Why do you believe in God?

[McCulloch]

The arguments for believing that there is a God can be categorized as follows:

1. Four Classical Arguments
2. The Argument from First Cause
   1. Everything must have a cause
   2. Causal Chains cannot go on forever
   3. Therefore there must be a first cause, and that is God.
3. The Argument from Design
   1. Something in the universe or the universe itself seems to be designed
   2. Therefore a designer must exist and that is God
4. The Argument from the Anthropic Principle
   1. The universal constants are fine tuned for the existence of humans.
   2. Therefore there must have been a God to fine tune the universe for our existence
5. The Ontological Argument
   1. God is a being than which nothing greater can be conceived.
   2. Assume that God does not exist.
   3. An existent God is a being greater than a non-existent one
   4. If God did not exist, then we could conceive of a being greater than God -- A God that exists.
   5. This is a contradiction, therefore (2) must be false and God exists
   Courtesy of Saint Anselm.

1. Four Subjective Arguments
2. The Argument from Coincidence
   1. There have been some remarkable coincidences.
   2. There must be a reason for those coincidences.
   3. That reason is God.
3. The Argument from Prophecy
   1. A holy book makes prophesies.
   2. A holy book or the adherents of it report that those prophesies have come true.
   3. Therefore whatever else is in the book, such as the claim that God exists must be true.
4. The Argument from Subjectivity and Faith
   1. People feel sure that God exists.
   2. Therefore God exists.
5. The Argument from Divine Interventions, Miracles and such
   1. A miracle occurs, perhaps as a response to prayer.
   2. God exists as evidenced by the divine intervention

1. Four Psycho-Mathematical Arguments
2. The Argument from Redefinition
   1. God is Love or Goodness or some other such thing.
   2. Love, goodness or whatever, clearly exists.
   3. Therefore God exists.
3. The Argument from Cognitive Tendency
   1. Some cognitive tendencies suggest the existence of an all-powerful agent.
   2. God must be that all-powerful agent
4. The Universality Argument and Morality
   1. Across cultures, the similarities in moral values are quite apparent.
   2. They must come from God
5. The Gambling Argument
   1. We can choose to believe or not in God.
   2. If we choose wrongly then negative consequences of choosing to disbelieve are greater than the negative consequences of choosing to believe.
   3. Therefore it is prudent to believe.

The classifications and much of the synopses are from John Allen Paulos, Professor of Mathematics at Temple University, in his book Irreligion, A Mathematician Explains Why the Arguments for God Just Don't Add Up As fallacious as these might seem, these seriously are the arguments put forth by philosophers, theologians, saints, apologists and preachers.

These are the arguments for God. There are numerous subtle variations on them, but essentially, as far as I can tell those who claim that God exists do so based on one or more of these arguments and nothing else.

Why should I believe that there is a God? What are your reasons? Are any of these reasons valid? If your reasons do not fall into any of the above groupings, please let us know why you believe. If you believe for a combination of these reasons, select the strongest one and explain why.

[OnceConvinced]

So you would rather he made a decision one way or another and become closed minded to any other possibilities?

I know you are easily taken in by his "complements", but others have more personal esteem. Present another possibility IF you can.

I am not taken in by anyone. I am quite capable of thinking for myself, which is one of the reasons I am no longer a Christian. What makes you think I'm easily taken in by "complements"? I very rarely ever recieve them!

I also question your integrity if you try to claim Zzyzx is trying to "Take anyone in". I think you have taken a disliking to him because he regularly makes you look foolish.

What do you mean present another possibility if you can? What exactly is wrong with admitting you don't have all the answers and sitting on the fence if there is no good argument to go one way or the other?

I personally think Religion in general is a nice safe place.

I do too

So why then should Zzyzx be criticised for being in a comfortable place? Why should going one way or the other make him any better off? Would you be more comfortable if he just declared himself an atheist?

[twobitsmedia]

I also question your integrity if you try to claim Zzyzx is trying to "Take anyone in". I think you have taken a disliking to him because he regularly makes you look foolish.

Good luck with that. I dont dislike him but only in his own mind, is a such a debating legend. I am glad you admire ZZ...shows your true colors..

[twobitsmedia]

So why then should Zzyzx be criticised for being in a comfortable place? Why should going one way or the other make him any better off? Would you be more comfortable if he just declared himself an atheist?

The day he declares anything and then does not undeclare at the same time will be a minor miracle. Enjoy sitting on the fence....

[McCulloch]

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[olavisjo]

You are right, he is not quite like my real friends, he is more dependable. When random actions happen far more than probability would allow, they are no longer random.

I guess your the sort of person who does not trust people. You're the sort of person who would say "If you want something done right, do it yourself"?

If I want something done right I will turn it over to God. And definitely not trust myself.

So in other words you'll do it yourself but give credit to God.

It seems to me you may also be the sort of person who doesn't give yourself enough credit for your own strengths.

I had a very strong faith as a Christian. Whether you want to believe that or not it's true. I did not play at being a Christian, I lived it. I believed without a doubt I had a relationship with God.

It seems my point has washed completely over your head. No I was not trying to be humorous. One of the skills of debate is to be able to look at other people's point of view and argue from their perspective. If God exists and I was never a true Christian, then he allowed me to be fooled for 30+ years. So how can you be so sure he's not doing the same for you?

There may be some logic there, but it is a bit twisted. You almost sound like you believe that there is a God but you just don't want any part of him. If you want to talk about how God let you down, I would welcome a PM.
As for me, if God exists, I am his to do with as he wills, if it humors him to 'fool' me then so be it.

Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.

I never saw God as that and if he is like that, then he doesn't strike me as a God worthy of worship.

