Child rape and the Catholic Church

[notachance]

Can we all agree that raping a child is bad?

Now, there have been numerous fully documented cases of Catholic priests raping children.

This is important: I do NOT blame the institution of the Catholic Church for those rapes.

While a case could be made that for the Church to forbid consensual sex among its adults members might enhance the desire to rape children in those members who already have a tendency to do so, but that is NOT the argument I make here.

The responsibility for those child-rapes ultimately rests with those priests who committed the rapes.

Here is my problem: It's an irrefutable fact that the Church, instead of immediately reporting these rapes to the authorities, and instead of using their considerable influence to ensure that the criminals faced the most stringent punishments for their crimes, they did the opposite.

They actively labored to ensure that these pedophiles could continue raping as many children as possible. It's an incontrovertible fact that they used their influence to protect the rapists from justice by hiding their identity and relocating them to new parishes where they could rape again. When they were relocated and they raped children again, they would relocate them again. And again. And again.

This is fully documented and undeniable. If anybody is unaware of the facts, I strongly recommend you watch the documentary "Deliver us from evil", which I think is both on Netflix and Hulu.

That is the problem. If the Church had not labored to protect these rapists and give them the means and opportunity to continue raping, less children would have been raped.

While the Catholic Church is not responsible for the fact that some people are seriously mentally sick and enjoy raping children, they are responsible for every single child that was raped subsequent to it coming to their attention that rape was taking place, and subsequent to their failure to stop further incidents.



Lets assume that there are some pedophiles among the American Atheist Association. I know of no reported cases, but it's not impossible, and let's assume that it's the case for the purpose of the argument.

That in itself does not speak about the morality of that atheist institution as a whole. BUT, if it transpired that the atheist institution was using its influence to enable extensive raping by its members instead of reporting the crime to the police, there would be an outrage. The entire American Atheist Association would literally be dismantled overnight by the FBI, and every upper management executive would spend the rest of his life as the personal boy toy of some prison gang leader.


Raping children is wrong. An institutionalized and systemic policy to ensure that as many children as possible are raped is even worse.

The only thing that's worse than killing a Jew is designing a concentration camp to kill many Jews.

The only thing worse than raping a child is designing an institutionalized system to rape many children.

I submit to you that the Catholic Church's actions are unforgivable, and that it's immoral for anybody to associate himself/herself with such an evil institution.

If you ever donated money to the Catholic Church, it's an inescapable mathematical fact that some of it went to pay off rape victims, pay for the expense of relocating a rapist, and to otherwise prevent rapists from being arrested, thus enabling additional rapes.

While I'm sure that my distaste comes across in this post, I submit that it cannot be called inflammatory, or offensive, or a carpet statement, or otherwise forbidden, unless a reasonable case can be made that anything I'm saying is not true, and that my anger is not justified.

[Alueshen]

If you would just like to read a bit about it.


phttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_sex_abuse_cases

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... eport.html

[notachance]

A few more links. Read up folks.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/ ... 35449.html

http://wonkette.com/446540/popes-pedoph ... pedophilia

http://www.snapnetwork.org/snap_stateme ... cision.htm

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/pope-bene ... d=10200682

This one is amazing: "Senior Vatican officials, including the current pope, refused to punish a priest who sexually assaulted as many as 200 deaf boys over the course of three decades, "
http://abcnews.go.com/WN/TheLaw/pope-de ... d=10200159

[dianaiad]

[quote="notachance"]Can we all agree that raping a child is bad?

<snip to end>

Was there a question for debate here?

Oh, by the way, if you think that the Catholic church has NOT been the subject of outrage over this, you haven't been paying attention. I rather doubt that the American Atheists would be subject to MORE of it than the Catholics are.

..................and also, by the way, stuff like this is why there are Protestants. Did you ever read Luthor's 95 theses? Among them were problems with the way the priests handled things...like selling indulgences, for instance.

While, then, I can understand your feelings regarding this issue, it's a well publicized issue, well exposed; we all know and are not happy about any of it. We get it. You don't like priests molesting children. None here do, I imagine.

............but what's your question for debate?

[notachance]

Can we all agree that raping a child is bad?

<snip to end>

Was there a question for debate here?

Oh, by the way, if you think that the Catholic church has NOT been the subject of outrage over this, you haven't been paying attention. I rather doubt that the American Atheists would be subject to MORE of it than the Catholics are.

..................and also, by the way, stuff like this is why there are Protestants. Did you ever read Luthor's 95 theses? Among them were problems with the way the priests handled things...like selling indulgences, for instance.

