Would you sacrifice your own son like Abraham was ready to

[Jagella]

I was studying Hebrews 11 today which praises people of faith. Verses 17-19 of that chapter lauds Abraham's obedience to God as Abraham was ready to murder his own son Isaac. (The original grotesque tale appears in Genesis 22.)

Would you murder your own son if God asked you to?

Yes--Well, this answer speaks for itself.

No--Then you admit that your religion is immoral.

I think I have faith of my own that none of the Christians here will give a straight, honest answer to this question. You will stonewall and do everything you can to divert attention away from this issue. You know that your religion is immoral but will never admit it.

[William]

[Replying to post 78 by ttruscott]

Every person who commits child abuse is a member of at least one organization...even if it is just the welfare system.

The welfare system and many other type organisations do not have as part of their creed, stories which promote the actions of child abuse as heroic and GOD-ordained.

So your argument falls on its face.

[bluethread]

The Bible is full of such contradictions and contradictory principles, which compel the believer to:

a) ignore the troublesome passages as though they don't exist. (it's all good, even if we don't "understand") in vain attempts to defend the indefensible.
b) apply God-given Reason and favor the benign passages in order to dismiss the atrocious passages...or
c) to dismiss the Bible in it's entirety,.

Can you think of other options?

One could recognize that atrocious is a cultural construct. If I were to have grown up in a place where child sacrifice was a common ritual practice, I might consider it. I knew a girl who chose not to pursue a relationship with me, because she could not have children. She didn't tell me until much later after a failed marriage. Long story short, she did have a child after all. Now, had we married and Adonai told me we would have a son, I might have been tested with a request that I abort the "fetus". I think this would be a better cmparison, because it takes cultural factors into consideration. At that time, I very well may have considered it. Would such a test from Adonai made Him malevolent toward me? I don't think so. I think it would have affirmed to me my commitment to Adonai and at the same time reinforced my opposition to abortion, since He would have stopped the abortion before it actually happened.

[marco]

Would such a test from Adonai made Him malevolent toward me? I don't think so. I think it would have affirmed to me my commitment to Adonai and at the same time reinforced my opposition to abortion, since He would have stopped the abortion before it actually happened.

How does one know that some suggestion emanates from Adonai? I think when we assume we are recipients of a divine command, we must demand evidence that we are dealing with God. A quick check by suicide bombers might have cast some doubt, not on the greatness of their God, but his compliance with murder..... but sadly, the Abraham-Issac affair makes such checks rather difficult since we cannot assume God will never ask us to do wicked things.

[William]

[Replying to post 82 by bluethread]

One could recognize that atrocious is a cultural construct.

Rather than an actual construct of a GOD .

If I were to have grown up in a place where child sacrifice was a common ritual practice, I might consider it.

Even that the culture would claim that a GOD ordains such practice.

I knew a girl who chose not to pursue a relationship with me, because she could not have children.

Which implies to the reader that she believed that you wanted to have children.

She didn't tell me until much later after a failed marriage. Long story short, she did have a child after all.

Which is relevant how?

Now, had we married and Adonai told me we would have a son, I might have been tested with a request that I abort the "fetus".

Which implies to the reader that you think the woman was lying about not being able to have children, and had she got pregnant to you, she might well have wanted an abortion.

I think this would be a better cmparison, because it takes cultural factors into consideration. At that time, I very well may have considered it.

Considering something is not the same as going ahead with something.

For example, you may have considered it and then after that, decided against it.

Would such a test from Adonai made Him malevolent toward me?

How is that even a test from a GOD? What has a GOD got to do with your possible decision to go ahead with supporting an abortion?

I don't think so.

Even if it were the case that a GOD would have an opinion on your considering to do something?

I don't think so. I think it would have affirmed to me my commitment to Adonai and at the same time reinforced my opposition to abortion, since He would have stopped the abortion before it actually happened.

Why do you presume that - after you considered supporting an abortion you then decide to go ahead with it, but a GOD stops it from going ahead anyway?

Since you are giving an analogy, what if the GOD refrained from intervention and the abortion went ahead?

The above question is at the root of the problem regarding acceptance of the story of Abe thinking any GOD wanted him to sacrifice his son.

It removes the necessity of self responsibility because one might go ahead with something and hoping that if the decision is incorrect, then GOD will intervene.

