Knowledge from first principles

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Mithrae
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Knowledge from first principles

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Post by Mithrae »

This is an interesting thought exercise which I think everyone should indulge themselves in at least once in their lives. What do I actually know? What can I reasonably believe? The results may be enlightening. I've tried to do it a couple of times over the past decade and more, and this is something of a magnum opus at my ripe old age of 28, a culmination of views and information slowly gathered since my first reading of Berkeley's Dialogues Between Hylas and Philonous when I was eighteen and very much honed by my time on this forum. Many thanks to the people who in discussion (and usually through disagreement and critiques) have helped me develop them, most notably Ionian Tradition, Ragna, Flail, Jax Agnesson, Haven, EduChris, Playhavoc, Bust Nak, Scourge99 and most recently FaerieStories :)



1> I think, therefore I am
This point is pretty well-known from the philosophy of Rene Descartes of course, though I've heard that the specific phrase cogito ergo sum doesn't actually appear in his work. When I was sixteen, wandering through the grounds of my school it occurred to me that The very act of questioning one's own existence begs the question "What is asking the question?" I didn't realise until some days later that this was merely a different expression of the catchier phrase above. The one thing which is absolutely certain for me, which I cannot even coherently question, is the fact of the thoughts which belong to me.

2> There are things outside my mind
I know that I exist, but what about other stuff? My mind produces all kinds of images of places, people and so on when I'm dreaming, most of which seem perfectly sensible at the time even when they're bizarre in waking memory. So how can I know that there's anything which isn't simply a product of my mind?

The first option is to simply assume it - call it an epistemic axiom, if you choose. Most folk don't ever bother trying to justify this belief, it's just taken for granted. No doubt that's partly because it's so very hard to justify even in part, let alone fully. I'm not a philosopher, but as far as I've yet encountered the only justification I can come up with is this: When I think, when I write or when I remember my dreams and so on, I almost always notice limitations on the speed, scope, depth and creativity of what my mind can do. But as I encounter more and more books, music, films and philosophy throughout my life, there seems to be far more than I could have even imagined previously. And what little I've learned about biology, chemistry, astronomy and physics seems to dwarf even those products of human creativity! This discrepancy between what I consciously recognise as products of my mind and what I encounter without knowing to be a product of my mind seems so vast and insurmountable as to cast serious doubt on any notion that it's all produced by my mind. This is not proof of course; but it's the only justification I can presently imagine for the presumption which we all share, that our senses generally reflect a reality which is not produced by our minds.

3> There are other minds
This is another point we all accept from childhood and is often presumed without much thought. My senses might be indicative of things which aren't from my own mind, but they can't detect any other person's mind at all. I have thoughts, feelings and so on, but I can never see or hear the thoughts or feelings of other people.

Belief in other people's minds is inferred by analogy, from observation of structure and behaviour. For example I'm told that my brother came into existence in a very similar fashion to me, right down to the same hospital and caesarian delivery, and I can see that his body is similar to mine - arms, legs, face and so on. Along with similarities of structure, both during childhood and in recent years of living with him I've seen that his behaviour is often quite similar to mine - complaining of hunger then eating, mentioning tiredness then sleeping, displaying signs of humour, anger and so on. From all of this I conclude that he experiences these things in the same way that I do, that he has a mind even though I cannot see it. I would say this conclusion given points 1 and 2 is more justified than point 2 itself is given only point 1. But it should be noted that while I have fairly good reasons for supposing that my immediate family have minds, it's a bit more of a leap in the dark to suppose that all humans have minds - though naturally I do believe that.

- - - - -

I imagine that these are things which we can all agree on. But how uncertain, or how strong is the justification, even for points 2 and 3? And consequently, how much more uncertainty must attend any additional conclusions building on them? There's a school of thought which suggests that all beliefs should be justified by sufficient evidence, that without sufficient evidence it's best not to believe. I reckon that's a pretty useful principle, though it's worth bearing in mind that both what constitutes evidence and what constitutes sufficient evidence can be more or less arbitrary (and sometimes inconsistently applied) standards.

