Is belief a choice?

[Justin108]

Christians tell me all the time that atheist deserve hell because they "chose" to reject god by not believing in him. They tell me that of I believe then I will be saved as though I can simply choose what I want to believe. How is belief a choice?

If I offered you $10 000 to believe that I was George Clooney, would you start choosing to believe I'm George Clooney?

[Justin108]

So you agree that belief is based on decisions. I never said belief is a decision. I said it is based on a decision.

Umm... yes you did

A person does choose what they believe in.

You make a decision which informs or leads to belief.

What decision do I need to make in order to believe in Christianity?

If beliefs were automatic in the sense you described, a persons belief would never be predicated on a decision.

I make the decision to eat a pepper but once I do that, feeling a burning sensation becomes an automatic process. I don't tell my body "ok, now you need to start feeling a burning sensation". My body does this automatically.

Similarly, I make a decision to read the Bible. Once I do that, I don't tell my brain "reject these claims". No, my brain does this part automatically.

Reading the Bible = voluntary
Believing the Bible = involuntary

Fetal Development-from Conception to Birth

Time
Fetal Development
Day 6
The embryo is implanted in the uterus at this stage
Day 22
The baby’s heartbeat starts as the blood flow begins. The baby often has a different blood type from the mother.
Week 3
Baby’s spine and the nervous system form. Other organs like the liver, kidney and intestines take shape.
Week 4
The child is now 10,000 times the size of the egg when it was first fertilized.
Week 5
Baby’s limbs (hands and legs) begin to grow.
Week 6
Brain waves are detectable. The lips, mouth and fingernails develop.

http://www.newhealthguide.org/When-Does ... tbeat.html

Am I missing something? What is this supposed to prove?

Like all assumptions I may be wrong, but as of yet, you have still yet to provide anything more than your opinion.

Wait... so you form an assumption, and it becomes my job to prove your assumption wrong? Are you familiar with the burden of proof?

[PghPanther]

[Replying to Justin108]

The problem with the idea of choice from a Christian prospective is that they presuppose that first a God exists............second that it is a personal interactive God............and third that the doctrine of its revelations to humans is found and understood in the Bible.

But for a person who questions all three presuppositions of the Christian how can it be a choice for them?

If you are to reject God or Christ's salvation on the cross.......you first have to believe that this God exists and Christ as God manifested in human form did as well.

If there is no evidence for such a claim you are not making a choice if you don't believe it exists or is validate in the first place.

Look at it this way..........do you believe that aliens from the Roswell crash have communicated to our government in how to back engineer anti-gravity crafts with our military in the area 51 secret base?

Its like...........wait a minute.......before you even get on the subject of aliens telling us how to back engineer crafts you can't slip a claim that they existed here to begin with............

No its not a choice that I don't believe in God or Christ.....no more than I choose not to believe in Santa and his flying sleigh.......

For me it is reality that compels me to accept there is no divine being interacting on behalf of humanity for any eternal consequences.

In the final analysis it not a choice that I either believe in a personal God or accept the doctrine of salvation through Christ.........no more than it is a choice I have to not believe in Superman as a hero to the Earth because I just don't have to make a choice in something that doesn't exist in reality to begin with..........

If superman really existed and I didn't believe he did then I would be making a choice not to believe he did................as it is, I don't have a choice in the matter for something that doesn't exist...............

The only person who has a choice in something that doesn't show any validate of existing in reality are those who "choose" to believe it does...........

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 91 by Justin108]

So you agree that belief is based on decisions. I never said belief is a decision. I said it is based on a decision.

Umm... yes you did

A person does choose what they believe in.

You make a decision which informs or leads to belief.

Neither of these statements you quoted from me say belief is a decision. Both statements show that beliefs are the result of decisions. If I mix the right ingredients and put it in the oven, I will get a cake. The decisions are the ingredients. I did not say decision = belief. This would be like saying flour = cake. No, what I said was decision lead to or inform our beliefs. By combining decisions you will result in a belief. Some beliefs require a single decision while others require more than one.

The result (belief) is based upon decisions or conclusions a person has made.

What decision do I need to make in order to believe in Christianity?

This is a nonsensical question. Christianity is a term used to describe those who have placed their belief in Christ. Since Christianity is a descriptive term, you cannot believe in the adjective. This would be like asking what decision do I need to make in order to believe in nice. The word nice is an adjective that describes behavior.

Now, if you ask what decision does a person need to make to become a Christian, this is different. This is like asking what decisions does a person need to make to become nice. Decisions lead to action. The act of becoming requires a decision.

To answer the appropriate question of what decision does a person need to make to become a Christian, we can look at several passages of the bible.

The decision a person has to make is to: decide to accept the claim of John 3:16-17 or John 10:10 or 1 Timothy 1:15, or the countless other scriptures which point to Jesus coming into the world to save us from the consequences of sin.

I make the decision to eat a pepper but once I do that, feeling a burning sensation becomes an automatic process. I don't tell my body "ok, now you need to start feeling a burning sensation". My body does this automatically.

Similarly, I make a decision to read the Bible. Once I do that, I don't tell my brain "reject these claims". No, my brain does this part automatically.

