Undeniable and Scientific Evidence of THE Creator.

[Zzyzx]

.
From another thread

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

I await the evidence.

Question for debate: Is the evidence undeniable and scientific (and compelling / convincing) or is it just more of the same stuff that has been presented ad nausea?

[arian]

Here is what Far Wonderer said: "Do you dislike the idea that humans evolved from non-human apes?"

I corrected him that according to the Evolution story, humans didn't evolve from non-human apes, .. you ARE still an evolving animal, an ape,

I said we evolved from apes that were not human. That doesn't mean that we aren't apes.

specifically a chimp.

Definitely not a chimp. Specifically a human. Humans are apes, but we are not chimps. We might have a lot in common with chimps, being as we're both apes, but we are not the same thing.

I have a question: Do you also have a problem being classified as a mammal?

Again, may I ask you this, in your evolution theory: Has one specie, over millions or even billions of years ever evolve into a completely different specie where one can no longer reproduce with the other?

Hitler 'classified' my ancestry on my mothers side as 'rats', so classifications can be very religious and hateful in nature, like taxonomy is.

I will not derail the thread with you, so if you want to learn more on 'evolution', please see the "Evolution" in the Science and Religion sub forum, we covered just about everything there.

Thanks

[Zzyzx]

.

What's so bad about animals?

Nothing, depending how you cook them they usually taste great. But if you believe your children and relatives are animals, it may cause confusion and Grandma might stuff apples in their mouth and try to throw the children in the oven.

Perhaps the Grandma of your reference is not very bright. Not everyone's Grandma lacks the ability to distinguish which animals should be cooked for food and which should not.

It is critical to know which ones are animals, and which are humans created in Gods image.

Are those "made in the image of God" also invisible, undetectable, angry, hostile, jealous, egocentric, warlike and genocidal – as the bible God is depicted in "his" own literature?


Thank you, though, for a religionist perspective and thinking on these matters.

[arian]

From Post 62, Page 7

[center]God

The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".[/center]

Observing the world around me, I look at myself and ask who am I? I am a complex awesome self contained biological unit with self awareness where I can ask; "Who Am I?"

I look in the mirror and I can see my parents in me, and so could they see their parents in them. Infinite regress tells me that there has to be someone uncreated that created man, that is us humans. So there has to be a Creator. But whoever He is, he would have to be infinite and eternal, He cannot have a creator or be of the finite.

So what in this universe is infinite and eternal?

So I look at big things for signs of infinity. Hmm, the universe looks big, but now they tell me that even space is filled with quantum stuff, so even space is created like me, not only that, space reveals entropy or time, so it is not even eternal. There goes space as being infinite and eternal, let alone reason, plan and design. And time which they tell me can evolve things, actually shows that it only destroys things. I know, it is killing me, it killed my parents and billions of other people. Time is NOT a creator, but a destroyer, so that's out. So since the universe is made of finite created stuff, and it ages with time, it cannot be the Creator.

I was running out of the possibility of finding an Eternal, Infinite Creative being that could have planned, designed and created everything in this universe, except Himself/Itself.

So where can I find something Infinite, Eternal that even time couldn't kill, that can plan, reason, create even something as complex as me, but not be of the created as I am?

Someone has suggested we were created by a finite quantum speck of whatever which 13.7 billion years ago resided in who knows what, and without any reason or plan it somehow big-banged creating the universe and us humans? But this whatever, that resided in who knows what is still of the created like me, and infected by entropy/time. it would of died a long, .. long time ago, entropied itself to death. So nope, that's out of the question.

So back again I went to and fro, who or what could have created me and this universe? I heard many other explanation from a supposedly very wise fellow human who seen humans as apes, and apes as some other creatures, all the way back billions of years where he seen man as a tiny single celled bacterium. That maybe this bacterium created me simply by just laying around wasting time!?! But this too is of the created, an unreasonable finite speck at that, from the same source as me. Nope, not this either.

As I was thinking, I read about the Blue brain project and how man is creating a new human 2.0, starting with the brain.
But here too we fall into that infinite regress, man creating man, and the brain is subject to entropy and aging. If they transfer everything from the brain on a CD disk, the disk ages, and the program itself is subject to corruption. The Matrix it may be loaded into is also subject to corruption, and the computer it is residing in needs energy to keep it alive.
So nope, that's out also.

