this would have never come up in a debate. If the body is all there is, then it would be natural to die, and the brain would never spasm something that is unnatural!

Why are they trying to prolong life if the body/brain evolved only knowing life and death? If Evolution came about through generation after generation of life and death, then even the though of eternal life should be frightening, because it would be the end of evolution. All evolution would be stuck at one point, an eternal nightmare of the same thing forever.

I am a self respecting human. Likely more self respecting than you because I understand my place in the universe and don’t have to make believe like you do that I am assigned a place above my station. I know and can prove that we are evolved animals and not some special creation (remember Chromosome Two?). I am happy to disprove your assertion and, right here and now, by affirming that we are all animals whose ancestors other forms of apes.

What exactly is your place in the universe? Just another animal acting upon the accumulated instinct of your ancestors that go back billions of years to single celled bacteria? How do you reason, why do you reason and debate then? Just hush up (no offense meant, just saying OK?) and accept your place in the universe. Did you arrive with a plan, a purpose, a reason? See, you have to say no. No purpose, no reason, just from a rock that sweat primordial soup evolved you. If you believe you have proof, then I really don't understand why any Evolutionist would even debate Creation or try so desperately to deny a Creator? Who cares, no one cared for 13.75 BILLION years, so what if some glitch in the human brain of some of the people mimic some ideas of good and bad? Good, bad is all the same for evolution, the good survive, the bad die out, and this will go on and on and on.

It's like one monkey throwing a cocoanut at another monkeys head, you ever seen a monkey sue? Of course not, all the other monkeys just laugh it off. Enough with all this debating then, let's all just climb back up in our trees and let evolution do her job, it's what she is good at and as you said the evidence is all around us. Be all that you evolved to be, no plan, no reason or will of anyone, why argue about it now?

Especially all this atheistic plans to open portals for the alien Lucifer and his angels to enter our realm, what the hell is that about? This pyramid junk, millions calling upon Lucifer, making songs of praise to him, what in the evolving-devolving world is that about? Don't atheist know that there is no god or gods?

This is what I mean, all this conflicting things going on all over. No Bibles in school, rather sex education. Sex education, really? After 4 billion years of speciation and now some atheist Evolutionist comes up with the idea of sex education for our kids? LOL, come on now you gotta admit that's funny. "hey kids, we evolved over billions of years, Mother Nature took care of us, when there was over population of the strong, she called a meteor to come and kill them, .. but now let me tell you about the proper use of condoms!" lol.

Why? Remember you can explain everything through evolution right? so what's condoms have to do with evolution? How many different families of apes that you know that are overpopulated? EXACTLY, and no condoms. They just kick back and let Mother Nature take care of them. Besides, there is no such thing as overpopulation, I have traveled all over the world, and watched a lot of movies of plane crashes, the problem was not over population, but that people die because there is just no one around to help. Heck, even when we do send help, they can't find them!

I wish atheists would stick with believing there is no God, and leave us Believers in God alone. Leave our children alone, I mean how can a Flying Spaghetti Monster hurt you in any way shape or form? Also, if you believe in Evolution and you are 100% convinced of the evidence, how in the world can you honestly be worried about over population? I mean Agenda 21, .. are you guys serious?

If you think that a million “stories� from anthropology, archaeology, paleontology, zoology and botany are the only evidence for evolution you don’t know what you are talking about. What was once supporting data, from immunology, biochemistry, genetics and embryology has advanced so far that data from the former fields is entirely unnecessary to make the evolutionary case. The case is easily made solely on the basis of modern, contemporary, observable science, something that you cannot say for the Bible, Christ, God, or any such supernatural hogwash.

Note:

All members of Hominidae except humans, Neanderthals, and Denisovans have 24 pairs of chromosomes.[4] Humans have only 23 pairs of chromosomes. Human chromosome 2 is widely accepted to be a result of an end-to-end fusion of two ancestral chromosomes.

The evidence for this includes:

The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan.

The presence of a vestigial centromere. Normally a chromosome has just one centromere, but in chromosome 2 there are remnants of a second centromere.[9]
The presence of vestigial telomeres. These are normally found only at the ends of a chromosome, but in chromosome 2 there are additional telomere sequences in the middle.

Chromosome 2 is consistent with the common ancestry of humans and other apes. According to researcher J. W. IJdo, "We conclude that the locus cloned in cosmids c8.1 and c29B is the relic of an ancient telomere-telomere fusion and marks the point at which two ancestral ape chromosomes fused to give rise to human chromosome 2."

