Why no straight answers?

[Zzyzx]

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After eight years debating here I have YET to encounter a defender of fundamentalism / literalism / traditionalism (or the Bible in general) who will openly, accurately, honestly answer fundamental questions about Christian beliefs " including the following (with truthful answers in bold font)

What verifiable evidence exists (beyond Bible tales and claims, opinions, testimonials and speculation) to substantiate that:

Jesus was anything more than human? None

Humans possess a soul? None

An afterlife exists? None

Miracles described in Bible tales actually occurred? None

Any of the claimed events such as floods, earthquakes, darkening sky, star stopping, Earth ceasing rotation, etc occurred as described? None

God intercedes in human affairs or life events? None

Bible writers were actually inspired by God? None



Why no answers? Could it be refusal to admit that in the absence of verifiable information, accepting the basic beliefs of Christianity must be based on "Take my (or his) word for it" and that doing so is not a rational basis for making decisions on matters of importance?

[Danmark]

Many people have claimed to have seen Heaven upon dying for a brief time, why are they similar experiences?

I do not pretend to explain testimonials by those who claim to have supernatural experiences. However, do many Muslims or Buddhists claim to see Jesus?

There may be similarities, but it's the differences that are the key issues. If you look at even just the Christian claims of visits to Heaven, there are always things that contradict each other. One can only come to the conclusion, surely, that they are seeing what they think they should be seeing. What they have been taught to see as evidenced by the fact that Muslims see Mohammed rather than Jesus and that every religions seems to see their version of God.

When you consider that there are many NDEs where the dying person has met fictional creatures and characters... ie mythological creatures, characters from video games and comics etc, you really have to start asking yourself, just how much of this is being conjured up by the sub conscious?

Yes. NDE's are no more mysterious than dreams.

Every lawyer I've discussed dreams with, along with everyone else I've talked to who has an advanced degree agrees they have had the same dream and it is recurring. Tho' there are various versions of it, it generally goes like:

You are back in high school or college. You have missed class. You've missed class a lot. You are hopelessly behind on assignments. You get to school and can't even find where your classes are being held. Big tests are coming up. It is near the end of your Senior year. There is no way you can be prepared for the exams. No matter what you do, you cannot graduate.

People have described this dream as so real that even upon waking they are anxious. It takes a few minutes of thought to shake themselves free of the dream. They tell themselves they MUST have graduated because here they are, a doctor or a lawyer, so they must have graduated high school. Minutes later they laugh at themselves because they remember they not only graduated, they graduated with honors.

I've asked people who did not graduate or get advanced degrees and they report never having had this dream. It's obvious what is going on. Those who successfully accomplished their academic mission did so in part because they WERE anxious about being prepared and going to class.

Dreams and NDE's are frequently inspired by our fears and our desires. Despite how intriguing dreams are, in many ways there is no mystery about them. There is no mystery about where memories of "supernatural experiences" come from. And it is no surprise that our culture and our real life experiences are important in the construction of these dreams, visions, and personal "talks" with God.

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 90 by Zzyzx]

Instead I regard them as unverifiable writings by unidentifiable people decades or generations after the events and conversations they purport to relay in detail as though writers had direct personal knowledge and had witnessed said events (none of which can be shown to be true).

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail ... nt-page-1/

In Archaeology Confirms 50 Real People in the Bible in the March/April 2014 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, Purdue University scholar Lawrence Mykytiuk lists 50 figures from the Hebrew Bible who have been confirmed archaeologically. The 50-person chart in BAR includes Israelite kings and Mesopotamian monarchs as well as lesser-known figures.
Mykytiuk writes that at least 50 people mentioned in the Bible have been identified in the archaeological record. Their names appear in inscriptions written during the period described by the Bible and in most instances during or quite close to the lifetime of the person identified. The extensive Biblical and archaeological documentation supporting the BAR study is published here in a web-exclusive collection of endnotes detailing the Biblical references and inscriptions referring to each of the 50 figures.

[Hamsaka]

[Replying to post 85 by Danmark]

Is the evidence of the Bible really so weak that one must resort to saying NOTHING can be proved?

I'm pretty sure the bible exist , should you mean proof that miracles happened then you are barking up the wrong tree, that is the message form 1213.

Why would you ask for proof from a faith based religion ? Where is the true weakness here ? The Christian faith creates some of the strongest, most resilient people here on earth , hands down. They do not pick up the bible looking for "proof" of God . They realize him and his message through the words in the bible. Should they pick up the bible looking for proof , they would surely never gain the strength that it is meant to give a Human, here on earth .