But with that in mind, it seems to me that many people - theists and non-theists alike - hold to a particularly curious view which as far as I know is neither necessary nor validated by any evidence or justification:

4? Most things outside my mind are not other minds, nor direct products of other minds
The word 'physical' is often used to describe this new type or state of being. We know from <1> that at least one mind exists and that it can produce images of people, places and events in the form of dreams or imagination. As far as I'm aware, <2> can only be justified by the view that my own mind is not creative enough to account for all that I observe. And <3> is our inference from such observations that there are other minds also, a belief which pretty much all of us share. But where does this notion of some things which are neither minds, nor things produced by minds come from?

Once again it must be recognised that my knowledge and experience is quite limited, but as far as I'm aware the only explanation for this belief probably lies rooted in our earliest developments of perception and interpretation as infants. For it seems to me that it cannot be possible to have a concept of 'self' unless and until we have a concept of 'other.' As I explained to FaerieStories recently:
  • My working hypothesis so far is that these distinctions, and ultimately all the most intellectual differences in the theism/atheism discussion are rooted in the fundamental self vs. other dichotomy (love that word). What I mean is that a baby in the womb really cannot have any sense of a world; it has no sight, no taste or smell, little in the way of hearing or touch and no way to contextualise that little it does experience. After birth there'd be something of an explosion of experience so to speak, which I'd guess would be somewhat overwhelming at first, but over the weeks would begin to resolve into some familiar sights, sounds and sensations (such as the mother's face, voice and breasts), and some which change or remain unfamiliar. The development of any kind of reasoning cannot begin until those kinds of differentiations begin, and alongside the recognition that those things are different from each other there can be no sense of 'self' without the recognition that I am different from them.

    In fairness what I've read about developmental psychology could probably be printed on quite a small business card depending on font, but I think the above makes sense :-k Following the recognition that the world is not like me, toddlers in a healthy environment will begin to recognise that parts of the world are like them, most obviously their parents with whom they interact in quite different ways than with chairs, toys and the like - and that is followed by the period in which the child seeks to impose its desires on others, rather than being imposed upon, the idiomatic 'terrible twos.' Now most internet debating veterans of an enquiring disposition will probably be familiar with the ages old problem of other minds: How can we really know that behind that face and in the darkness behind those eyes there are experiences like our own, since we can never see or touch them?

    But what I consider to be an even more interesting conundrum is the question of other types of being, the sense of otherness which must necessarily precede a sense of self, and hence any concept of other 'selves.' Why, to what extent, and how can I know that the world is not like me?
If my guesses there are incorrect, then I must still remain curious about the basis for this notion of things which are neither minds nor produced by minds. But if my guesses are reasonable, this would seem to represent a confused mix of understanding <1> and <2>, with <3> probably creeping into awareness sometime after twelve months of age. While necessary for development, I don't think that this furnishes us with valid argument or evidence for the 'physical' notion which remains so commonplace.

The suggestion could be made (as FaerieStories did in that thread) that things like atoms, rocks, planets and so on can't be minds and can't have experiences like we do because we know what produces such experience (our brains) and these other things don't have it. But while I might infer from behaviour and structure (including presumably brains) that those close to me must have experiences similar to my own, that is obviously a weaker inference in the case of all humans, and weaker still in the case of non-human creatures with brains. I might argue that because a fish has some structural similarities to me, including a brain, and because it shares some behaviours with me, such as eating and reproducing, it probably has experiences in a mind that has at least some commonalities with my own. That's not a very strong argument, but not invalid either.

However it would be invalid to say that because there are obvious differences in structure between myself and a dog, and obvious differences in behaviour, the dog does not have experiences or a mind. We infer the presence of other minds by analogy, but analogy does not work in reverse like that. Thus we can only infer that brains produce or are otherwise associated with minds by increasingly weak inferences from analogy; and while we might be justified in supposing that the mind of a dog or fish is somewhat different from our own, and therefore that any hypothetical mind of a rock or planet would correspondingly be even more different from our own, we can't actually conclude that rocks and planets do not have minds - we can only presume it.

Moreover that's only half of the problem. In practice we do consider it acceptable to presume without justification that atoms, rocks, planets and so on don't have minds, and while that's treading on pretty shaky ground it may be nigh on inavoidable. But we also have no reason for supposing that they aren't produced by minds, like our own dreams or imaginations.

