Definitions of deity

[TheBlackPhilosophy]

I wish to ask a question that has long been unnoticed in debates about a deity.

By a deity I don't mean the god of the Judeo-Christian bible, but a general archetype of god.

We often use the problem of evil to show a deity that is all powerful, all knowing, and all good/loving, to be illogical. But where do we get these definitions? Are they reasonable attributes of a deity?

~Questions of definition~

1. What traits/attributes/characteristics is a deity required to have?

2. If a deity is required to have certain attributes, why?

~Questions of origin~

1. Why do we use deities as a theory of everything? (Aren't other explanations more reasonable?)

2. Can we explain the origin of a deity? (All things have an beginning and an end)

Do you think that the literalist/modern definition of a deity is logical or illogical?
(In particular the fundamentalist-christian god)

[McCulloch]

I think that is somewhat depends on what argument is being used to support the existence of the god. Of course, this is backwards thinking, one should first define terms, then seek proof.

If the Cosmological argument (AKA the argument from first cause) is being used, then the god will have had to exist outside of spacetime and be capable of causing the universe to come into existence.

If the Teleological argument (AKA the argument from design) is being used, then the god must have a few other qualities, will or intent being the most necessary.

Either way, it is meaningless to explain the origin of the god. God is said to be without origin. He has existed for all time and / or outside of time.

[Flail]

I wish to ask a question that has long been unnoticed in debates about a deity.

By a deity I don't mean the god of the Judeo-Christian bible, but a general archetype of god.

We often use the problem of evil to show a deity that is all powerful, all knowing, and all good/loving, to be illogical. But where do we get these definitions? Are they reasonable attributes of a deity?

~Questions of definition~

1. What traits/attributes/characteristics is a deity required to have?

2. If a deity is required to have certain attributes, why?

~Questions of origin~

1. Why do we use deities as a theory of everything? (Aren't other explanations more reasonable?)

2. Can we explain the origin of a deity? (All things have an beginning and an end)

Do you think that the literalist/modern definition of a deity is logical or illogical?
(In particular the fundamentalist-christian god)

As an Ignostic I don't understand how anyone could possibly have a definition for an actual deity or how we could even discern anything about supernaturals; so as to 'God' we start with presupposition and end with superstitious beliefs in whatever fictions about God that have been fed to us.

[TheBlackPhilosophy]

I suppose I should have said that this question was primarily for theists...

[Flail]

I suppose I should have said that this question was primarily for theists...

All you are going to get from theists is some preconceived, indoctrinated notions of the BibleGod or KoranGod or the like, none of which will have anything whatever to do with a deity.

[dianaiad]

I wish to ask a question that has long been unnoticed in debates about a deity.

By a deity I don't mean the god of the Judeo-Christian bible, but a general archetype of god.

That depends upon who is doing the assuming.

I find that any assumption about deity that is required by an atheist is unwarranted. After all, either He is, or He is not...and if you don't believe that He is, then how can you declare what He would HAVE to be in order to, after all, BE?

If one is a theist, the attributes of the God one believes in are not, after all, 'assumed.' They are, to the believer, actual attributes, not assumptions 'for the sake of' whatever is being addressed.

I didn't take your poll, because it's too vague, assumes too much, and raises too many questions. Before it can be at all indicative of real opinion, you are going to have to define a few things. For instance, define 'assumption.' Define 'unwarranted,' and define whether the poll is addressed to non-believers about non-believers, about non-believers by believers, about believers by non-believers, or about believers by other believers.

OH, and one other thing; under what circumstances would these assumptions be made? And argument for, an argument against...who is telling whom what God 'really' is or has to be in order to be God, and why is it important that He be THAT way, and no other?

However, for me, if it is about non-believers in general who are arguing against believers about the existence of deity, and I"m the one being asked the question (me being a believer), then the answer is pretty simple.

Yep.

[JohnPaul]

I wish to ask a question that has long been unnoticed in debates about a deity.

By a deity I don't mean the god of the Judeo-Christian bible, but a general archetype of god.

That depends upon who is doing the assuming.

I find that any assumption about deity that is required by an atheist is unwarranted. After all, either He is, or He is not...and if you don't believe that He is, then how can you declare what He would HAVE to be in order to, after all, BE?

If one is a theist, the attributes of the God one believes in are not, after all, 'assumed.' They are, to the believer, actual attributes, not assumptions 'for the sake of' whatever is being addressed.

I didn't take your poll, because it's too vague, assumes too much, and raises too many questions. Before it can be at all indicative of real opinion, you are going to have to define a few things. For instance, define 'assumption.' Define 'unwarranted,' and define whether the poll is addressed to non-believers about non-believers, about non-believers by believers, about believers by non-believers, or about believers by other believers.

OH, and one other thing; under what circumstances would these assumptions be made? And argument for, an argument against...who is telling whom what God 'really' is or has to be in order to be God, and why is it important that He be THAT way, and no other?

However, for me, if it is about non-believers in general who are arguing against believers about the existence of deity, and I"m the one being asked the question (me being a believer), then the answer is pretty simple.

Yep.

OK, Diana, enough of your slippery evasiveness. What is YOUR definition of YOUR God? And what is your authority for describing a God who is, by definition, indescribable?

John

[Flail]

dianaiad wrote:

OH, and one other thing; under what circumstances would these assumptions be made? And argument for, an argument against...who is telling whom what God 'really' is or has to be in order to be God, and why is it important that He be THAT way, and no other?

Most theists have 'their way' about 'God' to the exclusion of 'another way', and so it seems reasonable to me for us to ask what evidence, logic or reason is applicable to 'either way' or 'any way'.

dianaiad wrote:

However, for me, if it is about non-believers in general who are arguing against believers about the existence of deity, and I"m the one being asked the question (me being a believer), then the answer is pretty simple.
Yep.

As a non-believer who does not deny the possibility for the existence of some sort of supernatural ('deity'), but who doesn't think we can even coherently define what any particular deity would be, I simply ask for 'your' deity evidence, whatever you've got that justifies the way you think about 'God', and I ask that you examine by what process you arrived at such belief ideas and whether they are any more supportable than mine.

[McCulloch]

Moderator Warning


Please review our Rules.

OK, Diana, enough of your slippery evasiveness.

You can ask for clarification and expansion of an idea from another debater without accusing them of bad intentions. It is more civil that way. You know, flies, honey and vinegar.

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[joncash]

Hi TBP,

What attributes? How do you ask a poll question about the veracity of attributes of anything without supplying the attributes themselves? Doesn't this poll question put forth a question that can only be sensibly answered by people who deny that God exists?

Is this really how we debate?