"A scientific Dissent from Darwinism"

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Shermana
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"A scientific Dissent from Darwinism"

Post #1

Post by Shermana »

http://www.discovery.org/scripts/viewDB ... oad&id=660

This here is a list of many scientists and PH.D.s of numerous subjects from Genetics to Molecular Biology to Marine Geology
Radiology, Biomedical Engineering, Chemistry, Nuclear Chemistry, Organic Chemistry, Bioengineering, Immunopharmacology, Geoscience, Neuroscience, Pharmacognosy, Physiology, Kineseology, Plant Pathology, Microbiology, Molecular Biophysics, Mathematical Physics, and more, who agree that:
“We are skeptical of claims for the ability of random mutation and natural selection to account for the complexity of life. Careful examination of the evidence for Darwinian theory should be encouraged.�
This was last publicly updated December 2011. Scientists listed by doctoral degree or current position.
Are these scientists all frauds?

Are these people all motivated by personal beliefs over objective evidence?

Are they all being dishonest?

Is their view on the matter unscientific?

Do they have basis for their claim to reject the majority opinion?

Are they being more honest than the majority concensus who accepts that the Darwinian (or "Neo"-Darwinian) approach can assertively be used to define the characteristics of life?

Is there evidence that the majority concensus is using that these PH.D.s and scientists are unaware of or ignoring?

Are they evidence that there is plenty of dissent on the issue of whether Macro-evolution is a "fact"?

Can one just brush off their opinions if the majority disagrees with them?

Is it fair to conclude that their dissent might be based on an objective, empirical examination of the available data and findings?

Is it fair to conclude that those who believe that Neo-Darwinian views CAN assertively account for the diversity of life may be just as biased (i.e. coming from a "naturalistic humanism" viewpoint) in which they base their belief on their pre-determined conclusion?

Is it safe to say that "Macro-evolution" is not a 100% agreed upon fact upon Professional scientists even if the majority support such an idea?

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Post #2

Post by Artie »

I think you would need a lot more scientists expressing doubt and a lot more evidence that Darwinism is wrong to be taken seriously by the majority of scientists. I mean, 67%! of the population of the world don't believe in Christianity but do Christians actually even consider the possibility that they might be wrong and that others are honest and might have some good arguments?

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Post #3

Post by Shermana »

Artie wrote:I think you would need a lot more scientists expressing doubt and a lot more evidence that Darwinism is wrong to be taken seriously by the majority of scientists. I mean, 67%! of the population of the world don't believe in Christianity but do Christians actually even consider the possibility that they might be wrong and that others are honest and might have some good arguments?
And that's exactly what I'm discussing, are you saying that raw numbers of who believes what is all that numbers?

(PS Of those 67% who aren't Christian, I'd say most of them are not Atheist if you want get into numbers).

As for whether Christians actually even consider the possibility that they may be wrong, do you think Atheists and Secularists consider such a possibility? I mean, I think MOST so-called "Christians" wouldn't even accept that most of their Theological doctrines were wrong if Jesus himself told them, but I also think many Atheists wouldn't accept that the majority concensus of scientists were wrong even if they admitted it.

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Post #4

Post by JoeyKnothead »

From the OP:
This here is a list of many scientists and PH.D.s of numerous subjects...
Here's a list of folks who disagree with the folks on your list.

As to the various questions, I see no reason to conclude anything other than they are wrong.
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin

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Post #5

Post by Shermana »

JoeyKnothead wrote:From the OP:
This here is a list of many scientists and PH.D.s of numerous subjects...
Here's a list of folks who disagree with the folks on your list.

As to the various questions, I see no reason to conclude anything other than they are wrong.
Thank you for providing a link to a sample of the Majority Concensus, which I'm assuming means you also believe that all that matters is a raw number of who believes what. Am I mistaken when I say that you are appealing to numbers rather than addressing the very questions about the numbers?

Why would you see no reason to conclude anything than that they are all wrong? Why don't you address some of the questions like "Is there some evidence that the majority concensus knows that they don't or are ignoring." Or can I conclude that your answer is just appeal to numbers.

