What happened to Paul on the road to Damascus?

[Wootah]

Acts 9 English Standard Version (ESV)
The Conversion of Saul
9 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest 2 and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. 4 And falling to the ground, he heard a voice saying to him, Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me? 5 And he said, Who are you, Lord? And he said, I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. 6 But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do. 7 The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. 8 Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. 9 And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

What happened to Paul on the road to Damascus?

[Zzyzx]

.

Any person that is willing to believe the claims of Paul, should believe the claims made by Joseph Smith and his companions as those claims have actual companion witnesses and don't involve reanimated bodies. Yet most don't and that seems logically inconsistent.

Exactly.

Two tenths of one percent of the world's population are LDS (and one tenth of one percent are JW). Both groups seem to BELIEVE their favorite tales and think that they know TRUTH and everyone else is wrong.

The tell their stories to those willing to (or coerced to) listen. Mainline Christians have been proselytizing (often by force) a lot longer but are presently losing ground except in backward / 'developing' areas of the world where education, information, and scientific knowledge are in short supply).

What a great coincidence and great luck to be born into a family / social group that is so knowledgeable -- and to be 'heaven bound'.

[Yahwehismywitness]

I think it is very telling that the Apostles were afraid of him and believed not he was a disciple. Acts 9:26

They did not believe him so why should anybody?
Second point disciple was used see they too did not believe he was Apostle so why should anybody believe?

[Tcg]

I think it is very telling that the Apostles were afraid of him and believed not he was a disciple. Acts 9:26

They did not believe him so why should anybody?

As can be seen from the verses following 26, that fear and doubt was resolved very quickly:

• Acts 9:27 But Barnabas took him and brought him to the apostles and declared to them how on the road he had seen the Lord, who spoke to him, and how at Damascus he had preached boldly in the name of Jesus. 28 So he went in and out among them at Jerusalem, preaching boldly in the name of the Lord.

Whether or not they should have, according to the story, they did believe his tale.


Tcg

[Tired of the Nonsense]

[Replying to post 80 by Goose]

Where are you getting this idea they left Paul at the mercy of a Christian man (Im presuming you mean Ananias)? The text explicitly says Ananias went and entered the house where Paul was (Acts 9:17). Paul is also recorded as saying that Ananias was a devout man according to the law and had a good reputation among the Jews in Damascus (Acts 22:12).

If you were a German, and good friends with an Nazi SS officer whose job was rooting out and rounding up Jewish people to send to the concentration camps, would you allow a Jewish person to get anywhere near your friend the Nazi SS officer while he was in a state of complete helplessness? The fact that Ananias was able to enter into the house where Paul lay and put his hands on him indicates that Paul's "companions" had left him and moved on. At that point in Paul's life close friends who knew Paul well would never have allowed Ananias the Christian man to get anywhere near Paul if they could have helped it.

Ive not argued Pauls belief alone is sufficient.

After recovering from his near death experience, and while being cared for and prayed over by a Christian man, Paul genuinely believed that he had met with and conversed with Jesus, who had been executed some years earlier. This belief changed Paul's life and caused him to become a dedicated Christian.

In 1997 an individual named Marshall (Do) Applewhite convinced a group of 38 other dedicated individuals, known as as the Heaven's Gate movement, to believe that by committing suicide they would be able to interface with a spaceship trailing behind comet Hale-Bopp and thus achieve a place in highest heaven. This belief changed the life of all 39.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven%27 ... ous_group)

Sure they did. They told Paul. And Paul told the author of Acts.

Provide the testimony of ANY of Paul's Damascus traveling companions.

Prove Paul was sick and delusional and close to death. Physically incapacitated, in the sense he couldnt see, I will grant.

Acts 9:
[9] And he was three days without sight, and neither did eat nor drink.