- - - - -

Perhaps most importantly, the idea that the sensory world consists of 'physical' stuff, stuff entirely unlike our minds or their contents, leads to a very difficult and possibly unsolvable problem: Why then do we have minds?

A common religious answer - that minds or 'souls' are a type of thing more or less unlike the world we experience through our senses - is often, and I believe correctly, criticised as being unprovable and unnecessarily complicated. But that's as much a criticism for religious folks' uncritical acceptance of this 'physical' world as their acknowledgement that our experience is something distinct from it.

If we rule that answer out, it seems to me (and this is a question which I've raised numerous times on various threads) that suggesting the development, production or emergence of a mind or subjective experience from 'physical' stuff quite unlike it would be a huge claim, one without parallel as far as I'm aware. It would be the only case I know of in which a whole has properties which are not reducible to the sum of its parts at the molecular level (if not beyond).

What I mean is that while we can't observe another person or creature's thoughts or feelings (because they're subjective experience), it must be the case that the subjective experience is either there or it is not. We presume with some justification that it's there in the case of other humans, with less justification that it's there in the case of fish, and validly or not we generally presume that it's not there in the case of atoms, rocks or planets. But when subjective experience is present in a thing, the capacity to produce or be associated with it must be an objective property of the thing. But as long as we suppose that atoms, molecules and so on themselves do not have subjective experience, the property of the whole (person, animal, brain or whatever) is not reducible to the sum of its parts.

If we look for comparison and contrast at water for example, it might be suggested that its wetness is a non-reducible property. But wetness is merely the manner in which we experience and describe water; it's not an objective property of water itself. We would probably not use the term wetness in description of certain other liquids like molten iron or liquid nitrogen, for example. The objective properties of water are its temperature and consequently fluidity, both of which are reducible; in terms of molecules' energy, and hence the rapidity of their movement (heat), and hence the breaking of their strong inter-molecular bonds from the solid state.

Again with the caveat of my limited knowledge - and I'm certainly open to learning on this point - I have not yet encountered any other example in which a whole is said to have objective properties which can't be reduced to the sum of its molecular parts. Given that, not only do I have no justification or reason to imagine some type of stuff which is neither mind nor product of mind, it seems to me that I have quite a strong reason to consider it unlikely that such a thing exists, or at least that it could provide a basis for minds.

--

So then, what is the most reasonable conclusion?

Obviously what I know is extremely limited by my own perspective, cultural context, experience and learning. I can't really claim any high degree of certainty about the minds of animals or folk I've never met, let alone the nature of reality itself!

But it seems clear to me that pending some kind of justification for an alternative view, it is most reasonable to suppose that the nature of reality consists of minds and their products; and given the general consistency of human observations across the globe and the centuries, we're probably talking about mind/s whose scope, depth and creativity far exceeds our own!

Is this the more reasonable view?
Or is there some justification - any justification - to suppose that an alternative is possible?

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Re: Knowledge from first principles

Post #2

Post by AquinasD »

Mithrae wrote:Perhaps most importantly, the idea that the sensory world consists of 'physical' stuff, stuff entirely unlike our minds or their contents, leads to a very difficult and possibly unsolvable problem: Why then do we have minds?
You're going backwards. Here you have given lengthy arguments showing that our knowledge of the world outside our mind is mysterious and nigh unknowable, but then you act as if our own mind is somehow strange and unknowable. I am a mind, that's obvious and known by direct apperception, unlike everything else I can known, which I can merely perceive. A better question is: Why then is there more than my mind?
Again with the caveat of my limited knowledge - and I'm certainly open to learning on this point - I have not yet encountered any other example in which a whole is said to have objective properties which can't be reduced to the sum of its molecular parts.
Well you're thinking of just one example of a kind of things that are not reducible to matter (though there are of course other kinds of things that are also irreducible). The mind is a form, and it is forms that inform matter to provide the structure, much like words are the expression of meaning. Every form of a thing is irreducible merely to the matter present, because then it would cease to be the kind of thing it is. Life is a form, vegetation is a form, even being a stone is a form. Each of these forms is irreducible to matter. Why? Because matter is nothing by itself. At some point, you need to introduce an "elementary material particle," but when you get that low, you have to ask why it has that form. It should then become clear that there is nothing in the matter that provides that form, because you will have to introduce form in order to explain why it exemplifies the properties it does, such as that "To be this elementary particle is to act towards such and such a thing." What directs a thing to its end? Itself. We don't recognize such a potential of matter, but we do of form. And minds are just the most obvious example of that, seeing as we happen to apperceive ourselves as intentional beings, rather than the intentional states of everything else being locked up behind what we sense.