But this triggered something, and it was not my brain. I realized that this light went off in my mind, before I even stored any of it in my brain.

AHA! I said, the mind may be it. So as any good new scientist I tested my mind to see if it is finite, or infinite, and by George I could put earth, our solar system, our galaxy, then I tried to put the entire universe inside my mind, and not only could I put the entire universe in there, I could put as many universes as I wanted to in there.

YES! Yes, my mind passed the scientific test, it IS infinite. But wait, I still don't remember creating the universe or myself!? I am still OF the created then. There has to be a Creator like my mind, but who or what?

The what was out since the Creator Mind has to be self sufficient, and be able to reason, plan design AND create. It has to be a He, the dominant one like man. It started to make sense, God must be an Eternal Infinite, Creative Mind that is alive. What would this someone refer to Himself as, I asked? I was, .. I will be, .. and of course, I Am since He is Eternal and Infinite. I Am knows He is, and wouldn't conflict with His creation like myself who asks "Who am I?"

"Who am I?" is created, and "I Am Who I Am" must be the Creator. It is the only logical acceptable scientific answer; The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".

He is all knowing since he created everything that was created, or that we are a part of, He has all the power like my mind that can create many universes with no great effort at all, He IS, or Eternal so no need to look who created Him since all we need is One Eternal and Infinite, and everything else is the created within Him.

---------------------------------------------------------------

If you want to debate this post; please cut and respond to what I said here, not bring up subjects we debated before.

If you think you are an ape, that is fine. I am not going to debate religion, or your religious views with you. This post is scientific, not about religions and what they believe.

I made this observation in the here and now, as a scientist would, not told you how "I believe may have happened billions of years ago, and explain through some very skeptical assumptions how the mind may have evolved from the brain".

Please debate what I said here. If your opinion is different of who God is or may be, you may start your own OP and present your idea or belief in your god/gods and we can debate that there. Here, let's debate what I claimed here, and point out why you believe if I am wrong.

Thanks everyone, and sorry if I resorted to personal attacks, this has dragged out long enough. Please no more derailing since more then likely I would be the one getting the warning.

[Zzyzx]

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This post is scientific,

Correction: Your post is to science as a cow is to a rock (in my opinion as one who spent decades studying and teaching science).

All you have presented is a personal, emotional testimonial that is totally unverifiable and totally meaningless in science and in debate.

not about religions and what they believe.

It is ALL about your religion and what you believe.

I made this observation in the here and now, as a scientist would,

You convey a very strange idea of what a scientist would do. Scientists tend to demand verification of information upon which conclusions are based – and testing of their ideas and conclusions.

[arian]

.

What's so bad about animals?

Nothing, depending how you cook them they usually taste great. But if you believe your children and relatives are animals, it may cause confusion and Grandma might stuff apples in their mouth and try to throw the children in the oven.

Perhaps the Grandma of your reference is not very bright. Not everyone's Grandma lacks the ability to distinguish which animals should be cooked for food and which should not.

There is no 'brightness' in evolution, grandma ape is hungry and it is a scientific fact that apes eat apes. Besides, human apes even have a children's story about grandma eating, or trying to eat the children, it's called Hansel and Gretel. It also shows that the younger apes survival instinct when working in a pack is much better then the older apes. Grandma ape ended up in the oven.

It is critical to know which ones are animals, and which are humans created in Gods image.

Are those "made in the image of God" also invisible, undetectable, angry, hostile, jealous, egocentric, warlike and genocidal – as the bible God is depicted in "his" own literature?

Your OP here is only on the scientific evidence of God, unless you want me to jump right into 'supporting evidence' from literature? But if I mention the Bible, your instinct will just say; "No, you can't do that, .. I consider that religion, it's religion not science!" and since you refuse to set some ground rules, I will keep the Bible out of it. I will stick with my end of the deal and not allow you to pull me into your rabbit hole.

Thank you, though, for a religionist perspective and thinking on these matters.

See what I mean, rabbit hole?

Thank you, but no comment.

[Zzyzx]

Your OP here is only on the scientific evidence of God,

Correction: YOU claimed to have undeniable and scientific evidence of the creator. Do you forget?

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

The OP asks that you present that evidence.

unless you want me to jump right into 'supporting evidence' from literature?

