Justify the belief that gods do not exist.

[wiploc]

Some people believe that gods do not exist. (One can call this position "atheism" or "strong atheism" or "anti-theist perversion," anything you want. But we aren't going to argue terminology in this thread. Clarity is good, so you can explain what you personally mean by "atheist," but you shouldn't suggest that other usages are inferior.)

This thread is to make a list of arguments, of reasons to believe that theism is false.

And we can discuss the soundness of those arguments.

I'll start:

1. The Parable of the Pawnbroker.
(I'll just post titles here, so as not to take too much space at the top of each thread.)

2. Presumptive Falsity of Outrageous Claims.



Feel free to add to this list.

[Zzyzx]

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It is permissible to attack arguments presented. Doing so is known as debate and is not considered a personal insult.

I know that. The point is that attacking the person (ad hominem) is not attcking the argument. Which is the case here.

If you think that someone has attacked you personally use the report function or send a PM directly to Otseng.

If one does not believe in fairies that includes all fairies and not "except for one". Agreed?

Clearly not. Believers on Yahweh for example tend to disbelieve in all other gods. In fact generally with religions followers are atheist towards all gods but one. So that is a perfect counter to your rebuttal.

I doubt that your "perfect counter" is agreeable to believers in any of the gods -- or that they consider themselves Atheists.

Or as someone said, "Christians are Atheists but make an exception for one god while disbelieving in thousands".

If a person believes in one fairy (even if it is only one) they are a believer and not a non-believer. Right?

Apply the same to gods. If a person believes in one god, say the Bible God for example, they are a believer (even if they disbelieve in all competing gods). If another person does not believe in ANY of the proposed gods, they are a non-believer. Right?

Is that really a difficult concept to understand?

What has that concept got to do with the point I raised? (That the given definition was problematic)

Oh, you raised a point? Perhaps it got lost among the complaints.

[parsivalshorse]

.

It is permissible to attack arguments presented. Doing so is known as debate and is not considered a personal insult.

I know that. The point is that attacking the person (ad hominem) is not attcking the argument. Which is the case here.

If you think that someone has attacked you personally use the report function or send a PM directly to Otseng.

Ok, done.

If one does not believe in fairies that includes all fairies and not "except for one". Agreed?

Clearly not. Believers on Yahweh for example tend to disbelieve in all other gods. In fact generally with religions followers are atheist towards all gods but one. So that is a perfect counter to your rebuttal.

I doubt that your "perfect counter" is agreeable to believers in any of the gods -- or that they consider themselves Atheists.

Or as someone said, "Christians are Atheists but make an exception for one god while disbelieving in thousands".

If a person believes in one fairy (even if it is only one) they are a believer and not a non-believer. Right?

Apply the same to gods. If a person believes in one god, say the Bible God for example, they are a believer (even if they disbelieve in all competing gods). If another person does not believe in ANY of the proposed gods, they are a non-believer. Right?

Is that really a difficult concept to understand?

What has that concept got to do with the point I raised? (That the given definition was problematic)

Oh, you raised a point? Perhaps it got lost among the complaints.

[ttruscott]

In other words, I can prove logically that the literal Bible is blatant example of many logical contradictions. The Biblical God that is literally described by the Bible cannot logically exist because the bible literally contradicts its own God countless times throughout the biblical literature.

Yes, "contradictions" exist in the Bible. But, that in itself does not disprove Christianity.

There are many possibilities to account for contradictions.

Have you rejected the possibility that so called contradictions and errors are built in on purpose to enable the fulfillment of such verses as: 1 Corinthians 2:14 The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. which forces all sincere searchers of the truth to seek GOD, not their own understanding?

Or 1 Corinthians 1:21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. which implies that GOD nor HIS book can be understood by human wisdom and logical analysis.

Jude 1:19 These are the people who divide you, who follow mere natural instincts (logic without wisdom?) and do not have the Spirit.

[ttruscott]

5. The Problem of Evil.

There is no problem of Evil in YHWH's system... Please describe it so I can rebuy it , eh?

[ttruscott]

This is only for the people that keep saying God existed before time began.