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Post #6

Post by Artie »

Shermana wrote:
Artie wrote:I think you would need a lot more scientists expressing doubt and a lot more evidence that Darwinism is wrong to be taken seriously by the majority of scientists. I mean, 67%! of the population of the world don't believe in Christianity but do Christians actually even consider the possibility that they might be wrong and that others are honest and might have some good arguments?
And that's exactly what I'm discussing, are you saying that raw numbers of who believes what is all that numbers?
?
(PS Of those 67% who aren't Christian, I'd say most of them are not Atheist if you want get into numbers).
About 16% don't believe in deities.
As for whether Christians actually even consider the possibility that they may be wrong, do you think Atheists and Secularists consider such a possibility? I mean, I think MOST so-called "Christians" wouldn't even accept that most of their Theological doctrines were wrong if Jesus himself told them, but I also think many Atheists wouldn't accept that the majority concensus of scientists were wrong even if they admitted it.
That wouldn't have anything to do with being an atheist. Atheists wouldn't have anything against the Theory of Evolution being replaced by another evidence-based scientific theory. But if you try to replace it with the belief that deities did it without any supporting evidence atheists would object.

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Post #7

Post by Goat »

Oh Gosh, this again...

I mean, this has been trashed over and over. If you look at the list, the vast majority of those people aren't even in biological sciences.. .. they are engineers, mathematicians, and pharmacy folks.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Scientif ... _Darwinism
Responses

The Scientific Dissent From Darwinism document has been widely criticized on several different grounds. First, similar to previous lists produced by other creationists, the professional expertise of those listed is not always apparent and is alleged to be deficient.[35] Also, the professional affiliations and credentials that are claimed for some of the signatories has been questioned. Finally, there appear to be a few who appear on the list who are not firmly committed to the agenda advanced by the Discovery Institute, and who have been misled into signing or who have changed their minds. Russell D. Renka, a political scientist, said that the Discovery Institute presented the list in an appeal to authority to support its anti-evolution viewpoint.[36]

A paper from a think tank, the Center for Inquiry said that Dissent From Darwinism is one of the Discovery Institute intelligent design campaigns to discredit evolution and bolster claims that intelligent design is scientifically valid by creating the impression that evolution lacks broad scientific support.[1]

In November 2001, the National Center for Science Education stated that the then current version of the document appeared "to be very artfully phrased" to represent a diverse range of opinions, set in a context which gives it a misleading spin to confuse the public.[11]
[edit] Expertise relevance

The listed affiliations and areas of expertise of the signatories have also been criticized,[1][12] with many signatories coming from wholly unrelated fields of academia, such as aviation and engineering, computer science and meteorology.[37]

In addition, the list was signed by only about 0.01% of scientists in the relevant fields. According to the National Science Foundation, there were approximately 955,300 biological scientists in the United States in 1999.[38] Only about 1/4 of the approximately 700 Darwin Dissenters in 2007 are biologists, according to Kenneth Chang of the New York Times.[12] Approximately 40% of the Darwin Dissenters are not identified as residing in the United States, so in 2007, there were about 105 US biologists among the Darwin Dissenters, representing about 0.01% of the total number of US biologists that existed in 1999. The theory of evolution is overwhelmingly accepted throughout the scientific community.[21] Professor Brian Alters of McGill University, an expert in the creation-evolution controversy, is quoted in an article published by the NIH as stating that "99.9 percent of scientists accept evolution".[22]

The list has been criticized by many organizations and publications for lacking any true experts in the relevant fields of research, primarily biology. Critics have noted that of the 105 "scientists" listed on the original 2001 petition, fewer than 20% were biologists, with few of the remainder having the necessary expertise to contribute meaningfully to a discussion of the role of natural selection in evolution.[11][12]
[edit] Other criticisms

Critics have also noted that the wording and advertising of the original statement was, and remains, misleading,[11] and that a review of the signatories suggested many doubt evolution due to religious, rather than scientific beliefs.[12] Robert T. Pennock notes that rather than being a "broad dissent", the statement's wording is "very narrow, omitting any mention of the evolutionary thesis of common descent, human evolution or any of the elements of evolutionary theory except for the Darwinian mechanism, and even that was mentioned in a very limited and rather vague manner." He concludes that it is not in fact a "radical statement".[39]