You claimed to have scientific evidence. Let's see it.

But if I mention the Bible, your instinct will just say; "No, you can't do that, .. I consider that religion, it's religion not science!"

You have no idea what my "instinct will say".

Do you wish to present the bible as "scientific evidence?"

and since you refuse to set some ground rules,

The Forum sets ground rules – such as "substantiate claims" and "opinion is not substantiation." Are those Forum Rules objectionable to you?

I will keep the Bible out of it. I will stick with my end of the deal and not allow you to pull me into your rabbit hole.

Feel free to start presenting the undeniable evidence of the creator that you claimed to possess.

Thank you, though, for a religionist perspective and thinking on these matters.

See what I mean, rabbit hole?

That is no rabbit hole. It is sincere appreciation for you (generic term) who make claims of knowledge that cannot / is not shown to be anything more than opinion, conjecture, folklore, fantasy, fiction, imagination, and/or fraud.

Presenting unverifiable claims and incredible tales reduces a person's credibility and the credibility of the cause they champion.

[arian]

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This post is scientific,

Correction: Your post is to science as a cow is to a rock (in my opinion as one who spent decades studying and teaching science).

Boasting and generalized opinioned attacks are not civil in debate. Please show where I was comparing cows to a rock?

All you have presented is a personal, emotional testimonial that is totally unverifiable and totally meaningless in science and in debate.

So let's leave any unverifiable, personal and emotional outbursts out of this debate. My observation can be done by anyone willing to do it.

not about religions and what they believe.

It is ALL about your religion and what you believe.

So if someone goes out and looks up into the heavens, .. oops, .. I meant space, and says to himself; Wow, that's big, and I feel so small! I wonder if that's finite or infinite?
I'm here, and I see stars, so it cannot be Infinite, .." so this would be considered religious meditation, or worship?

I have observed over the years that religion has so dominated science, even the invention of the Big bang was from a very religious Priest, that even the most educated can no longer distinguish between the two. This is why I am here responding to YOUR OP my friend.

I made this observation in the here and now, as a scientist would,

You convey a very strange idea of what a scientist would do. Scientists tend to demand verification of information upon which conclusions are based – and testing of their ideas and conclusions.

I agree my friend, I am strange and I never once denied this since I've been here. I honestly don't know, maybe it's the way I was raised, also what I have gone through in my life, but this should not be held against me. Maybe my approach is not so kosher, I know, even a Trigonometry Professor told me that, but I was right. CNC Programmers, best engineers in their field would get mad at me for changing and correcting programs that they spent coinless hours, even days to figure out on computers but couldn't, yet I seemed so positive that it would be right!?
It drove them crazy, and some even got mad and ordered Management to ban me from touching another 5-axis machine program. A few days later, since we were extremely behind production they ran my corrected program, and it solved all the problems. I was given full authority to correct and change anything that I felt needed correction. Within days, I improved production 300%, another words a titanium impeller that took 3 shifts to machine, now only took one.

I see this same thing happening with you my friend, but if you knew me in person, or if you personally knew more about me, maybe I wouldn't be so detestable to you.

I know what science is, my God is the greatest scientist there is. And I have been sharing this critical piece of info on a Forum that reaches the entire world, also personally with anyone that would give me an ear. Does it look like I'm selfish about this? Do you have anything more than just general personal opinion about what I say?

Can you show me where I am wrong? Show me where or what I said is not science instead of just rambling on that this is not science?

I asked you many times to set some ground rules, but it seems you are afraid to step outside your little circle. Look, I'm sorry, .. but just read your posts to me and honestly tell me that this is not something personal against me?

Look, this is who I am, and this is what you get. I can't go back in my mothers womb and be born again, I can't start over, get more education where you could tolerate me more.

I have presented proof, anyone can debate it, so debate. What did you expect, something like Gödel's Ontological Argument? That's math, mine is simple science anyone can observe for themselves. You want to debate what Tillich said, I believe someone already started that too!?

[FarWanderer]

Here is what Far Wonderer said: "Do you dislike the idea that humans evolved from non-human apes?"

I corrected him that according to the Evolution story, humans didn't evolve from non-human apes, .. you ARE still an evolving animal, an ape,

I said we evolved from apes that were not human. That doesn't mean that we aren't apes.

specifically a chimp.

