Anyone got proof of God

[nine dog war]

I have heard all the retohric, the Bible versus etc etc etc

What Im looking for is proof to the hypothesis of God. I would love to see tangible proof or if not at least one logical argument. So far I have not seen nor heard either.

Please note the words "Tangible" and "Logical". If wish to use quotes from the religious texts then please prove the vadility of the source. e.g. If you quote from the Bible book of Luke please provide proof Luke existed and was not completly stark raving mad.

Blessed is the mind too small for doubt for it is easily filled with faith.

[katiej49]

Most importantly, the notion that anyone could be forced or made to believe, without going through a process which truly enables them to have real "faith", is a major part of the former and existing problems spawned by religion throughout history. As soon as we DICTATE what others should be believing, no matter who we are (or how RIGHT we think we are), we've most likely stepped over an important line as it relates to mutual respect and basic civility.

no one can be forced to believe. faith is heart thing. you can force someone to do a certain thing, control their actions. but you cant force them to believe in God or anything else. we SHOULD be believing the truth. would you want anyone to believe a lie? I wouldnt.

[melikio]

we SHOULD be believing the truth. would you want anyone to believe a lie? I wouldnt.

The truth is always better.

My main concerns are about how "religion" is so often applied to influence and suggest its "truths". So much of it, has little or nothing to do with Jesus; that's difficult to ignore.

-Mel-

[katiej49]

we SHOULD be believing the truth. would you want anyone to believe a lie? I wouldnt.

The truth is always better.

My main concerns are about how "religion" is so often applied to influence and suggest its "truths". So much of it, has little or nothing to do with Jesus; that's difficult to ignore.

-Mel-

i dont get what you mean. can you give an example?

[Amp]

Greetings,

You've both made good points. I hoped to take this a little outside the box... outside the procribed bounds set by religious dogma and tradition. In science, there are at least two intangibles that are analgous to the intangibles called spirit and reality. One is Dark Matter and the other Dark Energy; however, I can't say which corrosponds with what. The leading discriptive word Dark doesn't denote anything mystical or ominous, it merely means that these two componets of our universe are intangible to our senses and normal detection methods, in fact, I think they both were inferred fron indirect data. And a funny thing about dark energy is it is by the best hypothesies it is present everywhere in the universe simultaneously and evenly distributed. <ooohhh>

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... nergy.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 322-1.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 10105.html

http://www.astro.uni-bonn.de/~webiaef/o ... arkenergy/

These are just to provide some material for those who haven't heard of 'Dark Energy or Dark Matter'

Amp

[katiej49]

Greetings,

You've both made good points. I hoped to take this a little outside the box... outside the procribed bounds set by religious dogma and tradition. In science, there are at least two intangibles that are analgous to the intangibles called spirit and reality. One is Dark Matter and the other Dark Energy; however, I can't say which corrosponds with what. The leading discriptive word Dark doesn't denote anything mystical or ominous, it merely means that these two componets of our universe are intangible to our senses and normal detection methods, in fact, I think they both were inferred fron indirect data. And a funny thing about dark energy is it is by the best hypothesies it is present everywhere in the universe simultaneously and evenly distributed. <ooohhh>

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... nergy.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 322-1.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 10105.html

http://www.astro.uni-bonn.de/~webiaef/o ... arkenergy/

These are just to provide some material for those who haven't heard of 'Dark Energy or Dark Matter'

Amp

dont know what it is...but i'll look...thanks!

[Furrowed Brow]

Greetings,

You've both made good points. I hoped to take this a little outside the box... outside the procribed bounds set by religious dogma and tradition. In science, there are at least two intangibles that are analgous to the intangibles called spirit and reality. One is Dark Matter and the other Dark Energy; however, I can't say which corrosponds with what. The leading discriptive word Dark doesn't denote anything mystical or ominous, it merely means that these two componets of our universe are intangible to our senses and normal detection methods, in fact, I think they both were inferred fron indirect data. And a funny thing about dark energy is it is by the best hypothesies it is present everywhere in the universe simultaneously and evenly distributed. <ooohhh>

http://www.lbl.gov/Science-Articles/Arc ... nergy.html
http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 322-1.html

http://www.space.com/scienceastronomy/a ... 10105.html

http://www.astro.uni-bonn.de/~webiaef/o ... arkenergy/

These are just to provide some material for those who haven't heard of 'Dark Energy or Dark Matter'

Amp

Hi Amp,

Sorry Dark Matter and Dark Energy are in no way analogous to spirit, and you need to fill me in on what you mean by reality.

Both dark matter and energy are hypothetical concepts invented to explain very real phenomena. 1/ Galaxies spinning too fast if all they contain is their observed mass - so it is plausible to posit unseen mass. 2/ An expanding universe that appears to be accelerating - so it is plausible to posit an unknown form of energy.

At some future point both ideas may be found to be correct or wanting. Science is not committed to their existence. The commitment is to explaining what is observed. If better ideas come along then Science will adopt those ideas.

A couple more much better understood entities but never directly observed: quarks and the nucleus of an atom.

[melikio]

we SHOULD be believing the truth. would you want anyone to believe a lie? I wouldnt.