I tend to automatically look at things from a Christian perspective, because it's a habit I haven't broken. Sometimes those perspectives can get a little mixed up as I'm writing and probably leaves me open to misinterpretation. When I first deconverted I classed myself as a Deist, but since then I've come to the conclusion there is not even enough evidence of God to support even that stance. So now I call myself agnostic.

If you want to, feel free to check out these threads where I talk about my deconversion and my life as a Christian:

Member spotlight
What made you give up?
Was I a true Christian?

You are not the first to turn away from Christianity, even Jesus, as personable as he was, had many people who turned away.

65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

66 From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.

67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away?

68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life.

69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

70 Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

When you left Jesus to whom did you go? And don't tell me to your self, because the self is the worst master you can have. Did you go to scientific naturalism and its natural selection and survival of the fittest philosophy? Who do you now serve?
I read that you were more disappointed in the church and other Christians than God.
I tell you the truth...

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

There will be many false teachers in the world.

1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.

3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.

Jesus said that there will be a falling away...

8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

And so did Paul...

3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

And not many will find the right road.

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You said that God had done nothing for you in the last ten years of your Christian life. Did you have the need for anything in those years? I have found that if there is something that I can do myself, God will not even lift a finger to help me, he only helps me when I have reached the end of my rope and can no longer do anymore by myself.
So now is the time for young men like yourself to say to God "I don't see your Kingdom in this world, so let it begin with me, even if all these other people have gone astray I will be faithful to you, even if you are silent".
Christianity is a great adventure if you follow Christ and a disaster if you follow other men. However I must warn you that if you follow Jesus, there will be a cross in your future, but you will not be crucified alone, your true brothers and sisters in Christ will be hanging with you.

This is a good chapter to read Luke 15.

[McCulloch]

When you left Jesus to whom did you go? And don't tell me to your self, because the self is the worst master you can have. Did you go to scientific naturalism and its natural selection and survival of the fittest philosophy? Who do you now serve?

What are you trying to say? "I believe in God because I must serve someone and God is the best candidate, in my opinion."

I read that you were more disappointed in the church and other Christians than God.

Are you trying to say: "I believe in God because the reason to disbelieve is that the professed believers in God are hypocrites and that is insufficient reason to disbelieve."

Christianity is a great adventure if you follow Christ and a disaster if you follow other men.

Are you trying to say: "I believe in God because Christianity is a great adventure" or "I believe in God because I know that following anyone else leads to disaster."

However I must warn you that if you follow Jesus, there will be a cross in your future, but you will not be crucified alone, your true brothers and sisters in Christ will be hanging with you.

Sounds to me like you are claiming that following Jesus will lead to disaster, a cross which is a metaphor for some unspecified disaster up to and including being killed for your faith, and that following anyone else will lead to disaster, unspecified. So Christianity is better than those other paths because you will have company?

[JoeyKnothead]

olavisjo wrote:

When you left Jesus to whom did you go? And don't tell me to your self, because the self is the worst master you can have.

How? What facts do you have to support this assertion?

I tell you the truth...(and goes on to quote various Bible passages)

What is the 'truth' here? Is the 'truth' simply that these passages are indeed in the Bible? Then you are correct, otherwise your 'truth' is only as you interpret it. An interpretation is not necessarily the truth.

[bernee51]

The Bible does not make sense to you, but why does it make so much sense to so many others? Are you missing something or do they so desperately want to believe that, they have deluded themselves into thinking there is something there that is just not there.

Yes - they are deluding themselves. They see something that brings meaning and purpose to their lives and hold onto it for that reason. Just as others use the Koran or the Bhagavad Gita.

You have a problem with meaning and purpose?

Not at all. However, I have no need for god or religion to provide it.

So, I can understand your frustration with the Bible and I used to be just like you before I deluded myself into believing it.

Realising it is a delusion is the first step. Even though delusory it can still bring meaning and purpose.

The value in understanding its nature as delusion leads to understanding and acceptance of other's delusions.

Have you ever known anyone who was free of all delusions? If a person knows their belief is a delusion, how can they continue to believe it?

Because even while known to be delusory it can provide meaning and purpose. Have you ever read Spong?

There are at least two possibilities, [strike]either[/strike] God is not visible, or you are blind.

And this is a false dilemma.

There, no longer a false dilemma.

Still a false dilemma. As I am not blind and god is not visible, god does not exist.

To me God is visible in the things that he does for me and others, and he is visible in the natural world around me. God is more than a comfort to me, he is a real presence just like your real friends.

I am happy that you find such comfort in your belief...that is its purpose.

Yes, God made it to be like that.

In a manner you are correct in that.

[Jerada Davidhefter]

I believe the number one cause for all of this superstitious nonsense is the fact that all humanity is so defensive over their purpose. By evolution and necessity, we have developed a pre-frontal cortex. Evolution did not fully develop said apparatus, and thus we cannot go through life without falsely encouraging ourselves with immovable faith, that, conveniently, is immune to falsification. Just because something is unable to be falsified, does not make it true. The matter is, said religious beliefs have no factual support, and are void of any rationale, one way or another.

[olavisjo]

I believe the number one cause for all of this superstitious nonsense is the fact that all humanity is so defensive over their purpose. By evolution and necessity, we have developed a pre-frontal cortex. Evolution did not fully develop said apparatus, and thus we cannot go through life without falsely encouraging ourselves with immovable faith, that, conveniently, is immune to falsification. Just because something is unable to be falsified, does not make it true. The matter is, said religious beliefs have no factual support, and are void of any rationale, one way or another.

The matter is, any world view beliefs have no factual support, and are void of any rationale, one way or another. So we are left lost and groping in the dark. If you disagree, give us a world view that can be supported by the facts.