Rule of Threes - Survival

Written by Administrator
US Army Survival Manual

In any extreme situation you cannot survive for more than:

3 minutes without air - 3 hours without shelter
3 days without water - 3 weeks without food.
http://www.ruleof3survival.com/ INFORMATION
***

The Great Outdoors beta
Questions

For those who aren't familiar with the rule, it's that you can't live more than:

3 minutes without breathing (drowning, asphyxiation)
3 hours without shelter in an extreme environment (exposure)
3 days without water (dehydration)
3 weeks without food (starvation)
http://outdoors.stackexchange.com/quest ... en-for-foo...

Wikipedia
Survival skills
A lack of water causes dehydration, which may result in lethargy, headaches, dizziness, confusion, and eventually death. Even mild dehydration reduces endurance and impairs concentration, which is dangerous in a survival situation where clear thinking is essential.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Survival_skills

by Mayo Clinic Staff
Severe dehydration, a medical emergency, can cause:

Extreme thirst
Extreme fussiness or sleepiness in infants and children; irritability and confusion in adults
Very dry mouth, skin and mucous membranes
Lack of sweating
Little or no urination " any urine that is produced will be dark yellow or amber
Sunken eyes
Shriveled and dry skin that lacks elasticity and doesn't "bounce back" when pinched into a fold
In infants, sunken fontanels " the soft spots on the top of a baby's head
Low blood pressure
Rapid heartbeat
Rapid breathing
No tears when crying
Fever
In the most serious cases, delirium or unconsciousness.
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dehydr ... N=symptoms

Knocking down a strawman here. Paul wasnt having a face to face with a man who was dead.

Sick and delirious from the effects of dehydration, Paul was convinced after his recovery that he had met with and spoken to a man that had been executed some years earlier. That is the definition of delusional.

Oh yeah? Then how do you know 2+2=4? How do you know that there are at least three widgets if there are four? How do you know A and ~A is a contradiction? How do you know you love your mother?

The point is, there are limits to what can be observed to be true. This is referred to as "knowledge." The limits of our "knowledge" are constantly expanding. But genuine knowledge is still limited to empirical observation. And then there are the things which can be imagined. Empirical observation plays no role in that which can be imagined. That which can only be imagined to be true is what I refer to as "make believe." Make believe, the set of things which can only be imagined, is essentially limitless.

The laws of physics derived from physical empirical observation represent the highest state of confidence that we have attained in understanding the universe we live in. The laws of physics are derived from much observation and experimentation resulting in achieving exactly the same result repeatedly and without fail. The application of these laws have led to working computers, smart phone and all of the other technology that is the hallmark of our modern technology. If the laws of physics are NOT inviolate as we now believe them to be, we are in the embarrassing position of having no idea why our technology works at all!

Ancient people on the other hand, as well as CERTAIN people today, worked on a different theory of how the universe works. Since they did not yet possess enough technology to acquire the information required, and were ignorant of the explanation for the naturally occurring natural phenomenon going on around them, lightning, thunder, earthquakes and the like, they made up answers. They presupposed solutions for which they otherwise had no means to answer. This was the "make it up and declare it to be true" method of attaining "knowledge." It causes people to imagine that they can attain heaven by committing suicide in an effort to interface with a spaceship trailing a comet.

And that sort of thing.

Regrettably, there are still many people living today who vigilantly maintain such ignorance. Many, apparently, entirely by choice.

You think numbers, math, and logic are make believe?

I think such things as flying reindeer and flying reanimated corpses make up the infinite set of those things which can be imagined to be true, but which violate all experience, observation, and the laws of physics.

It doesn't rule these things out. [abiogenesis, the multiverse, etc.] remain possibilities until such time, if ever, as they can be shown to be physically substantiatable in detail.

It certainly does if an explanation must be known to exist in reality to serve as a possible explanation for anything. To argue otherwise is Special Pleading.

I have not (yet) argued for things such as abiogenesis and the multiverse. To do so, I am afraid, would vastly overstep the premise of the question posed by this subject.

Can the case be made that killing babies is moral if you become convinced (someone says) that God has ordered it?

Nope.

