No Proof the Bible is untrue.

[JoeyKnothead]

From one of the threads...

Not one human has ever proved anything in the Bible to be untrue. The truth remains in spite of all attacks against it. On the other side of the coin, the words of the Bible apply perfectly to all mankind, while opposing the perversions of unbelieving minds.

I'm gonna pass over the whole 'perversions of unbelieving minds'. I'm just gonna trust this writer had nothing but love in his heart when he said it.

I will though, say the ToE pretty much put the kibosh on the whole creation thing. Eh?

[muhammad rasullah]

proof the bible is untrue...
2 chronicles 21:5 Jehoram [was] thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
2 chronicles 21:20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.

So Jehoram was 32 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and he ruled eight years and died when he was 40 years old.
But the bible says his son Ahaziah was forty two years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem.
2Chronicles 22:1 And the inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned.
2Ch 22:2 Forty and two years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

How can Ahaziah be older than his own father when he began to reign after his father died? This makes no sense! This can't be from God!

Well, that shows that people made mistakes in copying over the centuries.

Now, of course, the same can be said of the Koran.

Well the same cannot be said about the quran. that statement cannot be proven. I've just shown that the bible contradicts itself so the burden of proof is no longer on me. In order to prove that this was a mistake in copying you have to prove that there is no contradiction in the original. So please do so I would love to see.

[Cathar1950]

proof the bible is untrue...
2 chronicles 21:5 Jehoram [was] thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
2 chronicles 21:20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.

So Jehoram was 32 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and he ruled eight years and died when he was 40 years old.
But the bible says his son Ahaziah was forty two years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem.
2Chronicles 22:1 And the inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned.
2Ch 22:2 Forty and two years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

How can Ahaziah be older than his own father when he began to reign after his father died? This makes no sense! This can't be from God!

Well, that shows that people made mistakes in copying over the centuries.

Now, of course, the same can be said of the Koran.

Well the same cannot be said about the quran. that statement cannot be proven. I've just shown that the bible contradicts itself so the burden of proof is no longer on me. In order to prove that this was a mistake in copying you have to prove that there is no contradiction in the original. So please do so I would love to see.

There are no originals to be contradicted.
Your claim is meaningless.

[muhammad rasullah]

proof the bible is untrue...
2 chronicles 21:5 Jehoram [was] thirty and two years old when he began to reign, and he reigned eight years in Jerusalem.
2 chronicles 21:20 Thirty and two years old was he when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem eight years, and departed without being desired. Howbeit they buried him in the city of David, but not in the sepulchres of the kings.

So Jehoram was 32 years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem and he ruled eight years and died when he was 40 years old.
But the bible says his son Ahaziah was forty two years old when he began to reign in Jerusalem.
2Chronicles 22:1 And the inhabitants of Jerusalem made Ahaziah his youngest son king in his stead: for the band of men that came with the Arabians to the camp had slain all the eldest. So Ahaziah the son of Jehoram king of Judah reigned.
2Ch 22:2 Forty and two years old [was] Ahaziah when he began to reign, and he reigned one year in Jerusalem. His mother's name also [was] Athaliah the daughter of Omri.

How can Ahaziah be older than his own father when he began to reign after his father died? This makes no sense! This can't be from God!

Well, that shows that people made mistakes in copying over the centuries.

Now, of course, the same can be said of the Koran.

Well the same cannot be said about the quran. that statement cannot be proven. I've just shown that the bible contradicts itself so the burden of proof is no longer on me. In order to prove that this was a mistake in copying you have to prove that there is no contradiction in the original. So please do so I would love to see.

There are no originals to be contradicted.
Your claim is meaningless.

To you the claim may be meaningless because you dont believe the bible to be true. But to someone who does then my claim is not meaningless so if you dont believe in the bible then this post doesn't apply to you obviously!

[JoeyKnothead]

Muhammad Rasullah:

I accept your proof the Bible is untrue, that I can deal with.

Here's where I get stuck...

Well the same cannot be said about the quran. that statement cannot be proven. I've just shown that the bible contradicts itself so the burden of proof is no longer on me. In order to prove that this was a mistake in copying you have to prove that there is no contradiction in the original. So please do so I would love to see.