The claims made for the importance of the list have also been called intellectually dishonest because it represents only a small fraction of the scientific community, and includes an even smaller number of relevant experts.[40] The Discovery Institute has responded to some of these criticisms.[41][42]
[edit] Affiliations and credentials

Barbara Forrest and Glenn Branch say the Discovery Institute deliberately misrepresents the institutional affiliations of signatories of the statement A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism. The institutions appearing in the list are the result of a conscious choice by the Discovery Institute to only present the most prestigious affiliations available for an individual. For example, if someone was trained at a more prestigious institution than the one they are presently affiliated with, the school they graduated from will more often be listed, without the distinction being made clear in the list. This is contrary to standard academic and professional practice and, according to Forrest and Branch, is deliberately misleading.[1]

For example, the institutions listed for Raymond G. Bohlin, Fazale Rana, and Jonathan Wells, were the University of Texas at Dallas, Ohio University, and the University of California, Berkeley respectively, the schools from which they obtained their Ph.D. degrees. However, their present affiliations are quite different: Probe Ministries for Bohlin, the Reasons to Believe Ministry for Rana, and the Discovery Institute's Center for Science and Culture for Wells. Many of those who have signed the list are not currently active scientists, and some have never worked as scientists. Also, if a signatory was previously the head of a department or the president of an institute, their past and most prestigious position will be listed, not their current position.[1]

Visitors at prestigious institutions will have that affiliation listed, not their more humble home institutions. For example, Bernard d'Abrera, a writer and publisher of books on butterflies, appears on the list as "Visiting Scholar, Department of Entomology British Museum (Natural History)", in spite of the fact that this museum had become independent of the British Museum three decades previously and had formally changed its name to the Natural History Museum almost a decade before the petition. d'Abrera's primary affiliation is with his publishing company, Hill House Publishers. d'Abrera does not have a PhD either, nor any formal scientific qualification (his undergraduate degree was a double major in History & Philosophy of Science, and History), although creationists often call him "Dr. d'Abrera".[citation needed] The Discovery Institute currently recruits people with PhDs to sign the Dissent petition.[43]

At least one other signatory, Forrest Mims, has neither a PhD nor any formal academic training in science. Additionally, at least seven signatories have their advanced degrees from outside the areas of "engineering, mathematics, computer science, biology, chemistry, or one of the other natural sciences" that are currently being recruited: Ronald R. Crawford has his Ed.D. in Science Education, David Berlinski has his PhD in Philosophy, Tom McMullen has his PhD in the History & Philosophy of Science, Angus Menuge has his PhD in the Philosophy of Psychology, and Stephen Meyer has his PhD in the Philosophy of Science; and at least six, Jeffrey M. Schwartz, Ricardo León Borquez (incorrectly listed as "Ricardo Leon"), Gage Blackstone, Daniel Galassini, Mary A. Brown and Thomas C. Majerus, have professional doctorates (such as an MD, DVM or PharmD), rather than holding a research doctorate (such as a PhD).[citation needed]

Also, in early editions of the list, Richard Sternberg was described as "Richard Sternberg, Invertebrate Zoology, National Museum of Natural History, Smithsonian Institution" though Sternberg was never a Smithsonian staff member, but an unpaid research associate.[2] At the time of signing the list Sternberg was the outgoing editor of the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington, a minor biology journal, where he played a central role in a peer-review controversy. Later versions of the list mention Sternberg's affiliation with Sternberg's alma maters, Florida International University and Binghamton University.[37] At present Sternberg is a Staff Scientist with GenBank, the genetic database at the National Institutes of Health.[44]

Critics also say the Discovery Institute inflates the academic credentials and affiliations of signatories such as Henry F. Schaefer. The institute prominently and frequently asserts that Schaefer has been nominated for the Nobel Prize in Chemistry.[2][45] Barbara Forrest and others allege that the Discovery Institute is inflating his reputation by constantly referring to him as a "five-time nominee for the Nobel Prize" despite that Nobel Prize nominations remain confidential for fifty years[1] and there being about 250-300 nominations per prize per year.[46]

