Silent no More: The Rise of the New Atheists

[Jagella]

I read some very good news in the April 2018 Scientific American. Michael Shermer writes in his Skeptic column "that 23 percent of all Americans have forsaken religion all together." The 23 percent figure is based on a 2013 Harris Poll and corroborated by a 2015 Pew Research Center poll. It is a "dramatic increase" from 2007 when only 16 percent of polled Americans said they were affiliated with no religion.

Why these poll results are so important to me is that the real good news is that America has a chance to lead the world with a new sense of social responsibility. We atheists can succeed where religionists have failed. As religion and superstition decline; science, critical thinking, and true morality can increase. We can level the playing field for all Americans granting everybody a chance to make something out of themselves. Let's leave religion and all its "bad fruit" behind forever!

Our efforts to turn the tables on Christianity appear to be working. Do you agree?

[benchwarmer]

Anybody that leaves the faith was never with us to begin with...

How often is that tired statement made by Christians? For some reason I guess it makes some current Christians feel better about themselves or something. Really, I want to know why people say this.

Is it like a departing insult or something? One would think the Christian response would be more like "they have temporarily lost their way, we have confidence they will find their way back". At least that is supported by scripture. Remember that your Jesus didn't come for the righteous.

[alexxcJRO]

No one said it did. I'm simply pointing out that your assertion that he is religious is erroneous.

It's also rather humorous to see you now arguing Brown's beliefs regarding God are irrelevant, when you made the exact opposite argument in your previous post when you assumed he was religious. It's always nice to see someone refute their own ad hominem argument.

Please don't distort what i said.

I didn't said he is wrong because he is religious.

I just made an observation which is correct, usually Christians have problems with definitions regarding religious terminology. The debate in this thread here proves my point i am afraid. For tea pot sake one Christian has said many times on this forum that the dictionary is the atheist's God.

It's rather humorous how almost all theist i debated in real life and on this forum had problems with dictionaries when it concerned religious words, but they didn't seemed to have any problems with the words that were not religious.

I bet many Christians when they don't know a meaning of a word that's non-religious they look in the dictionary. But when it comes to religious terminology they look hard to hidden meanings on other places or conjure their own meanings in order to fit their preconceived ideas.

Right, and a possible position one can take with regard to God and God's relation to the world is skepticism of God's existence.
Not necessarily. As the parentheses here indicate, this is an assumption you've read into the definition

Nonsensical rambling because one cannot admit being wrong.

The “this assumes God exists� is implied by the definition dear sir.

Atheism is the rejection of theology aka there are no Gods available to study. Theology is the study of God or gods and assumes there is a God or gods from the start.

It’s illogical to say an atheist studies the God's relation to the world when he does not believe God exists.

It’s like saying an astronomer studies the interaction of black holes with the universe but he does not believe in the existence of the black holes or a geologist studies the forming of earthquakes, volcanic activity, mountain-building, and oceanic trench occur along tectonic plate boundaries but yet he does not believe in tectonic plates existence.


It's rather humorous how you ignore the examples i gave of theological positions which clearly go along with the definitions.

Look, as fun as it is to quibble over words, this is really neither here nor there in the discussion. I'll leave you to it, as there are far more interesting things to discuss.

It's rather humorous that now that you see the you most likely are wrong your paddling back.

[alexxcJRO]

This does not answer the question put to you. Also - assuming then that the OT GOD said that all adulterers should be stoned to death, what do you make of the story where the crowd tested Jesus and he told them that those without sin could cast the first stone, and when no one did cast the stones, the adulterous was spared?
It appears to me that either Jesus was not representing the OT idea of GOD, or if he was, then he has changed his mind.
Assuming also that Jesus was without sin, even his allowing for that anyone without sin could throw the first stone, Jesus himself did not throw a stone at the adulterer.

With all that in mind, it does appear that your reasoning above is faulty.

Why not simply answer my question and bring the actual quotes that Jesus orders Christians to murder others?

Or - failing that, admit that you are misleading/mislead.

Nonsensical ramblings devoid of any logic in order to defend contradictions in the Bible.

My reasoning is not faulty.

The conclusion : " Therefore they would be following Jesus’s orders." follows logically from the premise that Jesus is God, part of the triune God along with Yahweh.

The fact the Jesus words contradict Yahweh words it is not my problem. This is Bible's problem.

My logic has revealed a major inconsistency, contradiction.

