Questioning the Crucifixion

[QED]

I hope it will be possible to have a sensible debate about what will no doubt be a very emotive issue here -- an issue that I genuinely don't understand and one that fills me with curiosity: Why it is that the execution of Jesus is supposed to be such a 'big deal'? After all, people were being strung-up all over the place for their beliefs, crimes or even just for sadistic pleasure. Whole rivers of blood have flown out of unjustified human agony before and after the this one particular event. But the crucifixion of Christ is meant to stand out -- because of what?

Sure he was the son of god (or one third of the trinity if that makes a difference) but he was also supposed to be supernatural, with the ability to perform miracles such as returning to life (I'm thinking PlayStation character here). So in what way was his 'death' a set-back for god, in what way was it a loss to anyone?

Had the Romans actually killed an irreplaceable (or mortal) son of God, then there would have been a genuine sacrifice but as he arose afterwards there doesn't seem to be any net loss hence I'm puzzled by the enormous impact it seems to have on the followers of Christianity. When a mortal loses a son that surely is a tragic and irreplaceable loss (and there are no shortages of these unfortunate events in history) yet none that I can think of have made anything like the same sort of impact. Is it rational then that the Crucifixion should have such an impact or should it, if anything, be regarded as somewhat less consequential given the apparent lack of harm it did to those concerned?

[bernee51]

I hope it will be possible to have a sensible debate about what will no doubt be a very emotive issue here -- an issue that I genuinely don't understand and one that fills me with curiosity: consequential given the apparent lack of harm it did to those concerned?

I too have pondered this...looking back at the whole crucifixion/resurrection myth it can be seen that the general idea trying to be presented is one that is not unique to christianity. It is as if the early christians went with this story in order to 'match' other belief systems that had similar mythic backgrounds.

As an aside, (to paraphrase Bill Hicks), why do christians where crucufixes? Should such an event as the promised 'Second Coming' occur, you'd think the last thing Jesus would want to see would be a crucifix.

[youngborean]

I think you are making a valid point. His death alone is not that significant, more just unfair. It his resurrection, and so being the firstfruits of the resurrection that is the miracle that christians look to.

[Tilia]

I think you are making a valid point. His death alone is not that significant, more just unfair. It his resurrection, and so being the firstfruits of the resurrection that is the miracle that christians look to.

How is the following comment reconciled with that?

'I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified.' (1 Cor 2:2 NIV)

[Nirvana-Eld]

"Sure he was the son of god (or one third of the trinity if that makes a difference) but he was also supposed to be supernatural, with the ability to perform miracles such as returning to life (I'm thinking PlayStation character here)."

Ok I personally am a Catholic and I'm not sure about everyone else out there but the trinity is one entity not three. It is three parts of the same thing that are ultimately inseperable. Jesus said "I and the Father are one." So there's no diffference between them.

But all christians focus on his ressurection and it's believed consequences (i.e. the forgiveness of sins, everlasting life, etc.)

Had the Romans actually killed an irreplaceable (or mortal) son of God, then there would have been a genuine sacrifice but as he arose afterwards there doesn't seem to be any net loss hence I'm puzzled by the enormous impact it seems to have on the followers of Christianity.

In my opinion the sacrifice made is the ridicule, suffering, torture, and death that he went through. Going through the process of dying sounds like a sacrifice to me.

[bernee51]

In my opinion the sacrifice made is the ridicule, suffering, torture, and death that he went through. Going through the process of dying sounds like a sacrifice to me.

Even when it must have been known to him that he would come out the otherside 'unscathed'?

[Sender]

In my opinion the sacrifice made is the ridicule, suffering, torture, and death that he went through. Going through the process of dying sounds like a sacrifice to me.

Even when it must have been known to him that he would come out the otherside 'unscathed'?

He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our inquities, and the Lord laid upon him the inequities of us all. And by his stripes we are healed. Isiah 53 something.

[Tilia]

In my opinion the sacrifice made is the ridicule, suffering, torture, and death that he went through. Going through the process of dying sounds like a sacrifice to me.

Even when it must have been known to him that he would come out the otherside 'unscathed'?

He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our inquities, and the Lord laid upon him the inequities of us all. And by his stripes we are healed. Isiah 53 something.

Iniquities! Inequities too, though. Verse 5.

'He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away.

And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life to death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.' (Isa 53:3-12 NIV ed.)

[Sender]

In my opinion the sacrifice made is the ridicule, suffering, torture, and death that he went through. Going through the process of dying sounds like a sacrifice to me.

Even when it must have been known to him that he would come out the otherside 'unscathed'?

He was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our inquities, and the Lord laid upon him the inequities of us all. And by his stripes we are healed. Isiah 53 something.

Iniquities! Inequities too, though. Verse 5.

One of my favorite passages.

'He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering. Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. By oppression and judgment he was taken away.

And who can speak of his descendants? For he was cut off from the land of the living; for the transgression of my people he was stricken. He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it was the Lord's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand. After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life to death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.' (Isa 53:3-12 NIV ed.)

One of my favorite passages.

[Tilia]

[quote="upnorthfan"

One of my favorite passages.

Me too. It emphasises the whole of 'penal substitutionary atonement', which some who like to call themselves evangelicals have recently attempted to make out is unBiblical.