Will Humans Have Freewill in Heaven?

[river]

Christians often explain why God allowed Adam to sin by saying thatthat without freewill it would be impossible for man to truly love God and of course, a freewill meant the possibility of sin. But this raises the question will humans have freewill in Heaven? If so then the same possibility of sin will exist. What will the consequence be tfor those who sin in Heaven? What were the consequences tor the angels that sinned?

If true love and joy could not exist in Eden without freewill and the possibility of sin then it cannot exist in Heaven. In fact, there will not only be the possibility of sin but it is probable, even inevitable that many humans will sin.

Every human who goes to Heaven will know at least one person who did not make it. A spouse, a parent, a child, a friend. The book of Revelations tells us the smoke of there torment will go up before the Lord forever. For the humans in Heaven this will be a constant reminder of something sinister in God. This will be worse than slavery. The African slaves could not choose their actions and were often forced to smile at the most gruesome treatments but at least they had the privacy of their own feelings and thoughts. In the presence of a God who knows our thoughts before we think them we won't even have that. We will be like zombies. If we have any freewill at all we will seek to be free. The evil of rebellion is not in the rebel but in the tyranny that makes rebellion necessary.

Some may be tempted to say that we will be so grateful for the sacrifice of Jesus that we won't want to rebel. Sacrifice alone cannot sustain gratitude. If anything, sacrifice with strings of obligation attached to it evokes resentment.

The smoke of the torment of our loved ones will go up as an eternal reminder to us of what will happen if we sin. Gratitude cannot be sustained under threat.. Gratitude and love will die and in their place will arise fear and hatred of this mater who cannot be resisted. Our fear and hatred will be known and surely punished. Since there will be no more sacrifice for sin the only punishment will be eternal damnation. The only way God can avoid eventually having to damn the entire human race is to take away our freewill.

It doesn't help to say that we will be perfect beings who won't have a sin nature that can feel fear, resentment and rebellion. The angels who rebelled in Heaven, not just the ones who rebelled with satan but also the ones who in Jude left their first estate and married human women, were not descendants of Adam and had no sin nature but they did have freewill. Paul tells us we will be like the angels. If the angels could rebel then we will be able to as well. Again, if God is able to let us have free will but still keep us from rebelling in Heaven then he could have done it in Eden and he could have kept the angels from rebelling. If we resort to the God can do anything answer we defeat the God had to allow sin answer.

[JehovahsWitness]

Firstly free will will always exist. The bible explains that many (up to a third) of the angels exercised their free will in rebellion and that heaven has witnesses wars and battles because of it.

Satan himself if a rebellious angel so heaven is not a place were it has not always been peaceful or free of conflict. Angels are not immortal and so face destruction for making the wrong choice just as humans do. Free will does not mean "free from consequence/punishment" so while humans and spirits will always be free to rebell, future rebellions will not necessarily be tolerated or allowed to disturb the peace and security of others.

[Zzyzx]

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By what authority do you make the following (bolded) claims in reasoned DEBATE? Cite your evidence.

Firstly free will will always exist. The bible explains that many (up to a third) of the angels exercised their free will in rebellion and that heaven has witnesses wars and battles because of it.

Satan himself if a rebellious angel so heaven is not a place were it has not always been peaceful or free of conflict.

Angels are not immortal and so face destruction for making the wrong choice just as humans do.

Free will does not mean "free from consequence/punishment" so while humans and spirits will always be free to rebell, future rebellions will not necessarily be tolerated or allowed to disturb the peace and security of others.

Remember that the bible cannot be considered authoritative in this sub-forum.

[JehovahsWitness]

.
By what authority do you make the following (bolded) claims in reasoned DEBATE? Cite your evidence.

Firstly free will will always exist. The bible explains that many (up to a third) of the angels exercised their free will in rebellion and that heaven has witnesses wars and battles because of it.

Satan himself if a rebellious angel so heaven is not a place were it has not always been peaceful or free of conflict.

Angels are not immortal and so face destruction for making the wrong choice just as humans do.

Free will does not mean "free from consequence/punishment" so while humans and spirits will always be free to rebell, future rebellions will not necessarily be tolerated or allowed to disturb the peace and security of others.

Remember that the bible cannot be considered authoritative in this sub-forum.

