If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?
Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)
Thanks!
Why should one care that God exists?
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Why should one care that God exists?
Post #1I'm an atheist but also a former Christian. Instead if asking Christians to show me evidence of god's existence (which there is no objective proof; the Bible isn't proof of anything) why not tell me and other atheists, why is believing relevant? Why should anyone care if a god exists?
If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?
Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)
Thanks!
If a god exists, why does he/it need my buy in?
Why is believing in a god ...necessary to living a good and productive life? (It's not but I'm interested in learning from Christians here, why they feel otherwise)
Thanks!
Every silver lining, has a cloud.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #91
[Replying to post 88 by tortured soul]
What you just explained was confirmation bias. Still even so you have evidence(personal experience) that leads you to make a decision. The problem is though that my personal experiences don't match up with what is written. So which one of us is right?
What you just explained was confirmation bias. Still even so you have evidence(personal experience) that leads you to make a decision. The problem is though that my personal experiences don't match up with what is written. So which one of us is right?
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tortured soul
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Post #92
[Replying to post 90 by DanieltheDragon]
Yet a virus can crash a system, I know, this tragic even took place on one of my computers.
I used to say that truth is subject to the individual, even the individual residing within an insane asylum, one who may believe he is a pitcher of orange juice and if you come close to him he screams because you might spill him- who am I to say that he is wrong? Yet, I will trust my own experiences, for they have been many, and extremely convincing- and nobody has yet to place me in an asylum for what I do believe, which I guess is a good thing, on top of receiving confirmation through written words.
Yet a virus can crash a system, I know, this tragic even took place on one of my computers.
I used to say that truth is subject to the individual, even the individual residing within an insane asylum, one who may believe he is a pitcher of orange juice and if you come close to him he screams because you might spill him- who am I to say that he is wrong? Yet, I will trust my own experiences, for they have been many, and extremely convincing- and nobody has yet to place me in an asylum for what I do believe, which I guess is a good thing, on top of receiving confirmation through written words.
Post #93
I think you need a better analogy. Software does affect hardware. Software itself is really just an abstract objectification of some of the processes the firmware is performing (and the firmware is to the hardware as the software is to the firmware)
Firmware can't be changed by software though.
Though I would say that there is the epigenome which does influence gene expression. The epigenome is influenced by the environment (unlike the genome for most parts) and can be past down.
Firmware can't be changed by software though.
Though I would say that there is the epigenome which does influence gene expression. The epigenome is influenced by the environment (unlike the genome for most parts) and can be past down.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #94
[Replying to Jashwell]
Well what I meant wasn't that software can't effect hardware it can't change the hardware like an INtel chip suddenly becoming an AMD chip. Still I guess it is a bad analogy.
and I didn't want to muddy the waters with epigenomes but it is important to address that things like chemicals and stressors can effect gene expression and these do get passed down. However it is not like if I lie a lot for example that suddenly my genes re-arrange and my offspring have a predisposition to lie a lot.
Well what I meant wasn't that software can't effect hardware it can't change the hardware like an INtel chip suddenly becoming an AMD chip. Still I guess it is a bad analogy.
and I didn't want to muddy the waters with epigenomes but it is important to address that things like chemicals and stressors can effect gene expression and these do get passed down. However it is not like if I lie a lot for example that suddenly my genes re-arrange and my offspring have a predisposition to lie a lot.
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DanieltheDragon
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Post #95
Truth is not really subjective perception is but truth is not. For example 2+2 will always = 4 it doesn't matter if I perceive that 2+2 = Argentina the truth is independent of my belief and perceptions. The insane person is wrong because he is not a pitcher of orange juice he just perceives that he is.tortured soul wrote: [Replying to post 90 by DanieltheDragon]
I used to say that truth is subject to the individual, even the individual residing within an insane asylum, one who may believe he is a pitcher of orange juice and if you come close to him he screams because you might spill him- who am I to say that he is wrong? Yet, I will trust my own experiences, for they have been many, and extremely convincing- and nobody has yet to place me in an asylum for what I do believe, which I guess is a good thing, on top of receiving confirmation through written words.
lets simplify this for you there are 7 people in a room 1 person receives written confirmation to christianity, 1 person receives written confirmation of Islam, 1 person recieves written confirmation of Hinduism, 1 person receives written confirmation of Buddhism , 1 person receives confirmation of Judaism, 1 person is agnostic, 1 person is atheist.
Which one is right? they can't all be right? furthermore since the truth is independent of our beliefs and there are mutually exclusive beliefs in the room. So they can't all be the truth.
So you have written confirmation that your god is real
I have written confirmation that the abrahamic god is not real
who is right?