Good for you! Neither can I make such a case. But then, I don't consider the Bible to be the unassailable Word of God, either.

Numbers 31

[15] And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive?
[16] Behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the counsel of Balaam, to commit trespass against the LORD in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the LORD.
[17] Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.
[18] But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Joshua 6

[20] So the people shouted when the priests blew with the trumpets: and it came to pass, when the people heard the sound of the trumpet, and the people shouted with a great shout, that the wall fell down flat, so that the people went up into the city, every man straight before him, and they took the city.
[21] And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.


Joshua 11:

19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Ezekiel 9
And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
[5] And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
[6] Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
[7] And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.

Samuel 1 15:

[2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Do you therefore deny the accuracy of the Bible? Do you deny that the Bible represents the Word of God?

[Red Wolf]

Paul bragged about his role.
2Corinthians 12:16
""But be that as it may, I did not burden you myself; nevertheless, crafty fellow that I am, I took you in by deceit.""

Was Paul willing to LIE to convince you?
Romans 3:7
But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner?

[Zzyzx]

.

Sick and delirious from the effects of dehydration, Paul was convinced after his recovery that he had met with and spoken to a man that had been executed some years earlier. That is the definition of delusional.

Is believing the tale equally delusional?

Some seem to base major life decisions on the tale being true.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

.

Sick and delirious from the effects of dehydration, Paul was convinced after his recovery that he had met with and spoken to a man that had been executed some years earlier. That is the definition of delusional.

Is believing the tale equally delusional?

Some seem to base major life decisions on the tale being true.

In 1917,the first of two photographs of "fairys" were taken by two English girls, Elsie Wright (1901"1988) and Frances Griffiths (1907"1986). The photographs came to the attention of writer Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, a noted spiritualist and believer in the existence of the supernatural. Doyle was himself Irish-catholic. In 1920 Doyle included two of Elsie Wright's pictures of fairies in an article he wrote for "The Strand" magazine.


Ref: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cottingley_Fairies

The article became a sensation, and subsequent photos of supposed fairies and gnomes were sold for thousands of pounds to an eagerly gullible public. One pound was the equivalent of $2,462.55 in 1920.
https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GG ... CAs&uact=5.

In 1921 Doyle wrote a follow up article for "The Strand" which included further supposed pictures of fairies, which Doyle believed actually existed.

In the 1980's both Elsie Wright and Frances Griffiths admitted that the "fairies" in their photographs were actually cardboard cutouts.

So who is the more delusional, the one making the preposterous claim, or the ones believing the preposterous claim? That of course depends. But it remains true that a fool is a fool is a fool, I am afraid.

[Zzyzx]

.

In the 1980's both Elsie Wright and Frances Griffiths admitted that the "fairies" in their photographs were actually cardboard cutouts.

So who is the more delusional, the one making the preposterous claim, or the ones believing the preposterous claim? That of course depends. But it remains true that a fool is a fool is a fool, I am afraid.

This demonstrates that some of what is presented as truth is actually fraud, and believing the fraud is delusion.

'Spiritual' beliefs are not immune.

[Tired of the Nonsense]

.

In the 1980's both Elsie Wright and Frances Griffiths admitted that the "fairies" in their photographs were actually cardboard cutouts.

So who is the more delusional, the one making the preposterous claim, or the ones believing the preposterous claim? That of course depends. But it remains true that a fool is a fool is a fool, I am afraid.

This demonstrates that some of what is presented as truth is actually fraud, and believing the fraud is delusion.

'Spiritual' beliefs are not immune.

Cindy Jacobs, co-founder of Generals International and a self-described faith healer who can turn metal into bone, make a grown woman grow taller, and control the weather, has a new way to stop the spread of coronavirus.

She just declared it illegal.
https://friendlyatheist.patheos.com/202 ... bMR0DGbUeQ

On a side note:

As the fears of the coronavirus continue to spread, a beer with a now-unfortunate name is feeling the effects of the outbreaks.

Corona is taking a public relations hit because of fears over the names similarity to the deadly virus.