Definitely not a chimp. Specifically a human. Humans are apes, but we are not chimps. We might have a lot in common with chimps, being as we're both apes, but we are not the same thing.

I have a question: Do you also have a problem being classified as a mammal?

Again, may I ask you this, in your evolution theory: Has one specie, over millions or even billions of years ever evolve into a completely different specie where one can no longer reproduce with the other?

Again? There was a first time?

Yeah, of course that has happened. Although, far more interesting is when one species splits into two or more.

Hitler 'classified' my ancestry on my mothers side as 'rats', so classifications can be very religious and hateful in nature, like taxonomy is.

Does this mean that you think calling someone a mammal is hateful?

I agree that classifications can be hateful. I disagree that taxonomy is hateful. There is nothing in taxonomy that says you or anyone you have ever known is somehow less than human. Humans are apes, mammals, animals, and yet still uniquely human.

But, personally, even being "human" isn't important to me, because I am who I am.

[Divine Insight]

Please debate what I said here. If your opinion is different of who God is or may be, you may start your own OP and present your idea or belief in your god/gods and we can debate that there. Here, let's debate what I claimed here, and point out why you believe if I am wrong.

I take a shot at this:

Someone has suggested we were created by a finite quantum speck of whatever which 13.7 billion years ago resided in who knows what, and without any reason or plan it somehow big-banged creating the universe and us humans? But this whatever, that resided in who knows what is still of the created like me, and infected by entropy/time. it would of died a long, .. long time ago, entropied itself to death. So nope, that's out of the question.

Actually this is incorrect physics. There is no entropy in the quantum realm. So there is no reason why it would have "entropied itself to death" long ago. So this scenario is not out of the question and may actually be the truth of reality yet.

YES! Yes, my mind passed the scientific test, it IS infinite. But wait, I still don't remember creating the universe or myself!? I am still OF the created then. There has to be a Creator like my mind, but who or what?

Well, there you go. If you claim that there are things still yet to be known that your mind doesn't know than you have just proven that your mind is not infinite. So you have failed the test of having an infinite mind. Sorry if I'm the first one to break this bad news to you.

"Who am I?" is created, and "I Am Who I Am" must be the Creator. It is the only logical acceptable scientific answer; The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".

He is all knowing since he created everything that was created, or that we are a part of, He has all the power like my mind that can create many universes with no great effort at all, He IS, or Eternal so no need to look who created Him since all we need is One Eternal and Infinite, and everything else is the created within Him.

Actually what you have described here is the Eastern mystical view of God, not the Biblical view. Let's not forget that the biblical God is separate from us entirely and can supposedly cast us into a state of eternal damnation of everlasting punishment. So in Christianity we must necessarily be something quite distinct and separate from God. Otherwise God would constantly be damning itself.

So apparently you just have the wrong religion. You need to move over to something like Taoism or Buddhism. Those are far more in harmony with the view of God you are describing here.

[arian]

Your OP here is only on the scientific evidence of God,

Correction: YOU claimed to have undeniable and scientific evidence of the creator. Do you forget?

I present undeniable and scientific evidence of THE Creator.

The OP asks that you present that evidence.

Here again, and again, and again;
[center]God

The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".[/center]

Observing the world around me, I look at myself and ask who am I? I am a complex awesome self contained biological unit with self awareness where I can ask; "Who Am I?"

I look in the mirror and I can see my parents in me, and so could they see their parents in them. Infinite regress tells me that there has to be someone uncreated that created man, that is us humans. So there has to be a Creator. But whoever He is, he would have to be infinite and eternal, He cannot have a creator or be of the finite.

So what in this universe is infinite and eternal?

So I look at big things for signs of infinity. Hmm, the universe looks big, but now they tell me that even space is filled with quantum stuff, so even space is created like me, not only that, space reveals entropy or time, so it is not even eternal. There goes space as being infinite and eternal, let alone reason, plan and design. And time which they tell me can evolve things, actually shows that it only destroys things. I know, it is killing me, it killed my parents and billions of other people. Time is NOT a creator, but a destroyer, so that's out. So since the universe is made of finite created stuff, and it ages with time, it cannot be the Creator.

I was running out of the possibility of finding an Eternal, Infinite Creative being that could have planned, designed and created everything in this universe, except Himself/Itself.