A text that does not contradict itself does not prove it's incorrect. If the implication is that errors creep in when copying texts, then I think we need to know where this original copy of the Quran resides. We can then sort out the veracity of that text.

(to another poster)
To you the claim may be meaningless because you dont believe the bible to be true. But to someone who does then my claim is not meaningless so if you dont believe in the bible then this post doesn't apply to you obviously!

I accept the Bible has errors, what proof do you have that the Quran is more correct?

[muhammad rasullah]

Muhammad Rasullah:

I accept your proof the Bible is untrue, that I can deal with.

Here's where I get stuck...

Well the same cannot be said about the quran. that statement cannot be proven. I've just shown that the bible contradicts itself so the burden of proof is no longer on me. In order to prove that this was a mistake in copying you have to prove that there is no contradiction in the original. So please do so I would love to see.

A text that does not contradict itself does not prove it's incorrect. If the implication is that errors creep in when copying texts, then I think we need to know where this original copy of the Quran resides. We can then sort out the veracity of that text.

(to another poster)
To you the claim may be meaningless because you dont believe the bible to be true. But to someone who does then my claim is not meaningless so if you dont believe in the bible then this post doesn't apply to you obviously!

I accept the Bible has errors, what proof do you have that the Quran is more correct?

The quran itself makes it explicitly clear that this is a book where there is no doubt.
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
Nowhere in the bible or any other book for that matter is any statement like this given to assure of its authenticity.
56:77 That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable
56:78 In Book well-guarded
The quran bears witness to itself and its own authenticity
4:82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
10:37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.
And again Allah says
17:88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
The quran gives evidence of itself and no other book has a statement like this that only can be made by God. Now surely you would say that this is a matter of belief and it is. But it has been proven that the quran has never been changed, that it is the same form as when it was revealed to the prophet. And there are manuscrpits which back up this statement which go back to as early as 40 years after the death of the prophet. Also besides the documentation the quran is the only book in the world that has been memorized from beginning to end and is a practice amongst muslims. The most memorized book, it was also a practice by the prophet and the people of that time which continues til today. This further confirms that there has been no alterations within the quran because if it was then someone would have found it. Now the task would be yours to find a single statement that is contradictory in the quran. you are free to do so.

[Cathar1950]

A text that does not contradict itself does not prove it's incorrect. If the implication is that errors creep in when copying texts, then I think we need to know where this original copy of the Quran resides. We can then sort out the veracity of that text.

(to another poster)
To you the claim may be meaningless because you dont believe the bible to be true. But to someone who does then my claim is not meaningless so if you dont believe in the bible then this post doesn't apply to you obviously!

I accept the Bible has errors, what proof do you have that the Quran is more correct?

The quran itself makes it explicitly clear that this is a book where there is no doubt.
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
Nowhere in the bible or any other book for that matter is any statement like this given to assure of its authenticity.
56:77 That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable
56:78 In Book well-guarded
The quran bears witness to itself and its own authenticity
4:82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
10:37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.
And again Allah says
17:88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
The quran gives evidence of itself and no other book has a statement like this that only can be made by God. Now surely you would say that this is a matter of belief and it is. But it has been proven that the quran has never been changed, that it is the same form as when it was revealed to the prophet. And there are manuscrpits which back up this statement which go back to as early as 40 years after the death of the prophet. Also besides the documentation the quran is the only book in the world that has been memorized from beginning to end and is a practice amongst muslims. The most memorized book, it was also a practice by the prophet and the people of that time which continues til today. This further confirms that there has been no alterations within the quran because if it was then someone would have found it. Now the task would be yours to find a single statement that is contradictory in the quran. you are free to do so.[/quote]
That is a claim not proof.
It also is enough reason to reject it.
Self referencing is not valid or reasonable.
If it doesn't have errors then it doesn't have anything to say.

[muhammad rasullah]

A text that does not contradict itself does not prove it's incorrect. If the implication is that errors creep in when copying texts, then I think we need to know where this original copy of the Quran resides. We can then sort out the veracity of that text.