Reading the Bible = voluntary
Believing the Bible = involuntary

Now you introduce feelings as support for your claim. The response of your tongue to pepper is not a belief. It is a reaction. Your example is flawed. Then you compare a reaction to pepper to a decision to eat pepper. This is not only inadequate but nonsensical. Reaction is not the same as belief. When a person is watching a scary movie, they may react to the movie even thought they know it is not real. Our reactions are automatic. This I agree. The parallel of feelings and beliefs however does not work.

Furthermore, if you decide to read the bible, your brain does not automatically reject what you have read. You make a decision that what you have read either does not make sense, or that what you have read does not align with reality. You choose to reject the possibility that these statements could be true. This is similar to a person choosing to reject the possibility that you could be George Clooney.

If I were to take your same proposition and take you to a country or village that had no access to movies or internet. You made the same offer of $10,000 if someone believes you are George Clooney. Can they truly believe you are George Clooney? Yes, they can take your word and take your money. They would have no reason to reject your claim. They would also have genuine belief that you are George Clooney. This belief may change when you give them new evidence. It also may not. They can choose to either accept the original statement or the new evidence. The decision leads to belief.

In a similar manner, you made a decision that the bible does not make sense to you. This decision led to a belief that the bible is faulty or wrong. Even if presented with new evidence that supports the bible, you choose to reject the new evidence to maintain your original decision.

Am I missing something? What is this supposed to prove?

The fact that the heart (an automated function) begins before our brains, shows you the difference between a true automated process and one that happens at high speeds. You continue to use the word automatic to describe decisions made in the mind at high speeds.

Like all assumptions I may be wrong, but as of yet, you have still yet to provide anything more than your opinion.

Wait... so you form an assumption, and it becomes my job to prove your assumption wrong? Are you familiar with the burden of proof?

The assumption I wrote about here was the assumption that you did not click the links of supporting evidence I provided. Once again, by taking a statement out of context you have led yourself to the wrong conclusion. If you read the entire paragraph, which states

I will assume you ignored the many links I have posted which support how fast the brain makes decisions. Speed of decision is still a decision. Like all assumptions I may be wrong, but as of yet, you have still yet to provide anything more than your opinion.

Not sure how you read paragraphs but the sentences within a paragraph comprise a single theme.

So no my assumption had nothing to do with you proving or disproving anything. My assumption was that you did not check the links which provide support that our decisions inform our beliefs.


ONCE again I will ask you to provide evidence other than your opinion or flawed examples to support your claim that beliefs are automatic.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 87 by OnceConvinced]

Please show where neuroscience disagrees with him or backs up any of your arguments.

This was already provided in earlier posts. See Post 83.

For additional support see below

http://library.mpib-berlin.mpg.de/ft/ex ... g_2003.pdf
http://www.ethics-based-on-science.com/ ... o=away.pdf

It’s quite fascinating that what we are seeing now in single-neuron recordings is not coding for what we see or do—sensory and motor coding—but for the processes involved in how we value and make choices. That’s an important advance in neuroscience. I also think it’s fascinating that, when it comes to decision making, behavior is very adaptive. You can really watch and see how your choice behavior adapts and changes from trial to trial, according to environment and task design, and such changes are reflected in the recorded activity of single neurons.

http://www.kavlifoundation.org/science- ... -FDX_ArI2w

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 94 by KingandPriest]
You claimed persons beliefs not automatic, the stuff you posted says decisions making are not automatic. Not the same thing.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 95 by Bust Nak]

What I claim is that beliefs are based on decisions.
Decision A leads to Decision B and then to Decision C. Over time the collection of decisions is what we call a belief.

In some cases that belief can be a series of complex decisions while in others that belief can be based on a single decision.

This leads me to conclude, since decisions are choices, belief is based on choice.

Outside of personal opinion, there is no credibility to the notion that beliefs are not based on decisions.

[Bust Nak]

[Replying to post 96 by KingandPriest]

Well that's not what the topic is about. Can you choose to believe 2+2=5? Can you choose to disbelieve 2+2=4? Pretty simple questions that should lead you to the conclusion that no, beliefs cannot be chosen.

[KingandPriest]

[Replying to post 97 by Bust Nak]

That is exactly what this topic is about. The title of this discussion is Is belief a choice?

Are we now changing the subject to what can you choose to believe?

[Bust Nak]

That is exactly what this topic is about. The title of this discussion is Is belief a choice?

Are you suggesting that Is belief a choice? is the same thing as is belief based on decisions? What you said here would only make sense if you think they mean the same.

Are we now changing the subject to what can you choose to believe?

No, we should stick to topic by answering whether you can choose to believe or not, and the answer is clearly no, you cannot.

[KingandPriest]

That is exactly what this topic is about. The title of this discussion is Is belief a choice?

Are you suggesting that Is belief a choice? is the same thing as is belief based on decisions? What you said here would only make sense if you think they mean the same.

Are we now changing the subject to what can you choose to believe?

No, we should stick to topic by answering whether you can choose to believe or not, and the answer is clearly no, you cannot.

What is a choice? Are choices and decisions not synonyms. Isn't the process of making choice the same as making a decision.

So the question of Is belief a choice?, is asking whether or not beliefs are the result of a choice a person has made.
Is belief = the choices a person makes.
Is belief = the sum of choices a person makes?

The answer to both of these is yes. Believe is the result of a choice/decision. In some cases to arrive at belief, multiple decisions must be made. Belief is based on the summation of choices.

For those who argue that belief if not a choice or the result of decisions, please explain
1. What belief is
2. How does a person arrive at a belief