The only reason I quest for this knowledge(the ways of our origins ) is curiosity , never proof of God . The asking for proof of Jesus , or his miracles is a fruitless adventure. The message Christians receive from these events in the bible is far more important than realizing them in a literal fashion , this is not a necessity , denial is not a necessity either. We all have different perceptions of situations. I do not believe God holds us to account on how we believe Jonah lived in a whale. The story of Jonah was foretelling , it was prophecy fulfilled , according to the bible. One does not have to deny it either. Should I sit back and tell myself , "no way , this is crazy " , then the message is lost.

Missing the message here , if you thought this way reading the bible, would make you weaker , surely not stronger , if you are trying to het closer to the God you suppose.

This is a well done argument. Of course asking for "proof" from Faith based religious claims ain't gonna happen, there isn't any by its very nature. As time marches on the trend has been toward rationality (the developed world), and this trend has pushed religion into its own special little corner, where it feels forced to demand the respect it used to have before the 19th century's scientific explosion. What Christianity used to corner the market on has been replaced gradually with knowledge obtained empirically rather than via revelation.

It's not hard to see why creationists work the appearance of science into their claims; religious revelation cannot compete with empirical science. If you can't compete, all's that's left is to attempt to discredit what can't be competed against.

There's not much else we rely upon that is not founded on scientific discovery (often in conflict with religious claims). Not too many Christians would be alive and well enough to try and discredit science if it weren't for the medical and lifestyle improvements brought to them by science. All the feverish persistence and machinations of creationism (for instance) demands a response from rationality, the age we live in. Naturally, because it works this way in every other aspect of modern life, "What is your proof what you say is true?"

Things lacking said "proof" in every other realm of human life are dismissed.

[Zzyzx]

.

Why would you ask for proof from a faith based religion ?

I would ask for proof / verifiable evidence to support stated claims of knowledge. When people claim that their favorite God flooded the Earth "to the tops of mountains", I ask for evidence rather than just taking their word that such thing actually happened.

Where is the true weakness here ?

In reasoned debate, positions / claims / statements that cannot be supported are regarded as weak.

The Christian faith creates some of the strongest, most resilient people here on earth , hands down.

That is a claim of knowledge that could be challenged if it was significant in any way. However, it is rendered meaningless by "some of the" and by the fact that nearly any other sizable group can make identical claim. Thus, Christians have no patent on being strong and resilient.

They do not pick up the bible looking for "proof" of God .

Agreed. Most Christians I encounter (here or in real life) do not seem to be concerned about proof of God. They assume that God exists as a presupposition and basis for their belief system.

They realize him and his message through the words in the bible.

Many regard the Bible as "the word of God", ignoring that it is an anthology of writings by unidentifiable writers, selected by churchmen, supported by Roman emperors, edited and revised many times by various people, transcribed by hand as copies of copies of copies, that no original documents survive, etc, etc.

Should they pick up the bible looking for proof , they would surely never gain the strength that it is meant to give a Human, here on earth .

Does the claimed strength come magically or supernaturally to believers?

The only reason I quest for this knowledge(the ways of our origins ) is curiosity , never proof of God . The asking for proof of Jesus , or his miracles is a fruitless adventure.

Agreed. Therefore, it is dishonorable to claim to know that Jesus performed "miracles" or came back to life after being executed.

The message Christians receive from these events in the bible is far more important than realizing them in a literal fashion , this is not a necessity ,

Many people claim to receive messages (or lessons) from fictional tales " religious or not.

denial is not a necessity either. We all have different perceptions of situations. I do not believe God holds us to account on how we believe Jonah lived in a whale. The story of Jonah was foretelling , it was prophecy fulfilled , according to the bible. One does not have to deny it either. Should I sit back and tell myself , "no way , this is crazy " , then the message is lost.

What, exactly, is the "message" in the Jonah tale? How is the message "lost" if one understands that living in the belly of a fish / whale for days is not in keeping with what is now know of the real world?

[Faithful One]

[Replying to post 94 by Zzyzx]

I would ask for proof / verifiable evidence to support stated claims of knowledge. When people claim that their favorite God flooded the Earth "to the tops of mountains", I ask for evidence rather than just taking their word that such thing actually happened.