The truth is always better.

My main concerns are about how "religion" is so often applied to influence and suggest its "truths". So much of it, has little or nothing to do with Jesus; that's difficult to ignore.

-Mel-

i dont get what you mean. can you give an example?

Sure, I'll try. (I'm better at seeing these things intuitively and living accordingly, than actually explaining them.)

I was raised as a Christian. That means I was indoctrinated (told what to believe). Not that anyone in my family did that to oppress me, but that they believed it was the right thing to do. I was ok/fine with that.

Later, as I grew older, especially as I began to realize that being homosexual was a problem for many Christians, I began to observe just how selectively-harsh the "Christians" who spoke most vehemently against homosexuality and gay people, were typically UNLIKE the character of Jesus Christ. And it's interesting as I think about it, because the more I needed help to deal with literally the greatest burden of my life, the less "love" (gentleness, kindness, patience, understanding, grace...) I witnessed coming from religious Christian people. I couldn't help but see the "contrast" between the "religion" of many Christians and the "Saviour" of those same people.

It was many years later, that I found Ghandi pointed out something very similar, when he implied that "Jesus" was very likable and many of his followers were not. And as a gay person, I know exactly what he meant. I have met or heard of very few Christians, who likely have a considerable understanding of what kind of LOVE is referred to in John 3:16 and verses like it.

About 5 years ago, I basically began giving up on the "religion" of Christians, and put my hopes and trust in the person of Jesus; I just couldn't see any plus in what many Christians were doing to others in the name of what they believed was right. Nearly every message I heard about being a homosexual, put me in an impossibly difficult position, that was just so UNREAL to me. I mean, could God Himself have HATED me as much as some Christians seemed to indicate (by their interpretations of Scripture and related policies)? And make no mistake about it, nearly 40+ years in the closet, showed me the REAL feelings many who claim to be followers of Jesus were holding in. From that, I even learned to hate myself (for being gay).

I knew Jesus was different than the terrible world many Christians (certainly not all) set up for gay people. It was a difference that I could not ignore, anymore than my own existence. Yes, nearly 40 years of seeing the differences I'm pointing out, told me that there are real questions, despite what many would claim as "truth" (or the FINAL answer/s). For me, the title "Christian", was simply replaced (in my heart) with "God help me."

And I have asked sincerely for help with everything that human beings face; even those issues that some believe they can handle via their "religion" or "doctrines". I have received answers, but no more do I believe I have THE answers for everyone else; some things are revealed to others in ways I could surely never match. The thing I'm most certain of, is that sacrificial type of LOVE (John 3:16 and the related effects of it) is the most effective cure for what ails mankind, that I have ever experienced or witnessed in my lifetime.

-Mel-

[katiej49]

we SHOULD be believing the truth. would you want anyone to believe a lie? I wouldnt.

The truth is always better.

My main concerns are about how "religion" is so often applied to influence and suggest its "truths". So much of it, has little or nothing to do with Jesus; that's difficult to ignore.

-Mel-

i dont get what you mean. can you give an example?

Sure, I'll try. (I'm better at seeing these things intuitively and living accordingly, than actually explaining them.)

I was raised as a Christian. That means I was indoctrinated (told what to believe). Not that anyone in my family did that to oppress me, but that they believed it was the right thing to do. I was ok/fine with that.

Later, as I grew older, especially as I began to realize that being homosexual was a problem for many Christians, I began to observe just how selectively-harsh the "Christians" who spoke most vehemently against homosexuality and gay people, were typically UNLIKE the character of Jesus Christ. And it's interesting as I think about it, because the more I needed help to deal with literally the greatest burden of my life, the less "love" (gentleness, kindness, patience, understanding, grace...) I witnessed coming from religious Christian people. I couldn't help but see the "contrast" between the "religion" of many Christians and the "Saviour" of those same people.

mel....i believe homosexuality is a sin...having said that, i too am a sinner. i do agree the Christian church should reach out to homosexuals like we do other sinners, its no worse a sin than any other, although it often causes great pain in families and for the homosexual person (like adultery, it can affect the entire family when some announces they are gay)........."He that is without sin cast the first stone"...i cant toss a pebble at you............Gods grace covers all sin, for those willing to accept it through Jesus......blessings to you

[melikio]

mel....i believe homosexuality is a sin...

If only the majority of Christians didn't go any further than you just did in your last post...

And if more of them were a better reflection of Jesus, I might see where they could be an encouragement to ALL who are dealing with being "human".

Peace,

-Mel-

[SB Habakuk]

Proof of God- Every pagan goes up to his own temple- Every atheist must contemplate the very excistance of God to come to his conclusion - THERE IS NO GOD- that is what some say

SOme seek empirical proof of GOd - others seek only after the vanities of their heart- If both seek both will be rewarded with what he seeks- THe one seeking proof of God will find him and the other seeking after what is vain will also find it to the destruction of his soul.

Atheism and theism are twins just as life and death are twins- good and evil even- but what is deemed truly "GOD" is i the indivisible that has not hinged on any other thing

It is that which is alone conscious of its existance