This actually helps to provide an answer to my original question above, i.e. Why is there more than my mind? There is more than my mind in order that there is something for my mind to be instantiated in and that there is something to initiate my minding about the world I'm in.

Obviously a different path from first principles, but it just seems to me so strange that people keep getting hung up on the weirdness of mind, when its the most obviously existing kind of thing that there can be to a mind!
For a truly religious man nothing is tragic.
~Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Re: Knowledge from first principles

Post #3

Post by bernee51 »

A few thoughts and comments.
Mithrae wrote: This is an interesting thought exercise which I think everyone should indulge themselves in at least once in their lives. What do I actually know? What can I reasonably believe?
Good questions.

As I have stated elsewhere, all I can actually know (AFAIK) is that we are biological creatures who have evolved a level of consciousness that facilitates self-awareness. Not only do we KNOW, but we KNOW that we KNOW. As such all else that we believe " all our thoughts, ideas, plans etc - al those things that come together to make up our sense of selfhood - are, and can only be, mental constructs.

Mithrae wrote: 1> I think, therefore I am
This point is pretty well-known from the philosophy of Rene Descartes of course, though I've heard that the specific phrase cogito ergo sum doesn't actually appear in his work. When I was sixteen, wandering through the grounds of my school it occurred to me that The very act of questioning one's own existence begs the question "What is asking the question?" I didn't realise until some days later that this was merely a different expression of the catchier phrase above. The one thing which is absolutely certain for me, which I cannot even coherently question, is the fact of the thoughts which belong to me.
The fundamental question is Who am I?

Personally I think Descartes got it almost rightit is a truth but it is partial.

The statement, as see it, is I am (awareness), therefore I think, I think therefore I (a manifestation on awareness " the small I) I am.

Without awareness we would not KNOW we exist. Awareness is the same in you as it is in me, as it was in our ancestors back to the evolution of self-awareness. Awareness is the screen on which the movies of our individual lives are projected.
Mithrae wrote: 2> There are things outside my mind
I know that I exist, but what about other stuff? My mind produces all kinds of images of places, people and so on when I'm dreaming, most of which seem perfectly sensible at the time even when they're bizarre in waking memory. So how can I know that there's anything which isn't simply a product of my mind?
Depends on how things are percieved.

Take the view of atoms and molecules. As part of the physiosphere we are nothing but atoms and molecules " stardust as Sagan eloquently stated. At that level of perception we are no different from, in fact integral to and part of, all other elements in the universe. This sphere is a holon (cf Koestler) " a whole part- a whole in and of itself but part of (or at least with the possibility of being a part of) a larger whole

Now these elements have arranged themselves, at least on this planet, to form the next holon - a biosphere. We, as living organisms, are very much part of the biosphere. While we live we cannot be separated from it, or it from us. The biosphere, as a holon, is independent from, but reliant upon the lower holon of the physiosphere. Changes in lower holons have a direct effect on those which depend upon it.

And then comes the noosphere
Mithrae wrote: 3> There are other minds
This is another point we all accept from childhood and is often presumed without much thought. My senses might be indicative of things which aren't from my own mind, but they can't detect any other person's mind at all. I have thoughts, feelings and so on, but I can never see or hear the thoughts or feelings of other people.
What are minds? Are they anything more than the flow of thoughts? Where do thoughts exist? The noosphere, the sphere of human thought, has evolved with the emergence of self-reflective awareness " and it continues to become more complex
So we do, to some extent, see the thoughts and feelings of other people. Compare the change in the depth of this sphere from that of our early ancestors where knowledge was limited to the tribal to the access our minds have to othersthis conversation for example.