I have explained to you earlier that proof would make faith moot. Not complicated. Christians have the right to make claims , should a Christians claims be your main motivation to challenge them , you should already know what your result will be, no matter who you challenge.

That is a claim of knowledge that could be challenged if it was significant in any way. However, it is rendered meaningless by "some of the" and by the fact that nearly any other sizable group can make identical claim. Thus, Christians have no patent on being strong and resilient.

What religion do you think are the ones who go into the deepest darkest jungles are , to bring ones antibiotics , and needs to keep them healthy and a live .

How many atheists are traipsing through the jungle to do this ? Not many. There are many Christian aid groups in the ME, many have lost their lives . How many " atheist aid groups " are in the ME ? I'm guessing zero. These missionaries and aid groups most of the time can not even proselytize, without risking jail or death . They go right into the jaws of danger to help , knowing they can nit spread the word . You will find no other religion as prevalent as Christians as far as helping the needy.

The fortitude of Christianity saves millions of lives yearly. Using the word weak and Christianity, is surely an oxymoron.

They seem to have it locked up in the most dangerous parts of the world . Show me any other religion or secular group that even comes close to helping the world .

Does the claimed strength come magically or supernaturally to believers

The strength comes from their faith.


http://www.npr.org/templates/story/stor ... =129155780

"Our faith motivates and inspires us " but we do not proselytize," IAM's executive director, Dirk Frans, said in a statement shortly after the attack. He discounted the Taliban claim, telling reporters Thursday that he believes it was an "opportunistic ambush" by Pakistan-based militants.

Christian groups are often viewed with suspicion in Muslim nations, and some say they face a level of violence and intimidation that has made it difficult to carry out humanitarian missions.

[H.sapiens]

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PN, Thanks for the reasoned and civil reply.

[Replying to Zzyzx]
It could be that none of those questions are answered on here, because the evidence that is pointed to God, some give other credit to its origins. An example is creation. Creation points the evidence to God, but some give credit to (name your choice).

Does existence of the universe "point to God" for astrophysicists (people who actually study such things)? Does the existence of life forms "point to God" for biologists (people who actually study such things)?

Of course those things "point to God" for those who are already committed to believe supernatural origins " including theologians who study theology, not astrophysics and biology.

Everyday / in-the-pew Christians are often absolutely convinced that they KNOW how the universe and life forms originated (without actually studying such things beyond the level of television, sermons, testimonials, and ancient writings).

Many of us acknowledge that we do not have answers to such questions " and are not willing to chose one of the hypotheses offered. "I don't know" works for me. I do not NEED to know such things in order to live a successful, rewarding, fulfilling life " so why become concerned or emotional when people push their pet theories (hypotheses)?

God, does and is constantly working in my life, but some just say, "Hey, you would be the same person without Him." Knowing my life before Him, I know this is not true.

When a Christian friend in real life made that statement, my response was "You must have been a basket case before because you're no paragon of virtue now."

Of course, I would not make that response to anyone in debate (honoring decorum and Forum Rules). However, if someone says that Christians are much improved by "finding Jesus" AND Christians cannot be shown to be any less likely to be incarcerated, divorced or have abortions (for example) than other groups, that does not say much for what those Christians really are / were before becoming Christians.

Maybe it is best that such people found SOME way to improve themselves. Going to prison (or to college) can also result in people "turning their life around."

On the other hand, many people are fine, upstanding, benevolent citizens / people without any influence from "gods" or religions or prisons or college. Were they just "better" people to start with?

The following is an interesting article on Jesus. Most people did not read or write back then. The leaders of the Jewish church didn't much care for Jesus Why would they document something that threatened the church as they knew it?http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient ... an-sources.

That link produced a 404 error for me. However, many non-religious people acknowledge that a wandering preacher named Jesus (or something comparable) lived 2000 years ago. So what?

If you remove the period at the end it works: http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient ... an-sources

But there's nothing there you haven't seen before: Tacitus (hardly a contemporary source or even a quotation of an original source), Pliny the Younger (considered a Christian forgery, but not definitive even if believable), Josephus (another clear forgery, also far from definitive even if believable), the Babylonian Talmud (wrong Jesus, it does not support any of the gospel accounts of Jesus' arrest, trial or execution) and Lucian of Samosata (an early-day Mark Twain who says nothing of Jesus, but rather ridicules Christians of the Second Century, no one denies that such Christians existed).