By analysing the data for 34 British, or British-trained signatories of the Dissent list, the anti-creationist British Centre for Science Education raised doubts about the claimed affiliations and relevant expertise of those on the list.[47]
[edit] Defections and disagreements

The National Center for Science Education interviewed a sample of the signatories, and found that some were less critical of "Darwinism" than the advertisement claimed.[11][48] It wrote to all of them asking whether they thought living things shared common ancestors and whether humans and apes shared common ancestors. According to Eugenie Scott of the NCSE, a few of the signatories replied saying that they did accept these principles but did not think that natural selection could explain the origins of life. However, the replies ceased when, according to Scott, the Discovery Institute found out and advised signatories not to respond. She concluded from this that "at least some of the more knowledgeable scientists did not interpret this statement the way that it was intended [by the Discovery Institute] to be interpreted by the general public."[39]

For example, Stanley N. Salthe, a visiting scientist at Binghamton University, State University of New York, who signed but describes himself as an atheist, said that when he endorsed a petition he had no idea what the Discovery Institute was. Salthe stated, "I signed it in irritation", and said that evolutionary biologists were being unfair in suppressing competing ideas. He said that "They deserve to be prodded, as it were. It was my way of thumbing my nose at them", but was unconvinced by intelligent design and concluded "From my point of view, it's a plague on both your houses".[12]


At least one signatory of A Scientific Dissent From Darwinism has abandoned the list, saying he felt misled. Robert C. Davidson, a Christian, scientist, doctor, and retired nephrology professor at the University of Washington medical school said after having signed he was shocked when he discovered that the Discovery Institute was calling evolution a "theory in crisis". "It's laughable: There have been millions of experiments over more than a century that support evolution," said Davidson. "There's always questions being asked about parts of the theory, as there are with any theory, but there's no real scientific controversy about it. ... When I joined I didn't think they were about bashing evolution. It's pseudo-science, at best. ... What they're doing is instigating a conflict between science and religion."[49]
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�

Steven Novella

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Post #8

Post by Shermana »

Check out the Talk page on that Wikipedia article, I've never seen so many accusations of violation of NPOV.

You'll also find that pretty much all the criticism is squared against the Belief itself, none of it is actually very substantial.
It's laughable: There have been millions of experiments over more than a century that support evolution," said Davidson. "
"Millions" of experiments? Has there even been a "million" scientific experiments period worldwide?
Last edited by Shermana on Mon Feb 27, 2012 9:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: "A scientific Dissent from Darwinism"

Post #9

Post by Bust Nak »

Shermana wrote:Are these scientists all frauds?
Not all, but some are. A few names stands out: Stephen Meyer, Jonathan Wells, Michael Behe and William Dembski. They are well known "cdesign proponentists."
Are these people all motivated by personal beliefs over objective evidence?
Not all of them, most are simply not aware of the evidence, while others were tricked into signing the document thinking it was a genuine statement for scientific skepticism or academic freedom.
Are they all being dishonest?
No, I suspect almost all creationists actually believe, and as mentioned above a minority weren't aware this would be used as propaganda by creationists.
Is their view on the matter unscientific?
I would say the expertise of those who signed are not in the relevant field of biology, and hence cannot be considered as professional opinion. As such I do not consider their view scientific.
Do they have basis for their claim to reject the majority opinion?
Sure, I am guessing their basis for that claim is the Bible. Having said that, I also don't see the statement equates to a rejection of the majority opinion: A scientist should always be skeptical of any scientific theory, including the role played by random mutation and natural selection in evolution.
Are they being more honest than the majority concensus who accepts that the Darwinian (or "Neo"-Darwinian) approach can assertively be used to define the characteristics of life?
It's not a matter of honesty, one can be honest and still be wrong.
Is there evidence that the majority concensus is using that these PH.D.s and scientists are unaware of or ignoring?
Sure, creationists tends to get their news after it's been filtered by the likes of Discovery Institute.
Are they evidence that there is plenty of dissent on the issue of whether Macro-evolution is a "fact"?
I wouldn't call a fraction of a percent "plenty." Non is evolution a matter of popularity.
Can one just brush off their opinions if the majority disagrees with them?
No, one should not brush off anyone's opinion because the majority disagrees with them. An opinion should be judged based on its merit.
Is it fair to conclude that their dissent might be based on an objective, empirical examination of the available data and findings?
Well, the dissent from Darwinism doesn't mentioned any evidence against evolution, but judging from what I have seen from "cdesign proponentists," I would have to say no.
Is it fair to conclude that those who believe that Neo-Darwinian views CAN assertively account for the diversity of life may be just as biased (i.e. coming from a "naturalistic humanism" viewpoint) in which they base their belief on their pre-determined conclusion?
I suppose you could make a case that the average person who accept evolution is as reliant on expert opinion as those who "dissent from Darwinism," so whether they listen to evolutionists or creationists is biased by their worldview. But with regards to evidence, there is no competition.
Is it safe to say that "Macro-evolution" is not a 100% agreed upon fact upon Professional scientists even if the majority support such an idea?
Sure.