Worldviews, for example, exist in the noosphere. The basic element, the cell, of a worldview is agreement, the genetic material of which is a meme. Of course none of this exists in isolation. Each element has subjective and inter-subjective (I/we) components and objective and inter-objective (it/its) components.

Consciousness as it manifests on awareness " and reflects in the change to community across these components - continues to evolve.

And then there is the spiritoshere, as I like to call it. Spirit is how the aspects of the three lower spheres are applied " the structure and process of existence. As self-aware creatures spanning all three lower holons we inform and are informed by spirit.
Mithrae wrote: 4? Most things outside my mind are not other minds, nor direct products of other minds
The word 'physical' is often used to describe this new type or state of being. We know from <1> that at least one mind exists and that it can produce images of people, places and events in the form of dreams or imagination. As far as I'm aware, <2> can only be justified by the view that my own mind is not creative enough to account for all that I observe. And <3> is our inference from such observations that there are other minds also, a belief which pretty much all of us share. But where does this notion of some things which are neither minds, nor things produced by minds come from?
I think these questions are addressed above.

Mithrae wrote: Once again it must be recognised that my knowledge and experience is quite limited, but as far as I'm aware the only explanation for this belief probably lies rooted in our earliest developments of perception and interpretation as infants. For it seems to me that it cannot be possible to have a concept of 'self' unless and until we have a concept of 'other.'
Until self-awareness evolved there wasnt, and could not be, a concept of other. The evolution of self-awareness of brought with it the concept of other, including the Great Other, the god concept.[/quote]

Mithrae wrote:
  • My working hypothesis so far is that these distinctions, and ultimately all the most intellectual differences in the theism/atheism discussion are rooted in the fundamental self vs. other dichotomy (love that word).
Perhaps when seen for what it is, a false dichotomy, the problem can resolve. There is no fundamental difference between self and other, both are illusions, constructs on awareness. What actually exists is awareness and that awareness is the only reality.
Mithrae wrote: What I mean is that a baby in the womb really cannot have any sense of a world; it has no sight, no taste or smell, little in the way of hearing or touch and no way to contextualise that little it does experience. After birth there'd be something of an explosion of experience so to speak, which I'd guess would be somewhat overwhelming at first, but over the weeks would begin to resolve into some familiar sights, sounds and sensations (such as the mother's face, voice and breasts), and some which change or remain unfamiliar. The development of any kind of reasoning cannot begin until those kinds of differentiations begin, and alongside the recognition that those things are different from each other there can be no sense of 'self' without the recognition that I am different from them.
Interestingly it would appear that the evolution of society/culture has undergone the very development (or evolution) of consciousness we see in our offspring - from archaic, through magic, mythic, pluralistic and so on. At one stage culture itself was as a newborn.

Where many fall down is via what could be called the Flintstone Fallacy. We attribute contemporary levels of conscious awareness to ancient cultures. This can have shortcomings " as in when contemporary thought is applied to the religions musings of ancient cultures. It is a mistake to assume they were just like us.
Mithrae wrote: But what I consider to be an even more interesting conundrum is the question of other types of being, the sense of otherness which must necessarily precede a sense of self, and hence any concept of other 'selves.' Why, to what extent, and how can I know that the world is not like me?[/list]
The world, as you perceive it, is a reflection of you. It is a construct which fits with your evolving, constantly emerging expectations.
Mithrae wrote: Moreover that's only half of the problem. In practice we do consider it acceptable to presume without justification that atoms, rocks, planets and so on don't have minds, and while that's treading on pretty shaky ground it may be nigh on inavoidable. But we also have no reason for supposing that they aren't produced by minds, like our own dreams or imaginations.
To an ancient a tree may have been a spirit, to a woodsman something to harvest, to a greenie a symbol of ecological preservation.