Even in that there is absolutely NO indication that Abe was unsure about his belief that a GOD wanted him to sacrifice his son.

He believed that a GOD ordered him to do so, so even your analogy is not aligned to the actual story BlueThread.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 84 by William]

Why do you presume that - after you considered supporting an abortion you then decide to go ahead with it, but a GOD stops it from going ahead anyway?

Since you are giving an analogy, what if the GOD refrained from intervention and the abortion went ahead?

Good counter-argument.

Bluethread...have you taken part in other threads discussing free will before? I honestly can't remember. Whether you have or you haven't, are of you of the persuasion that your God intervenes in decisions you make? Doesn't the fact that abortions to the tunes of thousands/tens of thousands being performed daily show that your God doesn't stop abortions?

[William]

[Replying to post 83 by marco]

How does one know that some suggestion emanates from Adonai? I think when we assume we are recipients of a divine command, we must demand evidence that we are dealing with God. A quick check by suicide bombers might have cast some doubt, not on the greatness of their God, but his compliance with murder..... but sadly, the Abraham-Issac affair makes such checks rather difficult since we cannot assume God will never ask us to do wicked things.

This is pertinent and at the heart of the matter.

In my post #36 I touch on this in the narration of the play I used to underline the difficulties involved with the abrahamic idea of GOD in relation to dealing with human beings.

The Local GOD: "So, what suggestions do we have on best approach?"

Archangel Bob: [Looking down at his news tablet] Well it appear Abe has loaded the donkey, so whatever we come up with, we better do so quickly!."

The Local GOD: "He always was far too serious! Not that this isn't admirable, but this is taking things way too far."

Angel Bill: "What say I go right now and head him off at the pass, so to speak. I can command him to turn around and counsel him that he is mistaken in his belief that his GOD want's him to sacrifice Laughter."

Archangel Bob: "Not sure that this will do the trick. He has a couple of servants with him as well, so it will be difficult to get him on his own. If we try to counsel him in front of his servants, things might well go 'forbidden fruit' [pear] shaped"

The Local GOD: "Yes - I agree with your analysis Bob. I also think it more than likely that Abe will react negatively if Bill tells him he is mistaken and that it was only a normal run-of-the-mill dream. Abe is a man on a mission and has made up his mind. Any such intervention will potentially make things far worse. He would likely accuse Bill of being 'the Devil disguised as an Angel.'

This shows specifically the problem in believing all stories in the bible and the bible itself as being inspired by GOD or, even more radically, being "The Word Of GOD"

How is one to know what is what in relation to extraterrestrial/dimensional visitation, whether it be Abe's Angel, Paul's Angel, The vision of Revelation, the GOD in the Garden of Eden, the Angels of Sodom and Gomorrah, the Angels of death in Egypt, The Angel of Mary, etc et al?

Seems like the only Angels who are not to be trusted are those who try to tell humans that these others are not true representatives of any GOD even if they claim to be, even if they give good reasons as to why this is the case.

We are not told how Abe got the idea in his head that the GOD wanted him to sacrifice his son. Perhaps it was a visitation by a devil disguised as an Angel? But if so, there is no good reason why this detail would have been omitted.

But overall, this is the complicated problem of Angelic interference supposedly on the behest of a true GOD - representing that GOD with instructions for humans to carry out.

How is anyone to know who is who and which is which when both seem at liberty to perform atrocities and perhaps even good things in the name of the GOD?

And why is it that in almost all circumstances this GOD requires Angels to mediate a message from [him] to human beings?

Does the GOD have no form in which to do this for himself?

Apparently [he] does according to the stories. But apparently human beings would drop dead if he did. Apparently Adam and Eve did not suffer that fate, so perhaps it was not the GOD who sought them out in the garden and killed the beast of the field in order to clothe their naked shameful forms.

Who is to say for sure that any Angels are really ambassadors to any GOD other than their own selves, playing games with human beings and confusing humans by playing both good and evil roles as it suits their agenda?

Indeed, perhaps the biblical culture is not even about a GOD at all, and has been shaped by 'Angels' and perhaps 'Angels' are no more or less than ET or inter-dimensional beings intent on keeping humans from understanding the true nature of GOD and their connection with that nature, by pretending to be representatives of an idea of a GOD which is NOT true at all.