So where can I find something Infinite, Eternal that even time couldn't kill, that can plan, reason, create even something as complex as me, but not be of the created as I am?

Someone has suggested we were created by a finite quantum speck of whatever which 13.7 billion years ago resided in who knows what, and without any reason or plan it somehow big-banged creating the universe and us humans? But this whatever, that resided in who knows what is still of the created like me, and infected by entropy/time. it would of died a long, .. long time ago, entropied itself to death. So nope, that's out of the question.

So back again I went to and fro, who or what could have created me and this universe? I heard many other explanation from a supposedly very wise fellow human who seen humans as apes, and apes as some other creatures, all the way back billions of years where he seen man as a tiny single celled bacterium. That maybe this bacterium created me simply by just laying around wasting time!?! But this too is of the created, an unreasonable finite speck at that, from the same source as me. Nope, not this either.

As I was thinking, I read about the Blue brain project and how man is creating a new human 2.0, starting with the brain.
But here too we fall into that infinite regress, man creating man, and the brain is subject to entropy and aging. If they transfer everything from the brain on a CD disk, the disk ages, and the program itself is subject to corruption. The Matrix it may be loaded into is also subject to corruption, and the computer it is residing in needs energy to keep it alive.
So nope, that's out also.

But this triggered something, and it was not my brain. I realized that this light went off in my mind, before I even stored any of it in my brain.

AHA! I said, the mind may be it. So as any good new scientist I tested my mind to see if it is finite, or infinite, and by George I could put earth, our solar system, our galaxy, then I tried to put the entire universe inside my mind, and not only could I put the entire universe in there, I could put as many universes as I wanted to in there.

YES! Yes, my mind passed the scientific test, it IS infinite. But wait, I still don't remember creating the universe or myself!? I am still OF the created then. There has to be a Creator like my mind, but who or what?

The what was out since the Creator Mind has to be self sufficient, and be able to reason, plan design AND create. It has to be a He, the dominant one like man. It started to make sense, God must be an Eternal Infinite, Creative Mind that is alive. What would this someone refer to Himself as, I asked? I was, .. I will be, .. and of course, I Am since He is Eternal and Infinite. I Am knows He is, and wouldn't conflict with His creation like myself who asks "Who am I?"

"Who am I?" is created, and "I Am Who I Am" must be the Creator. It is the only logical acceptable scientific answer; The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".

He is all knowing since he created everything that was created, or that we are a part of, He has all the power like my mind that can create many universes with no great effort at all, He IS, or Eternal so no need to look who created Him since all we need is One Eternal and Infinite, and everything else is the created within Him.

unless you want me to jump right into 'supporting evidence' from literature?

You claimed to have scientific evidence. Let's see it.

[center]God

The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".[/center]

Observing the world around me, I look at myself and ask who am I? I am a complex awesome self contained biological unit with self awareness where I can ask; "Who Am I?"

I look in the mirror and I can see my parents in me, and so could they see their parents in them. Infinite regress tells me that there has to be someone uncreated that created man, that is us humans. So there has to be a Creator. But whoever He is, he would have to be infinite and eternal, He cannot have a creator or be of the finite.

So what in this universe is infinite and eternal?

So I look at big things for signs of infinity. Hmm, the universe looks big, but now they tell me that even space is filled with quantum stuff, so even space is created like me, not only that, space reveals entropy or time, so it is not even eternal. There goes space as being infinite and eternal, let alone reason, plan and design. And time which they tell me can evolve things, actually shows that it only destroys things. I know, it is killing me, it killed my parents and billions of other people. Time is NOT a creator, but a destroyer, so that's out. So since the universe is made of finite created stuff, and it ages with time, it cannot be the Creator.

I was running out of the possibility of finding an Eternal, Infinite Creative being that could have planned, designed and created everything in this universe, except Himself/Itself.

So where can I find something Infinite, Eternal that even time couldn't kill, that can plan, reason, create even something as complex as me, but not be of the created as I am?

Someone has suggested we were created by a finite quantum speck of whatever which 13.7 billion years ago resided in who knows what, and without any reason or plan it somehow big-banged creating the universe and us humans? But this whatever, that resided in who knows what is still of the created like me, and infected by entropy/time. it would of died a long, .. long time ago, entropied itself to death. So nope, that's out of the question.