With thanks to Wiki

OK, .. so it says: The correspondence of chromosome 2 to two ape chromosomes. The closest human relative, the chimpanzee, has near-identical DNA sequences to human chromosome 2, but they are found in two separate chromosomes. The same is true of the more distant gorilla and orangutan. so the scientific summary would be that apes, humans, chimpanzees and I read somewhere that even rats have similar chromosomes. This doesn't prove that an ape family, or a chimp family is evolving, or has evolved into human.
That's right, it semantics, it's those stories in-between the chimp and the human that is evolution, the stories not the scientific evidence of chromosomes in apes, chimps and humans.

Like ears, most animals have ears which is a scientific fact, and anyone can observe and document that. But if anyone comes and tells you that this donkey evolved over billions of years into a man who also has ears, now that is not science. But I respect your religious views, only my God is not from a religious construct, He is the Only real thing that is, was and forever will be, the rest is His creation by Intelligent Design, starting with His Son Word.

Thanks for the debate, I pray that you take no offense in what I wrote, it's just debating your debate. I said that calling me and my family a bunch of animals apes was offensive to me, but I don't take it that you intentionally offended me OK, it is this Evolution religion that offends us all, and brother it's you included, right? So I'm sticking up for you and your family also, were in the same boat.

[McCulloch]

Is it that 'all claims of God/gods' are irrational?

yes. All claims of the existence of Godd/gods that I am aware of are without sufficient evidence.

Just as you are an ape, your parents are also apes. But mirror does not tell the real tale, your chromosomes do. Homo sapiens’ Chromosome Two clearly reveals your connection to the other apes through a common ancestor.

Now that's offensive, what have I ever done to you, for you to speak so cruel of me, my family all the way to my ancestors, answer me that?

Is it offensive to say that you are a mammals ?

[arian]

Is it that 'all claims of God/gods' are irrational?

yes. All claims of the existence of Godd/gods that I am aware of are without sufficient evidence.

How about my scientific evidence of God, as the Infinite, Eternal Creative Mind/Spirit "I Am Who I Am", .. the One, only One that His Son Word even came down to 'reveal to us?
I don't mean all them other god/gods created by and through religions, you know the ones the pagans study in theology, but God as the "Ground of Being", The Mind the part we humans have that makes us who we are, .. individuals, not the body part which is made of dust like every other creature is, but the mind/spirit!?

Just as you are an ape, your parents are also apes. But mirror does not tell the real tale, your chromosomes do. Homo sapiens’ Chromosome Two clearly reveals your connection to the other apes through a common ancestor.

Now that's offensive, what have I ever done to you, for you to speak so cruel of me, my family all the way to my ancestors, answer me that?

Is it offensive to say that you are a mammals ?

Hello McCulloch.

No, neither is if he called me and my family 'biological life', or that "Ha, ha, ha, .. you and your family have hands, ears, eyes like monkeys have hands, ears eyes!" no matter what tone it came by. But what he keeps calling me and my family is animals, apes. Now that is really offensive since, .. well here, let me give you an example; We, that is my friend H.sapiens and my family could be walking up to a public building one day, and him run up front of me and my family and point to the sign on the door: "Absolutely No Animals Are Allowed in Building!"

No different than the old "Absolutely No Blacks/Niggers Allowed in Building!" Just because me and my family have hands, ears, eyes like apes have hands, ears, eyes and chromosomes, atoms, cells and whatever God created us by .. don't make us animals, especially apes.
No one has ever by looking at me mistaken me for an ape, or any other monkey, and I am willing to lay down on a couch at a psychologist next to an ape laying on a couch next to me, and we can do a psychoanalysis between the two of us and prove there also that I am not an ape.
For six thousand years of recorded history there was never a confusion as to what were animals and who were human, or who was male and who is female, but now in this last 100 years of all this "Enlightenment, and Technological Boom, and Big-bangs" suddenly there is all this confusion!? What gives?

If gays (same-sex couples) now have the right to marry which has always been a man and woman thing (if you doubt it, look at the oldest surviving mammals the Alligators, male and female coupling going back tens, .. thousands and even millions and millions of years!) and were given their right, then forgive me for asking not to be called an animal. I mean me and my family are starting to feel guilty entering any public buildings with the "No Animals Allowed!" Warning-signs.

I mean like my daughter, she is such a good law-abider, she'll remind me of even menial laws I have gotten used to breaking (spitting, like cherry-pits on the side walk), so it frightens me to think that when she is made to learn in science/biology that she is nothing but an evolving animal, an ape, .. that I might find her one day kneeling front of the bank holding a leash around her neck, asking people if she could be their "Seeing-Eye dog" so she could enter to do her banking! You know what I mean? Is that asking for much to have the right to remain a human, .. me a male and my wife a female??

I am NOT asking for those loyal members of the Evolution Religion to be referred to ONLY as human as me and my family, or even for them to pretend to be human, I have respect for all religions. I just want my humanity back, and ask that you (generic you) don't call me an animal, .. thank you.

Take care McCulloch and God bless you and yours!