The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

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The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #1

Post by boatsnguitars »

Christian clergy and apologists claim that "All the Apostles died instead of recanting their belief in the Resurrection."

Josh McDowell ("More Than A Carpenter, Evidence Demands a Verdict") says,
Even though they were crucified, stoned, stabbed, dragged, skinned and burned, every last apostle of Jesus proclaimed his resurrection until his dying breath, refusing to recant under pressure from the authorities. Therefore, their testimony is trustworthy and the resurrection is true.
Josh McDowell.

This is a demonstrable lie.

Sean McDowell, son of Josh McDowell, says:
If you have followed popular–level arguments for the resurrection (or ever heard a sermon on the apostles), you’ve likely heard this argument. Growing up I heard it regularly and found it quite convincing. After all, why would the apostles of Jesus have died for their faith if it weren’t true?

Yet the question was always in the back of my mind — how do we really know they died as martyrs?
(Note, he was told that lie by his father.)

The claim that all of Jesus' disciples were killed for their unwavering belief in the resurrection is a popular and often-repeated narrative. However, this claim is not entirely accurate and is based on a limited understanding of the available historical evidence.

Firstly, it is important to note that the historical record of the disciples' deaths is sparse and often unreliable. Many of the accounts of the disciples' deaths were written years or even centuries after the events they describe, and some of them contain obvious embellishments and inaccuracies.

Furthermore, there is significant debate among historians about the veracity of these accounts. Some historians argue that the disciples' deaths are well-documented and reliable, while others argue that the available evidence is too thin and contradictory to draw any definitive conclusions.

Even assuming that the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, it is not clear that they were all killed specifically because of their belief in the resurrection. Many of the disciples lived and died in relative obscurity, and there is little or no historical record of how or why they died.

For example, we know almost nothing about the deaths of most of the disciples, including James the Less, Thaddaeus, and Simon the Zealot. The accounts of the deaths of Peter and Paul are somewhat more reliable, but they provide no evidence that these disciples were specifically targeted for their belief in the resurrection.

Moreover, it is worth noting that many religious figures throughout history have been persecuted and even killed for their beliefs. The fact that the disciples were killed for their beliefs does not necessarily make those beliefs true, nor does it provide any evidence for the resurrection itself.

In conclusion, while it is certainly possible that some or all of the disciples were killed for their beliefs, it is far from clear that this is the case. Furthermore, even if the accounts of the disciples' deaths are accurate, they do not provide any evidence for the resurrection itself. Therefore, the claim that the disciples were all killed for their belief in the resurrection is a problematic and oversimplified narrative that should be approached with caution.

1. To what extent do the deaths of the apostles prove the veracity of the resurrection story?
2. Can we trust the accounts of the apostles' deaths as historically accurate, or are they subject to bias and myth-making?
3. Is it possible for someone to be so convinced of a belief that they are willing to die for it, even if the belief is not true?
4. How do we reconcile the apostles' willingness to die for their belief in the resurrection with similar accounts of martyrs in other religions?
5. Do contemporary Christians have a responsibility to question the historical accuracy of their religious texts and teachings, or is faith sufficient?
6. If the clergy is lying so easily about this, what are we to believe about their other claims?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #91

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 3:07 pm it's not being answered in the way you want it to.
Then the answer is 'no' for these (3) afflictions, no matter how many people ask, or how many times it is asked of others.
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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #92

Post by The Tanager »

POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pma) If the claim is that a postmortem prayer answering Jesus exists, this can be falsified -- (minus the Christian apologetics which will be sure to come here, as expected).
This isn’t the claim we are discussing. We are discussing your claim that unanswered prayer shows a postmortem prayer answering Jesus doesn’t exist. If your response to this is “see, I knew it and said it would come” then all that shows is that you aren’t interested in truth, trying to give yourself an out instead of supporting your claim. Hopefully, you will take a more rational route.
POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pmb) Of course not. We only have the reports we have Even though there exists countless reports of "answered prayer" formally and informally... And yet, where the amputees, Cerebral Palsy, and DM1 are concerned, not-so-much. BTW, my uncle has Cerebral Palsy. I possess an amputation. And my best friend's daughter has DM1. We have countless requested prayer, via petitionary and intercessory prayer alike, to no avail... Let me guess...? You are not going to pray for us for a cure? Or maybe such afflictions are for our own good? Or maybe all amputees, and all people with CP, and all people with DM1, need to have/keep these afflictions? God's response is no? God isn't really in the healing business which means millions are mistaken about saying they are being healed or God does heal millions -- (which, if actually true, possibly makes your prior statement completely incorrect).
I will gladly pray for healing, but that and nothing you say here is support for why God should heal all such afflictions that people want. That doesn’t mean I don’t want healing for you if it would be for your good and the good of others. People of these 3 types aren’t less human because of these afflictions. I’m not downplaying what they have to go through, but I don’t think a good God should be more concerned with giving us perfect comfort over having a community where we can truly love each other and care for each other, even in the midst of sharing each other’s pains.
POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pmc) No they are not impossible. Amputees , people born with CP, and people with DM1, CAN demonstrate a cure to their afflictions. So why is God skipping us, or any of these (3) afflictions entirely? The simplest answer would still be the same, which requires no "spin". No such postmortem prayer answering Jesus exists.
That is a possible answer, but it doesn’t outweigh by itself all the reasons to believe a postmortem Jesus exists. Your case for Jesus not existing postmortem has to include more than this, because this isn’t strong enough evidence that Jesus doesn’t exist.
POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pmIF a postmortem prayer answering Jesus exists, some of these requests would be fulfilled.
That’s a claim. Give rational support. So far it’s just that you would want that to be the case.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #93

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:27 am
POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pma) If the claim is that a postmortem prayer answering Jesus exists, this can be falsified -- (minus the Christian apologetics which will be sure to come here, as expected).
This isn’t the claim we are discussing. We are discussing your claim that unanswered prayer shows a postmortem prayer answering Jesus doesn’t exist. If your response to this is “see, I knew it and said it would come” then all that shows is that you aren’t interested in truth, trying to give yourself an out instead of supporting your claim. Hopefully, you will take a more rational route.
POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pmb) Of course not. We only have the reports we have Even though there exists countless reports of "answered prayer" formally and informally... And yet, where the amputees, Cerebral Palsy, and DM1 are concerned, not-so-much. BTW, my uncle has Cerebral Palsy. I possess an amputation. And my best friend's daughter has DM1. We have countless requested prayer, via petitionary and intercessory prayer alike, to no avail... Let me guess...? You are not going to pray for us for a cure? Or maybe such afflictions are for our own good? Or maybe all amputees, and all people with CP, and all people with DM1, need to have/keep these afflictions? God's response is no? God isn't really in the healing business which means millions are mistaken about saying they are being healed or God does heal millions -- (which, if actually true, possibly makes your prior statement completely incorrect).
I will gladly pray for healing, but that and nothing you say here is support for why God should heal all such afflictions that people want. That doesn’t mean I don’t want healing for you if it would be for your good and the good of others. People of these 3 types aren’t less human because of these afflictions. I’m not downplaying what they have to go through, but I don’t think a good God should be more concerned with giving us perfect comfort over having a community where we can truly love each other and care for each other, even in the midst of sharing each other’s pains.
POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pmc) No they are not impossible. Amputees , people born with CP, and people with DM1, CAN demonstrate a cure to their afflictions. So why is God skipping us, or any of these (3) afflictions entirely? The simplest answer would still be the same, which requires no "spin". No such postmortem prayer answering Jesus exists.
That is a possible answer, but it doesn’t outweigh by itself all the reasons to believe a postmortem Jesus exists. Your case for Jesus not existing postmortem has to include more than this, because this isn’t strong enough evidence that Jesus doesn’t exist.
POI wrote: Thu Sep 14, 2023 4:47 pmIF a postmortem prayer answering Jesus exists, some of these requests would be fulfilled.
That’s a claim. Give rational support. So far it’s just that you would want that to be the case.
It's a claim on a claim.

How about you provide evidence for the initial claim?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #94

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:30 pmIt's a claim on a claim.

How about you provide evidence for the initial claim?
Which initial claim? One that I made here?

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #95

Post by boatsnguitars »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:49 pm
boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 1:30 pmIt's a claim on a claim.

How about you provide evidence for the initial claim?
Which initial claim? One that I made here?
How about all preceding claims that yours is based on?
“And do you think that unto such as you
A maggot-minded, starved, fanatic crew
God gave a secret, and denied it me?
Well, well—what matters it? Believe that, too!”
― Omar Khayyâm

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #96

Post by The Tanager »

boatsnguitars wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 2:01 pmHow about all preceding claims that yours is based on?
My claim here has been that the "apostles' lied" theory is not a good one. Which preceding claims are you saying I need to support?