While, then, I can understand your feelings regarding this issue, it's a well publicized issue, well exposed; we all know and are not happy about any of it. We get it. You don't like priests molesting children. None here do, I imagine.

............but what's your question for debate?

Well, I guess the implied question, addressed to catholics rather than protestants, is this: Don't you find it a moral imperative to leave the Catholic Church?

The questions for Other Christians is this: Why aren't you speaking out agaisnt Catholics and openly stating that they aren't true Christians?

I mean, if Episcopalians started drinking children's blood and sacrificing small animals during mass, wouldn't you say they're not true Christians?

Isn't an epidemic of centrally approved systematic extensive child rape worse?

I rather doubt that the American Atheists would be subject to MORE of it than the Catholics are

Please Diana, let's not kid ourselves. Sure, it's been publicized. But it hasn't been shut down. If it were a non-religious organization, or even worse if it were an anti-religious organization, it would have been destroyed within weeks of discovering the scandal. A member of that anti-religion organization would not be able to safely walk down the street. Let's not kid ourselves.

Saying that a non religious organization would have been treated the same as the Catholic church was treated, is as absurd as claiming that any black guy receives the same trial as OJ Simpson did.

[AquinasD]

1) The Catholic Church says that people do evil things

2) People in the Catholic Church do evil things

3) Therefore, the Catholic Church is wrong

And sometimes you see fat people at the gym or medical doctors that smoke.

[dianaiad]

Can we all agree that raping a child is bad?

<snip to end>

Was there a question for debate here?

Oh, by the way, if you think that the Catholic church has NOT been the subject of outrage over this, you haven't been paying attention. I rather doubt that the American Atheists would be subject to MORE of it than the Catholics are.

..................and also, by the way, stuff like this is why there are Protestants. Did you ever read Luthor's 95 theses? Among them were problems with the way the priests handled things...like selling indulgences, for instance.

While, then, I can understand your feelings regarding this issue, it's a well publicized issue, well exposed; we all know and are not happy about any of it. We get it. You don't like priests molesting children. None here do, I imagine.

............but what's your question for debate?

Well, I guess the implied question, addressed to catholics rather than protestants, is this: Don't you find it a moral imperative to leave the Catholic Church?

Many of them are, just as many left back during the Reformation. Most of them, though, understand that the actions of people who disobey the rules, even if those people are those who are supposed to be enforcing/teaching those rules, do not invalidate the rules/teachings themselves. They prefer to reform from within.

The questions for Other Christians is this: Why aren't you speaking out agaisnt Catholics and openly stating that they aren't true Christians?

Great googly moogly, man, where have YOU been? If there is one thing that is endemic among Protestants, especially evangelicals, it is the idea that Catholics are NOT Christian. Check it out yourself in just about any Christian forum (other than this one, of course.)

Now me, I would never do, nor say, that, because they are indeed Christians. Those who fall may not be very successful ones, but that's between them and Christ, and not my call.

I mean, if Episcopalians started drinking children's blood and sacrificing small animals during mass, wouldn't you say they're not true Christians?

er...did I miss something?

Isn't an epidemic of centrally approved systematic extensive child rape worse?

The rapes were not approved of. If they were, there would have been no need to cover them up. One does not engage in a wholesale attempt to sweep under the rug actions that one is proud of, or approves of. Quite the opposite. The horror here is, of course, the rapes...but everybody is horrified by those, even those who hid them. The added horror is that the church thought it was more important to save its reputation than it's children.

I rather doubt that the American Atheists would be subject to MORE of it than the Catholics are

Please Diana, let's not kid ourselves. Sure, it's been publicized. But it hasn't been shut down.

You really HAVEN'T been paying attention, have you? Have you SEEN the results of the various lawsuits? The difference in the way such accusations are being treated?

If it were a non-religious organization, or even worse if it were an anti-religious organization, it would have been destroyed within weeks of discovering the scandal. A member of that anti-religion organization would not be able to safely walk down the street. Let's not kid ourselves.

You realize that there are over a billion Catholics on the planet, right? This organization can absorb far more opposition than even the next smallest group; and even it is feeling the pressure. So while you might have a point (look what happened to the McMartins, and they were innocent!) I also think you need to remember that the flood that would destroy a tipi probably wouldn't wipe out the mountain it stood on. It's not fair to compare the two and cry foul; the force involved is the same--it's just that the job is bigger.

Saying that a non religious organization would have been treated the same as the Catholic church was treated, is as absurd as claiming that any black guy receives the same trial as OJ Simpson did.

They would be treated the same. Again, where have you been? The Catholic Church has not been treated all that kindly. Just because it is bigger doesn't mean that the attacks are smaller.