A recent survey of American beer drinkers found that 38% of those asked will not buy Corona beer and 16% are confused if Corona beer is related to the coronavirus, USA Today reported.
https://www.kiro7.com/news/trending/cor ... M7K55MRUE/



"A fool is a fool is a fool, I am afraid." -- Tired of the Nonsense

[Goose]

We have two distinct types of historical claims here. One claim is about what Paul "believed" happened on the road to Damascus and the other is about what "historically" happened on the road to Damascus. Because the historical evidence we have is Paul's written testimony, there is a low but non-zero chance that Paul fabricated the entire account of his Damascus road experience. So, we can accept the historical evidence is reliable enough to establish what Paul probably "believed" happened but not what historically occurred because we only have his subjective testimony.

Youre missing the point here. The evidence is strong enough to establish that Paul believed he had an encounter with the risen Lord and if it is, its also strong enough to establish Pauls companions experienced something at the same time.

Furthermore, it is my understanding that Paul's written testimony does not mention anything about what his companions may have experienced.

Pauls testimony is recorded in Acts.

And those who were with me saw the light, to be sure, but did not understand the voice of the One who was speaking to me. " Paul, as recorded in Acts 22:9

Those details are described in the book of Acts which was not written by Paul or a companion who was with Paul at the time of his experience on the Damascus road.

Not written by a companion of Paul on the road to Damascus, but written by a companion of Paul.

We can't even be certain that the author of Acts was relaying second-hand information.

Well we cant be certain of anything from ancient history. So if your standard here is that we must be certain youll be in the absurd position of saying nothing from ancient history is historical. We can be as certain the author of Acts was relaying Pauls testimony as we can be about any ancient author who records the testimony of someone they claimed or implied to have known.

Therefore, the historical evidence is not sufficiently reliable to conclude anything about what Paul's alleged companions either believed or what historically happened to them.

If evidence from a source who had direct contact with the subject being recorded is not sufficient to say what happened historically then there is very little about ancient history we can say is historical since so much of it comes to us from even further removed sources. Youll be hard pressed, for example, to say anything about the life of Julius Caesar is historical with that kind of unreasonable methodology.

As previously indicated, I'm not aware of Paul mentioning what his companions may have experienced.

See above.

As for the expectation that the embellisher would have claimed the companions also directly witnessed the risen Christ, such a claim would have invited unwanted inquiry into the identities of those individuals why they weren't equally motivated to endorse Christianity.

That doesnt follow. We already have evidence that the Gospel writers werent shy from recording that even some who witnessed the risen Jesus doubted (Matthew 28:17). If the author of Acts was embellishing by adding the detail of the companions theres no reason to think he wouldnt have had Pauls companions witness the risen Lord along with Paul even if they did not go on to endorse Christianity.

No, we have Paul's testimony recorded in the epistles. We cannot determine if the report in Acts is even second-hand information.

Sure we can. Acts suggests the author was a companion of Paul.

After these days we got ready and started on our way up to Jerusalem. Some of the disciples from Caesarea also came with us, taking us to Mnason of Cyprus, a disciple of long standing with whom we were to lodge. After we arrived in Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly. And the following day Paul went in with us to James, and all the elders were present. After he had greeted them, he began to relate one by one the things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry. " Acts 21:15-19

It is relevant if we are attempting to establish what historically happened. Sure, it would be interesting to learn what the companions believed about the experience but that doesn't establish what historically took place.

All that is being establish historically at this point is that Pauls companions experienced something. The historical evidence supporting this point is, by comparison to other history, quite strong.

It is not my burden of proof to demonstrate the supernatural is possible or impossible because I'm not claiming it is either.

But you do seem to be claiming that an explanation requires an implicit empirical basis in order to qualify as a possible explanation. Thats what Im asking you to prove.

If you are claiming the supernatural is possible, the burden is on you to prove it.

Ive already proven it as a logical possibility. Thus it is possible.

I will come back to the second part of the post later.