You are doing what many Christians do in order to defend Jesus, you go into special pleading mode.

But what you are clueless about it's just you are being fallacious.

"Special pleading (or claiming that something is an overwhelming exception) is a logical fallacy asking for an exception to a rule to be applied to a specific case, without proper justification of why that case deserves an exemption. Usually this is because in order for an argument to work, a proponent needs to provide some way to get out of a logical inconsistency — in a lot of cases, this will be the fact that the argument contradicts past arguments or actions."

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Special_pleading

Q: Why should i ignore the God's(Yahweh's) directives from Deuteronomy(let's not forget they include the 10 commandments)? Why should i ignore the most important creed in Christianity, the idea Jesus is God part of triune God?:-s

Observations: An immutable, omniscient being that changes his mind is an illogical concept.

[alexxcJRO]

All that killing you suggest is obsolete! Why do you pretend the old Christian practices are the view of modern and moderate Christians? Dishonest presentation?

Stop that, please! We live in 2018.

I did no such thing. Please do not straw man me.

My argument was that Christians in the past have killed millions of women, non-believers, gays as a direct result of scripture,ecclesiastical edicts, tradition, and clerical authority; and i supplied the verses.

Q: Do you reject all Deuteronomy Yahweh's directives? (Yes/No question)
Q: If not all why do you accept some and reject the others? What is your justification dear sir?
Q: Do you ignore all Old Testament? (Yes/No question)
Q: If not all why do you accept some parts and reject the others parts? What is your justification dear sir?

[Aetixintro]

I did no such thing. Please do not straw man me.

My argument was that Christians in the past have killed millions of women, non-believers, gays as a direct result of scripture,ecclesiastical edicts, tradition, and clerical authority; and i supplied the verses.

Q: Do you reject all Deuteronomy Yahweh's directives? (Yes/No question)
Q: If not all why do you accept some and reject the others? What is your justification dear sir?
Q: Do you ignore all Old Testament? (Yes/No question)
Q: If not all why do you accept some parts and reject the others parts? What is your justification dear sir?

Q1: No! (For the 10 Commandments.)
Q2: The 10 Commandments are still valid and good. Also with the Golden Rule.
Q3: No!
Q4: Some is now "updated" to a modern and moderate belief. That The Mosaic Laws are obsolete. Plus, plus, plus... I'm also in the process of writing a commentary for exactly modern and moderate Christianity, also without contradictions, named: The Scientific Bible 2.0.

What you also comment about millions killed seems unfounded to me. You must account for situations of war, hypocrites, monsters in the ranks, coarse legal system and so on...

[alexxcJRO]

Q1: No! (For the 10 Commandments.)
Q2: The 10 Commandments are still valid and good. Also with the Golden Rule.
Q3: No!
Q4: Some is now "updated" to a modern and moderate belief. That The Mosaic Laws are obsolete. Plus, plus, plus... I'm also in the process of writing a commentary for exactly modern and moderate Christianity, also without contradictions, named: The Scientific Bible 2.0.

Firstly,

This would imply the others are not good.
So your basically saying the other Yahweh's directives are bad.

Q: So do you think your God uttered bad directives to Moses?

Secondly,

You mean these 10 commandments:

Here are the ten commandments God wrote again on the tablets after Moses broke the first tablets:

"The New Stone Tablets
The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.� "…

1. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

2. Do not make any idols.

3. Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you.

4. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.

5. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest.

6. Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

7. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel.

8. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

9. Bring the best of the first fruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

10. Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.

“Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.� 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.�(Exodus 34)

These are pretty ridiculous mostly “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk�.

What you also comment about millions killed seems unfounded to me. You must account for situations of war, hypocrites, monsters in the ranks, coarse legal system and so on...

Yeah it's preposterous to think that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of women were killed after being accused of witchcraft because of verses like "Do not allow a sorceress to live. "

Common man be serious.

[Realworldjack]

Q1: No! (For the 10 Commandments.)
Q2: The 10 Commandments are still valid and good. Also with the Golden Rule.
Q3: No!
Q4: Some is now "updated" to a modern and moderate belief. That The Mosaic Laws are obsolete. Plus, plus, plus... I'm also in the process of writing a commentary for exactly modern and moderate Christianity, also without contradictions, named: The Scientific Bible 2.0.

Firstly,

This would imply the others are not good.
So your basically saying the other Yahweh's directives are bad.

Q: So do you think your God uttered bad directives to Moses?