Or to put it another way, to her lover a beautiful girl is an attraction, to an ascetic a distraction and to a wolf a good meal.
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Re: Knowledge from first principles

Post #4

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Mithrae wrote: Is this the more reasonable view?
Or is there some justification - any justification - to suppose that an alternative is possible?
Possibly there is. Consider as an alternative this thing called consciousness being the product of evolution and essentially a tool to continue propagation of the genes that lead to presence of that consciousness. It appears that this genetically derived consciousness ought to have exactly the same characteristics we observe.
1> I think, therefore I am.
The individual is the carrier of the genes and the tool by which they are propagated. Survival of the individual is an obvious sine qua non. It is absolutely essential that there be no doubt whatsoever that this individual exists as a coherent thing to ensure immediate action to preserve that individual as a thing in the event of a life (or well-being) threatening situation. The tendency to ever doubt one's reality would be strongly suppressed.
2> There are things outside my mind
Self-preservation (and preservation of ones genes) requires recognizing that there is a real world with real consequences for wrong choices.
3> There are other minds
Other minds behave in a more complex manner and need to be dealt with in different ways than brute nature. For social species such as ourselves, the survival of whose genes depends both on personal survival and on the well-being of ones community, not just recognition but time-binding cooperation with others is important.

If such a thing were to arise from the right genetic combinations, it would be very successful and self propagating. It would appear that various animals have something resembling consciousness as we know it, if not as introspectively sophisticated as our own. We inherited not only the mammalian brain but the socially oriented primate one plus a mutation that doubled the number of layers in our neo-cortex, astronomically increasing the connection potential. In those circumstances an advanced sense of self sounds inevitable on a purely evolutionary basis.

Is this necessarily so? Who knows? Is it a possible alternative? Sure. Throw in the seemingly total dependence of mental states on the presence of a physical substrate and it seems more than merely possible.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #5

Post by Mithrae »

Thanks for the responses folks, and my apologies for the delayed reply. Seems oft-times when I put a lot of effort into a post I spend the next few days alternating between reviewing all my shortcomings of expression and reasoning and simply wanting to veg out a bit :lol:
AquinasD wrote:
Mithrae wrote:Perhaps most importantly, the idea that the sensory world consists of 'physical' stuff, stuff entirely unlike our minds or their contents, leads to a very difficult and possibly unsolvable problem: Why then do we have minds?
You're going backwards. Here you have given lengthy arguments showing that our knowledge of the world outside our mind is mysterious and nigh unknowable, but then you act as if our own mind is somehow strange and unknowable. I am a mind, that's obvious and known by direct apperception, unlike everything else I can known, which I can merely perceive. A better question is: Why then is there more than my mind?
I think you're misunderstanding me :no:
The main question I'm asking is similar to yours: What makes me think there's anything besides minds and their products?

If we suppose there's something different from and prior to mental stuff - usually called 'physical' - then the existence of minds is indeed a puzzle. Whereas life itself can be described in mechanical terms, we generally presume that minds are not even a property of all life; they're a rare anomaly, unique to this planet as far as we know, and perhaps the only thing not describable in terms of the properties of the sum of all parts. Because of this (and because I simply see no valid reason to imagine something/s other than mental stuff), it seems to me that idealism is the more reasonable way of imagining reality.
AquinasD wrote:
Again with the caveat of my limited knowledge - and I'm certainly open to learning on this point - I have not yet encountered any other example in which a whole is said to have objective properties which can't be reduced to the sum of its molecular parts.
Well you're thinking of just one example of a kind of things that are not reducible to matter (though there are of course other kinds of things that are also irreducible). The mind is a form, and it is forms that inform matter to provide the structure, much like words are the expression of meaning. Every form of a thing is irreducible merely to the matter present, because then it would cease to be the kind of thing it is. Life is a form, vegetation is a form, even being a stone is a form. Each of these forms is irreducible to matter. Because matter is nothing by itself. At some point, you need to introduce an "elementary material particle," but when you get that low, you have to ask why it has that form. It should then become clear that there is nothing in the matter that provides that form, because you will have to introduce form in order to explain why it exemplifies the properties it does, such as that "To be this elementary particle is to act towards such and such a thing." What directs a thing to its end? Itself.
The structure of water or stones or DNA are a result of the manner in which their atoms and molecules bond under the given circumstances. The 'kind of thing something is' isn't a new property or thing, it's simply the sum of all the parts and their interactions, and the words we give to the whole thing are merely that; the way we refer to and think of them. The question of why those atoms and molecules (or as you've noted, their even more elementary components) have the properties they do is certainly intriguing and not so readily explained, but it wouldn't mean that we should invoke irreducible 'forms' for all macro-level things also. Perhaps I'm not understanding you properly though ;)

-----------
bernee51 wrote:
Mithrae wrote:This is an interesting thought exercise which I think everyone should indulge themselves in at least once in their lives. What do I actually know? What can I reasonably believe?
Good questions.