So back again I went to and fro, who or what could have created me and this universe? I heard many other explanation from a supposedly very wise fellow human who seen humans as apes, and apes as some other creatures, all the way back billions of years where he seen man as a tiny single celled bacterium. That maybe this bacterium created me simply by just laying around wasting time!?! But this too is of the created, an unreasonable finite speck at that, from the same source as me. Nope, not this either.

As I was thinking, I read about the Blue brain project and how man is creating a new human 2.0, starting with the brain.
But here too we fall into that infinite regress, man creating man, and the brain is subject to entropy and aging. If they transfer everything from the brain on a CD disk, the disk ages, and the program itself is subject to corruption. The Matrix it may be loaded into is also subject to corruption, and the computer it is residing in needs energy to keep it alive.
So nope, that's out also.

But this triggered something, and it was not my brain. I realized that this light went off in my mind, before I even stored any of it in my brain.

AHA! I said, the mind may be it. So as any good new scientist I tested my mind to see if it is finite, or infinite, and by George I could put earth, our solar system, our galaxy, then I tried to put the entire universe inside my mind, and not only could I put the entire universe in there, I could put as many universes as I wanted to in there.

YES! Yes, my mind passed the scientific test, it IS infinite. But wait, I still don't remember creating the universe or myself!? I am still OF the created then. There has to be a Creator like my mind, but who or what?

The what was out since the Creator Mind has to be self sufficient, and be able to reason, plan design AND create. It has to be a He, the dominant one like man. It started to make sense, God must be an Eternal Infinite, Creative Mind that is alive. What would this someone refer to Himself as, I asked? I was, .. I will be, .. and of course, I Am since He is Eternal and Infinite. I Am knows He is, and wouldn't conflict with His creation like myself who asks "Who am I?"

"Who am I?" is created, and "I Am Who I Am" must be the Creator. It is the only logical acceptable scientific answer; The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".

He is all knowing since he created everything that was created, or that we are a part of, He has all the power like my mind that can create many universes with no great effort at all, He IS, or Eternal so no need to look who created Him since all we need is One Eternal and Infinite, and everything else is the created within Him.

But if I mention the Bible, your instinct will just say; "No, you can't do that, .. I consider that religion, it's religion not science!"

You have no idea what my "instinct will say".

Do you wish to present the bible as "scientific evidence?"

No, I'm not going down your rabbit hole. Lets stick to science.

and since you refuse to set some ground rules,

The Forum sets ground rules – such as "substantiate claims" and "opinion is not substantiation." Are those Forum Rules objectionable to you?

I have given the evidence, now please pick any part you want me to substantiate further. Here, let me give you some clues which I see you have mentioned before that you have problems with;

Infinity vs. finite
Eternity vs. time
Mind/spirit vs. brain

Religion as it is distorted to mean god/gods and worship of god/gods vs. what I said that the definition of the word; religion, has absolutely nothing to do with god/gods, Mother Marry, Zeus, Odin, Jesus, Allah and the tens of thousands of other gods created by people who dedicate their entire life (religious actions) in defending, promoting them. Religious is something people are, like I said playing tennis religiously. Religion doesn't mean god/gods or the worship thereof. They can become religious in worshiping god/gods, but religion does not automatically mean god/gods and the worship thereof.

Pick one or tell me your own.

Tell me, do you consider the Blue Brain Project science? How about quantum theory? How about the millennia of debates on 'nothing'?

I will keep the Bible out of it. I will stick with my end of the deal and not allow you to pull me into your rabbit hole.

Feel free to start presenting the undeniable evidence of the creator that you claimed to possess.

Gladly!

[center]God

The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".[/center]

Observing the world around me, I look at myself and ask who am I? I am a complex awesome self contained biological unit with self awareness where I can ask; "Who Am I?"

I look in the mirror and I can see my parents in me, and so could they see their parents in them. Infinite regress tells me that there has to be someone uncreated that created man, that is us humans. So there has to be a Creator. But whoever He is, he would have to be infinite and eternal, He cannot have a creator or be of the finite.

So what in this universe is infinite and eternal?