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Post #10

Post by McCulloch »

The claims made in the document have been rejected by the consensus of the scientific community. It appears to me that the intelligent design proponents are manufacturing dissent in order to explain the absence of scientific debate of their claims. There is a nearly universal rejection of neo-creationist claims. This is not due to the conspiracy among professional biologists but in reality because of a lack of scientific merit.

The statement in the document is artfully phrased to represent a diverse range of opinions, set in a context which gives it a misleading spin to confuse the public. Given the anti-evolutionary tone of the introductory paragraphs, a layperson reading the piece about the alleged scientific dissent, might assume that the signatories objected to evolution itself, rather than to the universality of natural selection as its mechanism. Yes, there is healthy scientific debate about the role natural selection plays in evolution. But arguments within the scientific community about how evolution occurs should not be confused with arguments, conspicuously absent from the scientific community, about whether evolution occurred.

Few of the signatories were from biological subfields associated with organismic and population-level biology — the divisions of biology most closely associated with the study of evolution. None was recognizable as a prominent contributor to the scientific literature debating the role of natural selection in evolution.

NCSE (National Center for Science Education) contacted a sample of the signatories and asked them specific questions about their attitudes concerning evolution, namely whether or not they accepted "evidence for common ancestry, meaning that different species today shared common ancestors in the past," and whether or not they were convinced "that humans and chimps both share a common ancestor." One signatory responded that "the definition of species is very troublesome," he added that "I certainly do accept that SOME (perhaps most) modern species shared at least a recent common ancestor." On the question of whether chimps and humans share a common ancestor, he said, "I believe the genetic evidence is overwhelming for the morphology." Another signatory has elsewhere written, "I am not a creationist and have no reason to doubt common descent."

One should not draw the conclusion from the Discovery Institute's propaganda that there is a growing movement of scientists who doubt evolution. Many of the names on the list are not new to anti-evolutionary activity. It is regrettable that the public is likely to be confused by these advertisements and be misled into thinking that all of these scientists reject evolution, or that there is a groundswell of scientists rejecting evolution. Neither is true.
In their 2010 book Biology and Ideology from Descartes to Dawkins, science and religion scholar Denis Alexander and historian of science Ronald L. Numbers wrote: After more than a decade of effort the Discovery Institute proudly announced in 2007 that it had got some 700 doctoral-level scientists and engineers to sign "A Scientific Dissent from Darwinism." Though the number may strike some observers as rather large, it represented less than 0.023 percent of the world's scientists. On the scientific front of the much ballyhooed "Evolution Wars", the Darwinists were winning handily. The ideological struggle between (methodological) naturalism and supernaturalism continued largely in the fantasies of the faithful and the hyperbole of the press.
Compare that with Project Steve. The statement is unambiguous. Many of the signatories are leaders in the field of Biology.

The question that should be asked is not whether there really is any valid scientific dissent from Darwinism, but why do the promoters of Creationism use misleading and dishonest tactics?
Examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good.
First Epistle to the Church of the Thessalonians
The truth will make you free.
Gospel of John

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