How do we know a sinner when we see one?

[Argenta]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

[theopoesis]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

Quite the interesting question you pose, Argenta. I think things might be a bit more complicated, though.

There are many different aspects of the New Testament description of sin. A prominent theme is violation of God's law (and this is particularly evident in Paul), but there are certainly other aspects. Sin is depicted as having improper emotions or an incorrect spiritual and mental state. Sin is described as an affliction or a spiritual power of oppression. Sin is following oneself or following the devil instead of God. The list could go on.

The point is that any analysis (empirical or otherwise) of the Christian claim of universal sin would need to extend beyond adherence to an agreed upon set of laws. I'm not sure that the full definition of sin can be answered for others very easily, but it is easier to answer for one's self. I don't have access to other's mental, spiritual, psychological state.

I'll be curious to see how others respond to your post.

[Argenta]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

Quite the interesting question you pose, Argenta. I think things might be a bit more complicated, though.

There are many different aspects of the New Testament description of sin. A prominent theme is violation of God's law (and this is particularly evident in Paul), but there are certainly other aspects. Sin is depicted as having improper emotions or an incorrect spiritual and mental state. Sin is described as an affliction or a spiritual power of oppression. Sin is following oneself or following the devil instead of God. The list could go on.

The point is that any analysis (empirical or otherwise) of the Christian claim of universal sin would need to extend beyond adherence to an agreed upon set of laws. I'm not sure that the full definition of sin can be answered for others very easily, but it is easier to answer for one's self. I don't have access to other's mental, spiritual, psychological state.

I'll be curious to see how others respond to your post.

The question "Are all humans sinners?" has an answer in principle even if it is impractibly difficult to determine. But we have to start with a list of laws.

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

[Adstar]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

When you look upon any human being, you will be looking at a sinner. Look in a mirror and you will be looking at a sinner.

Yes those who are without sin are free from the need of the atonement of the Messiah Jesus. Only the little ones, innocents are without sin.

The Laws of Jesus are 2

Matthew 22
37 Jesus said to him, “ ‘You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.�

No one is free from sin. Sin happens when we think it. We do not even need to perform the thoughts for it to be a sin.

Two of the 10 commandments say it is wrong to kill and also it is wrong to commit adultery.

Jesus said:

Matthew 5
28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.

And it says in 1 John 3

1 John 3
15 Whoever hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him.

So the law's job is to give the realisation to all men that they are sinners and they all fall short of the perfection needed to enter into Eternity with a Perfect God, in doing this it also reveals the need for Redemption through the Redeemer, the Messiah Jesus.

I wish to be free of sin, But i know that will only come when i am transformed at the resurrection. If one loves their sin then they will not be transformed.



All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[wonderer]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

According to my understanding of Christianity, a sinner is not simply one who breaks God's law, a sinner is one who is not born again 'into Christ'. When one is born again he is placed, spiritually, into Christ, and must try to act 'in the spirit', ie. not according to his own fleshly desires, but according to Christ's will. A born again person can move in and out of Christ, spiritually, from moment to moment, but the aim is to stay 'in' him. Whatever is done 'in Christ' is good, and whatever is done not 'in Christ', 'in the flesh', is sin. Its not so much about obeying certain laws, but about 'being in Christ', being 'a new creation'.

[Adstar]

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

Resisting our own sin is not done out of the expectation of having a victory over our own sin nature. It is not out of the feeling that we must produce a victory over our sin nature to pass some kind of Get into eternity with God test.

We resist sin out of the Love for God, and agreement with His WORD.

I do not feel anxiety about the sins i do. I feel more pain and am troubled far more by the Good things i have failed to do, rather than the bad things i have done. I know Jesus has covered all the sins i have done in the past and all the sin I shall ever do.


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

[Argenta]

I posed this question thinking it was rather mundane only to find that the responses made it interesting.

Admittedly I have only had a handful of replies but they do follow a pattern. All agree that all post-infant humans are sinners. But this seems to be an article of faith (dogma)
rather than something that is empirically known.

All agree that sin is not to be found exclusively in actions but in thoughts too. And there are clearly different ideas of what amounts to sin from different Christians.

Strangely, no-one has offered a list of laws. Why not? Surely this should be the simplest of things to do (even if it’s a long list). After all, sin is one of the central themes of Christian theology (if not the central theme).

I get the feeling that modern Christians have changed the concept of sin in the same way they have updated Christian moral teachings (eg today everyone regards slavery as an abomination). Sin was once straightforward—transgression of God’s law and you can find lists of laws in Deuteronomy, Leviticus and other books. But sin is now a much less concrete thing, such as not “being in Christ� (whatever that means).

Nevertheless, if I wish to serve God and keep myself as free of sin as humanly possible I need to know what I can do and what I cannot do. This is particularly important for Christians who believe their place in heaven relies upon what they do on earth rather than simply what they believe.

So will someone step up to the plate and suggest a list of sins? If not, we’ll have to consider the implications for Christianity if sin is actually not understood. “You are all sinners� but we don’t know what a sinner is doesn’t sound entirely coherent.

Argenta

[Telora]

A sinner is one who transgresses God’s law. But what is God’s law? Would any two Christians agree on exactly what this law is? Presumably, the Ten Commandments are included but what about the laws set out in Deuteronomy et al? Is wearing a garment made of two fibres a sin? Am I a sinner if I refuse to stone my unruly child? If we could agree what God’s law is we may be able to establish if all humans really are sinners.

Christianity teaches that all humans are sinners as a principle when in fact it is a question that admits of an empirical answer. Does Christianity say this because those who are free of sin do not need Jesus Christ?

If only the Ten Commandments are included it may be that some people are free of sin. The truth is we cannot know until we define god’s laws explicitly. Can we compile a comprehensive list of sins? And if we can, I wonder if anyone would truly wish to be sin-free?

Argenta

Egypt had 42 commandments.

http://xenophilius.wordpress.com/2008/0 ... mandments/

Christianity was birthed from all sorts of influences, look to the roman church to understand the concept of sin, they elaborated on it.

http://whitestonejournal.com/index.php/ ... eadly-sins

that's why i think a heart is important to all decisions.

[theopoesis]

The question "Are all humans sinners?" has an answer in principle even if it is impractibly difficult to determine. But we have to start with a list of laws.

In any case, don't Christians strive to be free of sin? How can they do this without knowing what God's laws actually are?

A list of laws is one way to start. But if that's only one aspect of sin according to the NT, it's not the only way or the necessary way. I suppose if you wanted an easy list, you could look at Matthew 22:37-40:

" 37 Jesus replied: "'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."

[Slopeshoulder]

Three quick thoughts:

- I see NO reason we need to start with a list. Who decided that and by what criteria?

- Sin, understood as a universal is more about insight into the human condition. "Sin" is the universal falling short of our own character and moral aspirations. It is a radical finitide amidst consciousness of infinitude (perfection). As such, sinful acts come second are mere examples and expressions of this "sinful" nature. To start with a list misunderstands sin by reducing it to acts and to rules rather than understanding as an insight into human nature and experience that lies prior to the acts. You dig?

- In this sense I spot a sinner everytime I open my eyes, starting with when I look in the mirror every morning. And, if this is our nature, I forgive and do my best, seeking transformation in every moment. That's what Xty is all about charlie brown.