Did I say it was? I was referencing my comments, which I believe is good form. Just as a poster that refers to a definition will refer to the dictionary he gets it from. Without a comment that states specifically that that particular dictionary is the ultimate authority on the matter, why would a reminder that there are "other dictionaries" be necessary. That is a given.

A reminder implies some indication that a fact has been forgotten, what in my post indicates this is the case? Or are you suggesting that no reference can be made to any outside source (or that said sources are limited to a particular approved list for this forum)?

[Flail]

If freewill is not present in Heaven, if all questions there are pre-answered, if all risks are gone and behaviors pre-determined, if everything is good and wonderful, then count me out of such a 'brain dead' existence.(not that I was ever in)

[Zzyzx]

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Without a comment that states specifically that that particular dictionary is the ultimate authority on the matter, why would a reminder that there are "other dictionaries" be necessary. That is a given.

To what "dictionary" do you refer?

A reminder implies some indication that a fact has been forgotten,

Or that a fact has been overlooked or ignored.

Or are you suggesting that no reference can be made to any outside source (or that said sources are limited to a particular approved list for this forum)?

To what "outside source" do you refer?

[McCulloch]

Firstly free will will always exist.

Or free will has never existed. Do you have any evidence or a convincing argument to back up this bold and unsupported assertion?

The bible explains that many (up to a third) of the angels exercised their free will in rebellion and that heaven has witnesses wars and battles because of it.

If you read the passages that allude to that event literally, you must come to the conclusion that angels are incredibly stupid creatures.

Satan himself if a rebellious angel so heaven is not a place were it has not always been peaceful or free of conflict. Angels are not immortal and so face destruction for making the wrong choice just as humans do. Free will does not mean "free from consequence/punishment" so while humans and spirits will always be free to rebel, future rebellions will not necessarily be tolerated or allowed to disturb the peace and security of others.

So will those in heaven be free to rebel or not? If so, then since rebellion will not be tolerated, then the residents' tenure in heaven is not necessarily eternal but conditional. So even with a very very low rate of rebellion, let's say one out of every 144,000 souls each one thousand years, eventually the population of heaven will drop by attrition. If not, then there is no free will in heaven.

The other argument against free will in heaven involves the common Christian apologetic answer to the problem of evil. Free will is usually invoked to explain why God would tolerate the existence of evil in the universe. If God has good intentions towards his creation and wishes that his created beings have free will, then he would have created the the best possible universe consistent with free will. If heaven is a better place than this universe, then in order to be a better place, it must not have free will, if this universe is the best possible place that allows free will. To argue that heaven allows free will and that heaven is a better place than here is to concede that the creator God is not completely good.

[flitzerbiest]

If freewill is not present in Heaven, if all questions there are pre-answered, if all risks are gone and behaviors pre-determined, if everything is good and wonderful, then count me out of such a 'brain dead' existence.(not that I was ever in)

Thus the logical conundrum. If heaven is configured in such a way that no evil choice can possibly be made, then the will is by definition constrained, not free. In fact, depending on how narrowly "the good" is defined, there might not be any choice at all, since the perfect would ever be the enemy of the good. If one must always do that which is best, and that which is best is clearly known, then there is no role for free thinking to play.

[river]

It is the Christian's hope that their God has a plan to create a Heaven in which humans will be happy under his absolute authority. As was said above there is no happiness without free will and as I said before free will cannot operate under absolute authority. If I cannot even think a private thought how is my will free. But Christians must have this hope. The very nature of their god is omnipotent, omniscience and omnipresent. It is not possible for such a deity to exist and not have absolute authority. If the Christian God ever comes to the realization of what we already know he will be left with no choice but to either abandon his creation or destroy it.

But since the Christian God doesn't really exist anywhere outside the Christian mind he will never have to come to any logical realization but this hope will continue for thousands of years as it already has.

[ChristShepherd]

IMO, Heaven will be very much like the garden of Eden.
Christians will run naked through God's garden. They will come when Jesus calls or whistles. When Jesus says come and eat, they wll eat the fruit of the garden from his hands. At night they will curl up on the rug by Jesus' bed. Maybe Jesus' favorites will sleep at his feet. No need for the stress of thinking, Jesus will decide what is best for his chosen ones.
But there is one big drawback. No sex. At least my dog gets to have sex with my neighbors dog behind the bushes.