The point being, we cannot know but we best not assume that just because 'the bible tell us so' that it necessary must be so.

Which is precisely WHY I am okay with the notion of GOD (as per my own theology as a theist) but not okay with so-called 'messengers of GOD' set up to mediate between the individual and GOD, be they organised religion, books, pamphlets, door-knockers, political/cultural representatives, visions of unearthly beings, et al.
That is just asking for trouble and one is best to take great care not to presume off an emotionally based platform that what one is shown or told is the truth, must automatically BE the truth just because it sounds authoritative, is presented in a way which looks genuine or is something one simply wishes to hear.

[Tart]

(I have only read the first post)

I dont believe the story of Abraham and the sacrifice of Isaac is immoral... Clearly God didnt even want this to happen, to kill Isaac... That would be like saying any one who jokes around about "killing", is guilty of murder, and is immoral...

Granted this wasnt a joke by God, but what is the intention? Is it to kill Isaac? Clearly its not... Or else Isaac would have been killed, and not stopped from being killed by God...

Actually, far as im concerned, the story of Isaac and Abraham is meant to point to Jesus as the Messiah, Gods only begotten Son, and His death...

The story of Isaac is actually meant to point to Jesus as the Christ... And Jesus, revealed the righteousness of God, when he was put to death, while praying for the forgiveness of those killing him....

This story reflects the pinnacle of righteousness...

[bluethread]

Would such a test from Adonai made Him malevolent toward me? I don't think so. I think it would have affirmed to me my commitment to Adonai and at the same time reinforced my opposition to abortion, since He would have stopped the abortion before it actually happened.

How does one know that some suggestion emanates from Adonai? I think when we assume we are recipients of a divine command, we must demand evidence that we are dealing with God. A quick check by suicide bombers might have cast some doubt, not on the greatness of their God, but his compliance with murder..... but sadly, the Abraham-Issac affair makes such checks rather difficult since we cannot assume God will never ask us to do wicked things.

Again you are throwing out loaded terms like "murder" and "wicked". Those terms imply a standard. On this thread, the accepted standard appears to be modern western sensibilities. Those sensibilities are not universal in time or place. However, certain things appear to be common among most human interaction. Trust is primarily based on two principles. First, does what is said match what we perceive and, second, does it line up with what has been previously accepted. In the case in question, Avraham has had several encounters with Adonai or one of His messengers. In each of these cases, what was revealed came to pass, lining up with what was familiar to Avraham. Also, the request was a rare, but common practice of the time. So, even though it might have made Avraham uncomfortable, and appear atrocious to us, at the time it would appear to be a reasonable request. The event therefore, serves to address to concerns, does Avraham believe in Adonai to the extent that others of His time believe in there deities and does Adonai indeed require Avraham to express that belief in the same way. The answers are Avraham is as committed to Adonai as others are to their deities and no Adonai does not require His people to express that belief in the same way.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 84 by William]

Why do you presume that - after you considered supporting an abortion you then decide to go ahead with it, but a GOD stops it from going ahead anyway?

Since you are giving an analogy, what if the GOD refrained from intervention and the abortion went ahead?

Good counter-argument.

Bluethread...have you taken part in other threads discussing free will before? I honestly can't remember. Whether you have or you haven't, are of you of the persuasion that your God intervenes in decisions you make? Doesn't the fact that abortions to the tunes of thousands/tens of thousands being performed daily show that your God doesn't stop abortions?

I have not addressed the "free-will" issue, because I do not think there is sufficient information to draw a clear resolution. At present I see it as a matter of perspective. My actions may be predetermined, but I can not live that way, because I do not know what has been determined. As in Avraham's time, there are many that are sacrificed and, if I were to accept the standards of my day as proper, a request from a deity to allow my offspring to be aborted, would seem reasonable. However, it has been made clear to me, by the example of the passage in question, that such a sacrifice on my part would not be proper.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 76 by William]

Perhaps a good start is not to use abrahamic religious labels by calling child abuse 'evil' and instead use a more secular phrase, such as 'mentally unstable'?

A common misconception of atheists is that since we have no basis for morality, then we cannot judge anything as good or evil. An atheist can judge good and evil using reason and by appealing to commonly accepted morality. That's what I'm doing on this thread; I'm judging Abrahamic child abuse as evil because it does much harm and violates the commonly held moral tenet that child abuse is wrong.