So I look at big things for signs of infinity. Hmm, the universe looks big, but now they tell me that even space is filled with quantum stuff, so even space is created like me, not only that, space reveals entropy or time, so it is not even eternal. There goes space as being infinite and eternal, let alone reason, plan and design. And time which they tell me can evolve things, actually shows that it only destroys things. I know, it is killing me, it killed my parents and billions of other people. Time is NOT a creator, but a destroyer, so that's out. So since the universe is made of finite created stuff, and it ages with time, it cannot be the Creator.

I was running out of the possibility of finding an Eternal, Infinite Creative being that could have planned, designed and created everything in this universe, except Himself/Itself.

So where can I find something Infinite, Eternal that even time couldn't kill, that can plan, reason, create even something as complex as me, but not be of the created as I am?

Someone has suggested we were created by a finite quantum speck of whatever which 13.7 billion years ago resided in who knows what, and without any reason or plan it somehow big-banged creating the universe and us humans? But this whatever, that resided in who knows what is still of the created like me, and infected by entropy/time. it would of died a long, .. long time ago, entropied itself to death. So nope, that's out of the question.

So back again I went to and fro, who or what could have created me and this universe? I heard many other explanation from a supposedly very wise fellow human who seen humans as apes, and apes as some other creatures, all the way back billions of years where he seen man as a tiny single celled bacterium. That maybe this bacterium created me simply by just laying around wasting time!?! But this too is of the created, an unreasonable finite speck at that, from the same source as me. Nope, not this either.

As I was thinking, I read about the Blue brain project and how man is creating a new human 2.0, starting with the brain.
But here too we fall into that infinite regress, man creating man, and the brain is subject to entropy and aging. If they transfer everything from the brain on a CD disk, the disk ages, and the program itself is subject to corruption. The Matrix it may be loaded into is also subject to corruption, and the computer it is residing in needs energy to keep it alive.
So nope, that's out also.

But this triggered something, and it was not my brain. I realized that this light went off in my mind, before I even stored any of it in my brain.

AHA! I said, the mind may be it. So as any good new scientist I tested my mind to see if it is finite, or infinite, and by George I could put earth, our solar system, our galaxy, then I tried to put the entire universe inside my mind, and not only could I put the entire universe in there, I could put as many universes as I wanted to in there.

YES! Yes, my mind passed the scientific test, it IS infinite. But wait, I still don't remember creating the universe or myself!? I am still OF the created then. There has to be a Creator like my mind, but who or what?

The what was out since the Creator Mind has to be self sufficient, and be able to reason, plan design AND create. It has to be a He, the dominant one like man. It started to make sense, God must be an Eternal Infinite, Creative Mind that is alive. What would this someone refer to Himself as, I asked? I was, .. I will be, .. and of course, I Am since He is Eternal and Infinite. I Am knows He is, and wouldn't conflict with His creation like myself who asks "Who am I?"

"Who am I?" is created, and "I Am Who I Am" must be the Creator. It is the only logical acceptable scientific answer; The Infinite, Eternal, Creative Mind who Is and lives, who can be best described as "I Am Who I Am".

He is all knowing since he created everything that was created, or that we are a part of, He has all the power like my mind that can create many universes with no great effort at all, He IS, or Eternal so no need to look who created Him since all we need is One Eternal and Infinite, and everything else is the created within Him.

Thank you, though, for a religionist perspective and thinking on these matters.

See what I mean, rabbit hole?

That is no rabbit hole. It is sincere appreciation for you (generic term) who make claims of knowledge that cannot / is not shown to be anything more than opinion, conjecture, folklore, fantasy, fiction, imagination, and/or fraud.

And all you have to do, .. all I'm asking you to do is prove it. Prove to our readers that my scientific observable and verifiable claim of Creator, as One Infinite Eternal Creative Mind in whose image you and I have been created is anything more than opinion, conjecture, folklore, fantasy, fiction, imagination, and/or fraud

I am getting flashbacks of all the time Professors, Engineers, Programmers, and especially other General Machinists (it may not sound like a big title, but don't underestimate them because some are real geniuses) told me off like this, and ended up eating every word. Well I don't wish to make you eat every wrongful accusation you made to me, I ask only one humble thing from you, either prove these things I claim is wrong, or admit our Creator is a scientific reality?

Presenting unverifiable claims and incredible tales reduces a person's credibility and the credibility of the cause they champion.

I agree 101% Only I will prove that this is true with my next OP in the Science & Religion Sub forum;

"Big-bang Evolution, scientific theory or Religious dogma?"