There is no assurance that if he lived he was anything more than a human preacher. All the supernatural claims are contained in religion promotional literature written by anonymous people decades or generations after he is said to have died. None of the writers can be shown to have had actual, personal knowledge of Jesus or to have witnessed any of his words or works.

I don't have time to look up more sources, but these questions really intrigue me. If Christianity was so far fetched, what accounts for historically billions of followers?

Salesmanship and promotion by Paul/Saul, gospel writers, and others " enforcement by Roman emperors as official state religion of the empire " domination as a theocracy in Europe during the Dark and Middle Ages " spread worldwide by force during the colonial / expansionist era " evangelism and proselytization since.

Many people have claimed to have seen Heaven upon dying for a brief time, why are they similar experiences?

I do not pretend to explain testimonials by those who claim to have supernatural experiences. However, do many Muslims or Buddhists claim to see Jesus?

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 90 by Zzyzx]

Instead I regard them as unverifiable writings by unidentifiable people decades or generations after the events and conversations they purport to relay in detail as though writers had direct personal knowledge and had witnessed said events (none of which can be shown to be true).

http://www.biblicalarchaeology.org/dail ... nt-page-1/

In Archaeology Confirms 50 Real People in the Bible in the March/April 2014 issue of Biblical Archaeology Review, Purdue University scholar Lawrence Mykytiuk lists 50 figures from the Hebrew Bible who have been confirmed archaeologically. The 50-person chart in BAR includes Israelite kings and Mesopotamian monarchs as well as lesser-known figures.
Mykytiuk writes that at least 50 people mentioned in the Bible have been identified in the archaeological record. Their names appear in inscriptions written during the period described by the Bible and in most instances during or quite close to the lifetime of the person identified. The extensive Biblical and archaeological documentation supporting the BAR study is published here in a web-exclusive collection of endnotes detailing the Biblical references and inscriptions referring to each of the 50 figures.

I can do much better than 50 figures using the Bernard Cornwell's "Sharpe's Rifles" series ... does that make them true?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 87 by OnceConvinced]

When you consider that there are many NDEs where the dying person has met fictional creatures and characters... ie mythological creatures, characters from video games and comics etc, you really have to start asking yourself, just how much of this is being conjured up by the sub conscious?

Yes, you could be experiencing, or imagining only your own previous experiences. I believe the common one is the tunnel and the light , this has been perceived many times.

Yeah, that seems to be one thing that these hallucinations often have in common. In fact it's so ingrained in us from movies and television, it's no wonder they do. It's like the whole aliens are little white men with big bug eyes thing.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to post 87 by OnceConvinced]

When you consider that there are many NDEs where the dying person has met fictional creatures and characters... ie mythological creatures, characters from video games and comics etc, you really have to start asking yourself, just how much of this is being conjured up by the sub conscious?

Yes, you could be experiencing, or imagining only your own previous experiences. I believe the common one is the tunnel and the light , this has been perceived many times.

Yeah, that seems to be one thing that these hallucinations often have in common. In fact it's so ingrained in us from movies and television, it's no wonder they do. It's like the whole aliens are little white men with big bug eyes thing.

Or that's just what you see when your blood pressure drops, PPO2 goes way done and brain cells start to die.

[H.sapiens]

[Replying to Zzyzx]

Mr. Z!!!

It could be that none of those questions are answered on here, because the evidence that is pointed to God, some give other credit to its origins. An example is creation. Creation points the evidence to God,

Really? Care to provide some support for such a sweeping claim? I think you're wrong as wrong can be.

but some give credit to (name your choice). God, does and is constantly working in my life, but some just say, "Hey, you would be the same person without Him." Knowing my life before Him, I know this is not true.

You KNOW? Gaining knowledge requires more than anecdotal guesses based on feelings, which (I suspect) is all that you've got to support that claim.

The following is an interesting article on Jesus. Most people did not read or write back then. The leaders of the Jewish church didn't much care for Jesus Why would they document something that threatened the church as they knew it?http://www.bethinking.org/jesus/ancient ... an-sources .

I don't have time to look up more sources, but these questions really intrigue me. If Christianity was so far fetched, what accounts for historically billions of followers? Many people have claimed to have seen Heaven upon dying for a brief time, why are they similar experiences?

You can say the same for Osiris, Zeus, Mithras, Buddha, Mohammed, Zoroaster, Pele, Vishnu, Kwaku Ananse, Odin, Anu and a thousand others with respect to whom you stand proud as an atheist. I just carry it one measly deity further than you do.