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #97

Post by POI »

The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:27 am We are discussing your claim that unanswered prayer shows a postmortem prayer answering Jesus doesn’t exist.
If a postmortem prayer answering Jesus exists, then we should find prayers (of all) answered at roughly the same rate and percentage. But here lies the coincidence... "Answered prayer" is claimed for afflictions in which do not require Jesus's help, where instead human intervention and/or natural processes alone can do the trick. "Answered prayer" is not granted for afflictions which would require Jesus's help, where human intervention and/or natural process alone cannot do the trick. Below are only some examples of afflictions in which Jesus never "answers", which would require his direct intervention for a cure:

amyotrophic lateral sclerosis
cerebral palsy
dementia
diabetes mellites 1
amputation
muscular dystrophy
hunington's disease
epilepsy
parkinson's disease
paget's disease
motor neuron disease

And the list goes on....

Though we have countless claims to "answered" petitionary and/or intercessory prayer, no one is probably actually dumb enough to REALLY pray for a real-time cure to the above afflictions. Why? Well, pick your favorite Christian apologetic answer. I've read yours ;)

If a postmortem prayer answering Jesus existed, he would not always skip prayer requests of the afflictions which would require his direct intervention, because we humans are incapable of doing it ourselves. You would see some cured afflictions (from both the ones humans can achieve on their own, as well as some of the ones listed above).

Of the two, what's more likely?

a) a postmortem prayer answering Jesus does not really exist
b) "I don’t think a good God should be more concerned with giving us perfect comfort over having a community where we can truly love each other and care for each other, even in the midst of sharing each other’s pains."
The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:27 am I will gladly pray for healing,
You are a smart guy. Why would you pray for (3) afflictions in which you already know are not going to be cured?
The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:27 am People of these 3 types aren’t less human because of these afflictions.
Neither are the countless ones in which are claimed to be healed By Jesus. It's just a huge coincidence that the ones Jesus decides to heal are curable by either human intervention and/or natural processes.
The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:27 am That is a possible answer,
Well, I'd say that 'a postmortem prayer answering Jesus does not exist', is also the most sensible answer.
The Tanager wrote: Fri Sep 15, 2023 10:27 am but it doesn’t outweigh by itself all the reasons to believe a postmortem Jesus exists. Your case for Jesus not existing postmortem has to include more than this, because this isn’t strong enough evidence that Jesus doesn’t exist.
The title in my claim makes it strong enough. (i.e.) a postmortem prayer answering Jesus. Again, if the claim for answered prayer coincidentally only happens with diseases/situations/events in which human intervention and/or natural processes alone can also resolve, without the necessity for Jesus's divine powers, then the coincidence is too high to still include Jesus as the answer.
Last edited by POI on Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
In case anyone is wondering... The avatar quote states the following:

"I asked God for a bike, but I know God doesn't work that way. So I stole a bike and asked for forgiveness."

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #98

Post by TRANSPONDER »

I don't think 'the apostles lied' is even the argument. It is a ...I was going to say 'strawman' and maybe it is. I just twitted one strawman where some event not happening is best explained as not believed to happen until it does and NOT as a claim that it cannot possibly happen.

Here the claim actually is - I suppose - that there is no good reason to believe that the disciples were preaching the claim that they saw Jesus' solid body walking about on the Sunday. Sure, they were preaching a resurrection of some kind, if we credit Paul (and I do) so the claim is not that they had to be claiming something they knew was a lie even in the face of persecution.

It is a convenient escape from an impossible and untenable position ;) but it does have some evidence - I Cor is not like the Gospel resurrection account. It does appear to be related to Paul's vision which is surely not Jesus having a fish supper Sunday night. Finally, Mark having no such appearances and the ones the writers produce all contradict in a way that would have courthouse witnesses thrown into the street are reasons to doubt that the disciples were claiming any of that at all, persecution or not.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #99

Post by The Tanager »

[Replying to POI in post #97]

There is nothing new in your post for me to respond to. Thanks for sharing your thoughts and reading mine.

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Re: The "Apostles Died For the Rez" Lie.

Post #100

Post by The Tanager »

TRANSPONDER wrote: Sat Sep 16, 2023 1:25 amI don't think 'the apostles lied' is even the argument. It is a ...I was going to say 'strawman' and maybe it is.
I never claimed anyone here was arguing that. The reason some Christians have said the apostles’ death matters is that it would show they didn’t lie about the resurrection. That is the claim being critiqued by this thread. I have agreed that we can’t reasonably say they all died for their message. But we can reasonably say that they were persecuted for their message and this still gets the same end: they didn’t lie about the resurrection.

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