(to another poster)
To you the claim may be meaningless because you dont believe the bible to be true. But to someone who does then my claim is not meaningless so if you dont believe in the bible then this post doesn't apply to you obviously!

I accept the Bible has errors, what proof do you have that the Quran is more correct?

The quran itself makes it explicitly clear that this is a book where there is no doubt.
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
Nowhere in the bible or any other book for that matter is any statement like this given to assure of its authenticity.
56:77 That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable
56:78 In Book well-guarded
The quran bears witness to itself and its own authenticity
4:82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.
10:37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.
And again Allah says
17:88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.
The quran gives evidence of itself and no other book has a statement like this that only can be made by God. Now surely you would say that this is a matter of belief and it is. But it has been proven that the quran has never been changed, that it is the same form as when it was revealed to the prophet. And there are manuscrpits which back up this statement which go back to as early as 40 years after the death of the prophet. Also besides the documentation the quran is the only book in the world that has been memorized from beginning to end and is a practice amongst muslims. The most memorized book, it was also a practice by the prophet and the people of that time which continues til today. This further confirms that there has been no alterations within the quran because if it was then someone would have found it. Now the task would be yours to find a single statement that is contradictory in the quran. you are free to do so.

That is a claim not proof.
It also is enough reason to reject it.
Self referencing is not valid or reasonable.
If it doesn't have errors then it doesn't have anything to say.[/quote]
I dont know what kind of logic that is. if it doesn't have errors then it has nothing to say. If it doesn't have errors then it has even more to say because the statement are more valid than anything else if it did have errors.
It is actually very hard for me to prove that something has no errors when it has no errors. You should find something that you feel is an error and prove that case. because if you do (and surely you won't) then that in itself proves the quran wrong because the quran itself states that there are no errors or contradictions. Its like asking me to find a black spot on an all white piece of paper.
Self referencing do not absolutely prove that it is authentic buts it allows you to make your claim against it if it is not.
you are asking me to prove it but what is your standard of proof? what is your level of accepting what I have to say as proof?

[JoeyKnothead]

From Page 10 Post 95

The quran itself makes it explicitly clear that this is a book where there is no doubt.
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
Nowhere in the bible or any other book for that matter is any statement like this given to assure of its authenticity.
56:77 That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable
56:78 In Book well-guarded
The quran bears witness to itself and its own authenticity

So the Quran says it's official? Knowing it is written by human beings with a motive (proselytizing) how can we know the humans that wrote it didn't just come up with this line?

4:82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

That a book does not contradict itself does not mean that is is the word of anything other than man. Frankly there is discrepancy, but we'll save that for another thread.

10:37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds. And again Allah says
17:88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

We went over this, I find it lacks the impact of "Jurassic Park". Just because some think this book is so profound or so great still does not prove it is anything other than the product of human thought.

The quran gives evidence of itself and no other book has a statement like this that only can be made by God. Now surely you would say that this is a matter of belief and it is. But it has been proven that the quran has never been changed, that it is the same form as when it was revealed to the prophet. And there are manuscrpits which back up this statement which go back to as early as 40 years after the death of the prophet.

The fact that a book has not changed only means it has been faithfully reproduced. Yet again you make claims that have no support outside the circle of believers.

Also besides the documentation the quran is the only book in the world that has been memorized from beginning to end and is a practice amongst muslims. The most memorized book, it was also a practice by the prophet and the people of that time which continues til today. This further confirms that there has been no alterations within the quran because if it was then someone would have found it.

As a third grader I had to memorize some play about some stupid wolf and a rabbit or some such. Am I to assume my memorizing that makes it holy?
Just because some folks choose to memorize something does not make it holy.

Now the task would be yours to find a single statement that is contradictory in the quran. you are free to do so.

As you are implying lack of proof for the Bible is proof for the Quran, it is beholden upon you to prove the quran is more valid than the Bible or any other religious texts.
----------
From Page 10 Post 97

you are asking me to prove it but what is your standard of proof? what is your level of accepting what I have to say as proof?

Step 1: Prove your preffered God exists
Step 2: Prove your preffered religious text is the word of your preffered God.
Step 3: Prophet.
(profit/prophet, get it?)