[notachance]

1) The Catholic Church says that people do evil things

Nobody cares what the catholic church says. It lost all credibility.

2) People in the Catholic Church do evil things

It's not just about evil things that individuals do. The entire institution is evil. The evil is systemic. The Pope is the most active supporter of rape in the history of the world.

3) Therefore, the Catholic Church is wrong

Agreed. It should be abolished.

And sometimes you see fat people at the gym or medical doctors that smoke.

I'm assuming this last portion of your post is reserved for random comments that don't make any sense and have nothing to do with anything.

[AquinasD]

It's not just about evil things that individuals do. The entire institution is evil. The evil is systemic. The Pope is the most active supporter of rape in the history of the world.

Really? Please demonstrate.

You have shown examples of individuals who were persistent in child molestation and other individuals in the hierarchy who failed to remove them from their position. (I would note you haven't demonstrated that the Pope actively, or secretly, advocates child molestation at the hands of priests.)

This is, so far as I can tell, separate from demonstrating that the "entire institution" is evil, whatever you mean to refer to by "institution" or what it would be for it to be evil.

Agreed. It should be abolished.

Are you suggesting a war or some concerted effort towards the elimination of Catholic believers?

And sometimes you see fat people at the gym or medical doctors that smoke.

I'm assuming this last portion of your post is reserved for random comments that don't make any sense and have nothing to do with anything.

There are sinners in the Church.

That is a trivial point. Of course there are sinners in the Church.

Are you meaning to say that a proposition or moral prescription is proven wrong because someone who believes, or at least claims to believe, its truth acts against it?

[notachance]

It's not just about evil things that individuals do. The entire institution is evil. The evil is systemic. The Pope is the most active supporter of rape in the history of the world.

Really? Please demonstrate.

Ok. I will.

Imagine you could magically cause any single person in the world to completely change the way they are, in any way you want.

For example, you could cause Pat Robertson to become an atheist, or Richard Dawkins to become an evangelical, or Michael Moore to become a conservative or Rush Limbaugh a liberal, etc.

Now, imagine you had this magical power, and your goal was to reduce the number of Jews that got killed in WWII.

Who would you change, and how?

I would change Hitler from an anti-Semitic into a Zionist. Changing that individual in that specific way would be the single action that would reduce Jew casualties the most.

Now, imagine you had this magical power, and your goal was to reduce the number of children who get raped in the world.

Who would you change, and how?

I would change the Pope from implementing a policy of protecting pedophiles to a policy of exposing them and bringing them to justice. This would literally save thousands of children from being raped.

There isn't any other individual you could change in any way, that would reduce the number of children being raped to a greater degree.

No individual's decision causes more children to be raped, than the Pope's policy of protecting pedophiles.

The Pope is the most active supporter of child rape in the world. Hands down. No questions about it. Case closed.

You have shown examples of individuals who were persistent in child molestation and other individuals in the hierarchy who failed to remove them from their position. (I would note you haven't demonstrated that the Pope actively, or secretly, advocates child molestation at the hands of priests.)

Was the Pope aware of the child raping going on, yes or no? Did he have the power to stop it, yes or no? Did he stop it, yes or no?

He's the boss of Catholicism. It's ultimately his responsibility.

This is, so far as I can tell, separate from demonstrating that the "entire institution" is evil, whatever you mean to refer to by "institution" or what it would be for it to be evil.

An evil institution is one which actively supports the raping of children. That's how I define evil. By "institution" in this case I mean every member of the Clergy. Kinda like when I say "the Nazi institution is evil" I mean "Every active member of the Nazi party" is evil.

Agreed. It should be abolished.

Are you suggesting a war or some concerted effort towards the elimination of Catholic believers?

Absolutely not. Just like I wouldn't condone the elimination of any person with Neo-Nazi ideology or other person who sympathizes with Nazi ideology. But I would suggest that we institute the equivalent of Nuremberg trials whereby we put the Pope, all the Cardinals and all the Bishops on trial for their crimes.

There are sinners in the Church.

That is a trivial point. Of course there are sinners in the Church.

Of course you would find the raping of thousands of children trivial. To you it's no big deal. You can shrug your shoulders and say "Eh, we're not perfect. What the heck, nobody's perfect". That's why you are a Catholic.

To you raping children is no big deal. Kinda like to me getting too many servings from the "free samples" stand at the supermarket is no big deal. I know it's wrong, but what the heck, I'm just human, and they're so delicious.

I think that the rape of thousands of children is not trivial. And that's why I'm not a Catholic. You think it's trivial, so you're a Catholic.