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tortured soul
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Post #96
[Replying to post 94 by DanieltheDragon]
Let me simplify this for you, truth is subject to the individual- for it is their subjective perception that convinces them. A mental disorder changes the mental subjective perception of the individual, who am I to try to convince that person of what they believe they aren't? In fact, the more I approach, the more they scream, so why bother? I'm not saying they shouldn't be medicated, but who am I to say they are wrong when they believe what they know?
And again, your argument crumbles before your feet, for if in that room all seven have experienced something in what they believe, then they are grounded in their belief, regardless what the written words before them may say- for you know written words can be interpreted in varying degrees to fit the belief system of the individual (denominations within every form of religion is proof of this). If you say they can't all be right, then you are admitting that truth is subjective to the person, and is dependent only upon the individual mind that believes it.
Let me simplify this for you, truth is subject to the individual- for it is their subjective perception that convinces them. A mental disorder changes the mental subjective perception of the individual, who am I to try to convince that person of what they believe they aren't? In fact, the more I approach, the more they scream, so why bother? I'm not saying they shouldn't be medicated, but who am I to say they are wrong when they believe what they know?
And again, your argument crumbles before your feet, for if in that room all seven have experienced something in what they believe, then they are grounded in their belief, regardless what the written words before them may say- for you know written words can be interpreted in varying degrees to fit the belief system of the individual (denominations within every form of religion is proof of this). If you say they can't all be right, then you are admitting that truth is subjective to the person, and is dependent only upon the individual mind that believes it.
Post #97
[Replying to post 95 by tortured soul]
If you say they can't all be right, then you are admitting that truth is subjective to the person, and is dependent only upon the individual mind that believes it.
Or, he could be admitting that they are all wrong.
If you say they can't all be right, then you are admitting that truth is subjective to the person, and is dependent only upon the individual mind that believes it.
Or, he could be admitting that they are all wrong.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
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tortured soul
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Post #98
[Replying to post 93 by DanieltheDragon]
Dealing with genetic impressions, or what is carried with the soul into the womb, not only deals with physical characteristics (is there not a high risk of certain diseases and illnesses passed to children? cancer, diabetes, polycystic ovarian syndrome etc.?), but also personality traits- temper, attitude, gentleness etc.
Like I've said before, I personally know a person who never knew his father, who went to prison for an extreme sexual crime, and the son went to prison for the exact same crime, which he committed at the age of twelve, and is in prison to this day for similar crimes which his father had also committed in his life. I never met my father until I was 21, and while I was staying with him, his wife (a practicing psychiatrist) noticed certain personality characteristics and mental responses which we shared. The soul is an intimate part of the creation process, being effected by the soul in whose "loins" it was preserved and taken from. I am not saying that these impressions can't be denied, regardless how strong they may be, and different impressions be formed. I don't know how many times I've heard people complain that they don't want to be like their parents, yet they make the same mental and physical responses, a few even trying hard not to, some seem to fail, and some seem to overcome. There are even some who say they experience past life experiences, which are visual impressions left from previous generations (this is a theory of others, for I have not experienced this phenomena myself, but have known people who say they have). God, in regards to genetic impressions, warned people to be careful with the decisions and habits they formed in life, because they could have negative effects on their children.
Dealing with genetic impressions, or what is carried with the soul into the womb, not only deals with physical characteristics (is there not a high risk of certain diseases and illnesses passed to children? cancer, diabetes, polycystic ovarian syndrome etc.?), but also personality traits- temper, attitude, gentleness etc.
Like I've said before, I personally know a person who never knew his father, who went to prison for an extreme sexual crime, and the son went to prison for the exact same crime, which he committed at the age of twelve, and is in prison to this day for similar crimes which his father had also committed in his life. I never met my father until I was 21, and while I was staying with him, his wife (a practicing psychiatrist) noticed certain personality characteristics and mental responses which we shared. The soul is an intimate part of the creation process, being effected by the soul in whose "loins" it was preserved and taken from. I am not saying that these impressions can't be denied, regardless how strong they may be, and different impressions be formed. I don't know how many times I've heard people complain that they don't want to be like their parents, yet they make the same mental and physical responses, a few even trying hard not to, some seem to fail, and some seem to overcome. There are even some who say they experience past life experiences, which are visual impressions left from previous generations (this is a theory of others, for I have not experienced this phenomena myself, but have known people who say they have). God, in regards to genetic impressions, warned people to be careful with the decisions and habits they formed in life, because they could have negative effects on their children.
Last edited by tortured soul on Mon Aug 11, 2014 1:01 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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tortured soul
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Post #100
[Replying to post 98 by tortured soul]
Whether there is a divine being or not is not subjective. He either exists or he doesn't.
Whether we know this answer is irrelevant to whether he exists or not.
This same logic can be applied to religion.
So no, it is not subjective.
Whether there is a divine being or not is not subjective. He either exists or he doesn't.
Whether we know this answer is irrelevant to whether he exists or not.
This same logic can be applied to religion.
So no, it is not subjective.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." -Steven Weinberg