[Cathar1950]

From Page 10 Post 95

The quran itself makes it explicitly clear that this is a book where there is no doubt.
2:2 This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
Nowhere in the bible or any other book for that matter is any statement like this given to assure of its authenticity.
56:77 That this is indeed a qur'an Most Honourable
56:78 In Book well-guarded
The quran bears witness to itself and its own authenticity

So the Quran says it's official? Knowing it is written by human beings with a motive (proselytizing) how can we know the humans that wrote it didn't just come up with this line?

4:82 Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

That a book does not contradict itself does not mean that is is the word of anything other than man. Frankly there is discrepancy, but we'll save that for another thread.

10:37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah. on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds. And again Allah says
17:88 Say: "If the whole of mankind and Jinns were to gather together to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like thereof, even if they backed up each other with help and support.

We went over this, I find it lacks the impact of "Jurassic Park". Just because some think this book is so profound or so great still does not prove it is anything other than the product of human thought.

The quran gives evidence of itself and no other book has a statement like this that only can be made by God. Now surely you would say that this is a matter of belief and it is. But it has been proven that the quran has never been changed, that it is the same form as when it was revealed to the prophet. And there are manuscrpits which back up this statement which go back to as early as 40 years after the death of the prophet.

The fact that a book has not changed only means it has been faithfully reproduced. Yet again you make claims that have no support outside the circle of believers.

Also besides the documentation the quran is the only book in the world that has been memorized from beginning to end and is a practice amongst muslims. The most memorized book, it was also a practice by the prophet and the people of that time which continues til today. This further confirms that there has been no alterations within the quran because if it was then someone would have found it.

As a third grader I had to memorize some play about some stupid wolf and a rabbit or some such. Am I to assume my memorizing that makes it holy?
Just because some folks choose to memorize something does not make it holy.

Now the task would be yours to find a single statement that is contradictory in the quran. you are free to do so.

As you are implying lack of proof for the Bible is proof for the Quran, it is beholden upon you to prove the quran is more valid than the Bible or any other religious texts.
----------
From Page 10 Post 97

you are asking me to prove it but what is your standard of proof? what is your level of accepting what I have to say as proof?

Step 1: Prove your preffered God exists
Step 2: Prove your preffered religious text is the word of your preffered God.
Step 3: Prophet.
(profit/prophet, get it?)

I must agree.

I would like him to prove it is without error. He is making the claim.
He claims it is from God Himself and perfect yet fail to even explain where or how.
Show us that it is anything more then a human writing.
There are many examples of such writings and some Christians make the same claims about their book. Showing the Christian book is wrong does not make the case for his book. Finding flaws in his book can be as simple and be dismissed as “we don’t understand� as they insist it has no flaws therefore any thing read is not flawed.
It seems that the more they insist that their books are flawless the less chance they are still useful as they overstate their case.
Reactionary measures are usually done when their books must be defended because they are no longer relevant.

[muhammad rasullah]

So what you are searching for is proof that the knowledge in the quran man could not have come up with himself. Okay I will consent to that.

In the Qur'an, which was revealed fourteen centuries ago at a time when the science of astronomy was still primitive, the expansion of the universe was described in the following terms:

And it is We Who have constructed the heaven with might, and verily, it is We Who are steadily expanding it. (Qur'an, 51:47)

The word "heaven," as stated in the verse above, is used in various places in the Qur'an. It is referring to space and the wider universe. Here again, the word is used with this meaning, stating that the universe "expands." The Arabic word "moosiaaoona" in the term "inna lamoosiaaoona," translated into English as "it is We Who are steadily expanding it", comes from the verb "evsea," meaning "to expand." The prefix "la" emphasises the following name or title and adds a sense of "to a great extent." This expression therefore means "We expand the sky or the universe to a great extent." This is the very conclusion that science has reached today.
How could this have been known at the time of the prophet over 1400 years ago? It is there and science has proven this a a fact. So now you have to answer the question in a reasonable and logical way with proof as to where else this knowledge could've come from? considering that knowone knew this to be true.
The link is given and you can read more about it yourself...

http://www.miraclesofthequran.com/scientific_02.html