Secondly,

You mean these 10 commandments:

Here are the ten commandments God wrote again on the tablets after Moses broke the first tablets:

"The New Stone Tablets
The Lord said to Moses, “Chisel out two stone tablets like the first ones, and I will write on them the words that were on the first tablets, which you broke.� "…

1. Do not worship any other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.

2. Do not make any idols.

3. Celebrate the Festival of Unleavened Bread. For seven days eat bread made without yeast, as I commanded you.

4. The first offspring of every womb belongs to me, including all the firstborn males of your livestock, whether from herd or flock.

5. Six days you shall labor, but on the seventh day you shall rest.

6. Celebrate the Festival of Weeks with the first fruits of the wheat harvest, and the Festival of Ingathering at the turn of the year.

7. Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Sovereign Lord, the God of Israel.

8. Do not offer the blood of a sacrifice to me along with anything containing yeast, and do not let any of the sacrifice from the Passover Festival remain until morning.

9. Bring the best of the first fruits of your soil to the house of the Lord your God.

10. Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk.

“Then the Lord said to Moses, “Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.� 28 Moses was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights without eating bread or drinking water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant—the Ten Commandments.�(Exodus 34)

These are pretty ridiculous mostly “Do not cook a young goat in its mother’s milk�.

What you also comment about millions killed seems unfounded to me. You must account for situations of war, hypocrites, monsters in the ranks, coarse legal system and so on...

Yeah it's preposterous to think that tens of thousands if not hundreds of thousands of women were killed after being accused of witchcraft because of verses like "Do not allow a sorceress to live. "

Common man be serious.

I would like to point something out here. If you will notice, after God gave the tablets to Moses, God instructed Moses,

Write down these words, for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel.

So then, who was this "covenant" made between? Well, it would seem it was between God, and Israel. I am not Jewish myself, and have never been a part of Israel.

However, this is not the only covenant that God has made. God also made a covenant with Abraham. This was a unilateral covenant, meaning that God made all the promises, and called down all the curses upon himself, if the covenant promises failed to be met. This means this covenant depended in no way upon Abraham. Moreover, this covenant was as everlasting covenant.

Now let us compare this covenant, with the one you are referring too, which is the covenant between Israel, and God. This covenant is a temporal covenant, and Israel's status in the land is dependent upon the conditions of the covenant.

So then, as we can see, the covenant made with Israel, is a temporal covenant, and was never intended to be binding upon anyone else. On the other hand, the covenant with Abraham was an everlasting covenant.

The covenant made with Israel, is a covenant of works, (do this and you will live). The covenant made with Abraham, is a covenant of promise. The question then becomes, should we grab a hold of the covenant of works, that depends upon our ability to keep promises? Or, do we grab a hold of the covenant that depends upon The One, and Only True, Promise Keeper?

This should explain clearly why we as Christians are not bound to the covenant made with Israel. We are not, because we should understand, any covenant that depends upon us, and out ability to keep promises, could never stand.

Next, and off the topic, I would like to point something out in your signature. It says there,

God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not created us to invent him.

The word, "created" here seems out of place. Would this word not insinuate a "creator?" If not, would it not at least necessitate some sort of purpose? Did, or does evolution have a purpose?

[For_The_Kingdom]

How often is that tired statement made by Christians? For some reason I guess it makes some current Christians feel better about themselves or something. Really, I want to know why people say this.

It's not necessarily what they say...it is what the Bible say...and as a Christian, saying/doing what the Bible say isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Is it like a departing insult or something?

Take it how you want to take it.

One would think the Christian response would be more like "they have temporarily lost their way, we have confidence they will find their way back".

Well, that's not what John said.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 87 by Realworldjack]

This is a really good point. How do they, the ?Abrahamic? peoples, enforce God’s covenant, since He has been remiss on his side of the bargain.
Are their cosmic police you can call?
Will Ptah act as your divine counsel and Thoth judge?
Yes, God has clearly violated an eternal and sacrosanct coventant, one that was unfair to begin with, obviously using omnipotence to cause duress in those subject.
The whole situation seems so unfair to the Abrahamic people’s. Can no one save them?...

[benchwarmer]

One would think the Christian response would be more like "they have temporarily lost their way, we have confidence they will find their way back".

Well, that's not what John said.

I would think you would be more interested in what Jesus said:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

Matthew 9:13 New International Version (NIV)
13 But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy, not sacrifice.’[a] For I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.