Premises
1. God existed before time began
2. Something, anything, exists

Intermediary
3. By definition of before & beginning, there is no thing before the beginning of time (the beginning is first)
4. (from 1+3) God is a subset of nothing
5. (from 2) Nothing does not exist

Conclusion
6. God does not exist

God's pretemporal existence entails contradiction

Surely your conclusion should also include the possibility that the premise is wrong; HE doesn't live outside of time but inside of time as befits Three people in perfect loving communion?

[ttruscott]

OK here is my proof against theism!!!!

______________________________________________________

definition of gods: A supernatural being that consciously effects the physical world.
______________________________________________________
1. Life exists as a biological process observable in the natural world

Accepted.

2. consciousness is a bi-product of a living system

Please prove consciousness is not the cause of life.

3. gods don't exist as physical entities in the natural world

Since GOD physically on earth has been claimed to be true, what proofs do you offer that your statement is true?

4. gods are not living systems

One claim of YHWH over all other (false) gods is that HE and HE only is the one true Living GOD. What proof do you offer that your blanket statement is true?

6. Since gods are not living systems they are not conscious

A blanket statement about gods in general built on false premises.

7. since gods are neither alive or conscious they do not exist

Unsupported claim.

[ttruscott]

This can be demonstrated by damage to the brain.

countless cases have demonstrated how this effects conscious thought. Even furhter still the more brain damage that is sustained the greater damage to ones psyche entails. Finally conscious thought ceases when brain activity ceases.

Congruence does not prove causality.

It has been proven by experience that damage to the start system of a car impairs its ability to start and the the ability to start at all ceases when the starter system ceases to function at all.

Therefore there is no such thing as a person behind the turning of the key or the creation of all the car's systems.

[JoeyKnothead]

From POST 876:

2. consciousness is a bi-product of a living system

Please prove consciousness is not the cause of life.

I refer folks to the thread and such for full context.


The proposition that consciousness is the cause of life is the whole religious deal there, where, "God said for it needed to happen, and don't it beat all, right then and there did it happen, and I'm here to tell it, he ain't happy with how it is you carry on".


Life need not be the "cause" of consciousness, so much as a requirement to have you some of it. By declaring it a 'cause', we risk the assumption that's what it is life was set to do.

Consciousness is 'merely' the result of the ability to receive and analyze sensory input.

[ttruscott]

Is the absence of evidence proof positive that no deer exist in the game preserve? Of course not BUT it is strong indication that the promoter isn't telling the truth.

Where has it been proven that GOD has promised to be seen by anyone if they go to a certain place at a certain time? Your analogy fails in that such advertising is not in the Bible.

Contrarily:
John 1:18 No one has ever seen God, but the one and only Son, who is himself God and is in closest relationship with the Father, has made him known. Why? Exodus 33:20 But," he said, "you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live."

Isaiah 45:15 Truly, you are a God who hides himself, O God of Israel, the Savior.

Etc.

[ttruscott]

Proof that a god or gods do not exist is a difficult thing...just kidding.

I imagine that if any of us were to witness a grown man forcing himself sexually onto a child, that we would intervene (at worst) or more likely kill the perpetrator (at best). If a so called benevolent god(s) exist(s) then how could he allow this sort of thing to occur.

Those who could be saved from their evil (elect sinners) did rebel against GOD when the time came to judge those who could not be saved from their evil (reprobate sinners) so GOD had the eternally evil live with and monster the sinful elect and each other until the sinful elect gave up their idolatry of the reprobate and accepted that the judgement is the only way to handle their evil.

GOD teaches us about the necessity of judgement by allowing evil. Pharaoh and Satan's attack on the most holy old man in the world merely because he was allowed are cases in point. If left to their own, these two and all like them inevitably turn in anger and hatred against HIM, HIS Church and HIS people. Once that is proven to all who can be converted from evil and they choose holiness, the judgement day will commence.

So it was never the plan to live with evil but this decision to allow evil within HIS world was forced upon HIM by the evil choices of the sinful elect when they idolized the reprobate over HIS word that the judgement was necessary.