As I have stated elsewhere, all I can actually know (AFAIK) is that we are biological creatures who have evolved a level of consciousness that facilitates self-awareness. Not only do we KNOW, but we KNOW that we KNOW. As such all else that we believe " all our thoughts, ideas, plans etc - al those things that come together to make up our sense of selfhood - are, and can only be, mental constructs.
I'm not sure I understand. It looks like you're suggesting there that self-awareness and mental constructs are merely a product of biological evolution, and 'less real' than the (different) stuff which produced them and on which they depend.

But later you've said:
There is no fundamental difference between self and other, both are illusions, constructs on awareness. What actually exists is awareness and that awareness is the only reality.

There seems to be a contradiction there between awareness as a product of physio- and biospheres, and awareness as the only reality.
bernee51 wrote:
Mithrae wrote:2> There are things outside my mind
I know that I exist, but what about other stuff? My mind produces all kinds of images of places, people and so on when I'm dreaming, most of which seem perfectly sensible at the time even when they're bizarre in waking memory. So how can I know that there's anything which isn't simply a product of my mind?
Depends on how things are percieved.

Take the view of atoms and molecules. As part of the physiosphere we are nothing but atoms and molecules " stardust as Sagan eloquently stated. At that level of perception we are no different from, in fact integral to and part of, all other elements in the universe. This sphere is a holon (cf Koestler) " a whole part- a whole in and of itself but part of (or at least with the possibility of being a part of) a larger whole

Now these elements have arranged themselves, at least on this planet, to form the next holon - a biosphere. We, as living organisms, are very much part of the biosphere. While we live we cannot be separated from it, or it from us. The biosphere, as a holon, is independent from, but reliant upon the lower holon of the physiosphere. Changes in lower holons have a direct effect on those which depend upon it.

And then comes the noosphere
Mithrae wrote:3> There are other minds
This is another point we all accept from childhood and is often presumed without much thought. My senses might be indicative of things which aren't from my own mind, but they can't detect any other person's mind at all. I have thoughts, feelings and so on, but I can never see or hear the thoughts or feelings of other people.
What are minds? Are they anything more than the flow of thoughts? Where do thoughts exist? The noosphere, the sphere of human thought, has evolved with the emergence of self-reflective awareness " and it continues to become more complex
So we do, to some extent, see the thoughts and feelings of other people. Compare the change in the depth of this sphere from that of our early ancestors where knowledge was limited to the tribal to the access our minds have to othersthis conversation for example.

Worldviews, for example, exist in the noosphere. The basic element, the cell, of a worldview is agreement, the genetic material of which is a meme. Of course none of this exists in isolation. Each element has subjective and inter-subjective (I/we) components and objective and inter-objective (it/its) components.

Consciousness as it manifests on awareness " and reflects in the change to community across these components - continues to evolve.
I like this way of thinking about it, as I've mentioned before. It makes sense to speak of interactions between parts of the self-aware sphere of being just as the parts of the living sphere interact, as do parts of the non-living sphere. But what makes you think that non-living stuff, the physiosphere, is the lowest holon? It seems to me that these other distinctions - conceptually useful though they may be - are somewhat arbitrary, possibly vague and definitely based on our perspective; the living/non-living distinction could be viewed in terms of complex mechanical processes (or lack thereof), and even self-awareness varies according to individual, culture (as you've mentioned) and potentially species.

So can we conclude that self-awareness or the noosphere is something fundamentally new and different? Or that the biosphere is? Or are they more along the lines of gradations in how we, from our perspective, view and categorise reality? And if the latter, if our characteristics which we describe as 'physical' and biological are simply more refined (or more us-like) ways of organising the same basic stuff, surely the same would be true of consciousness or self-awareness also?

Interesting food for thought in your post, but I'm not sure how well I understand what you're getting at so I'll look forward to some further comments :)

------------------
ThatGirlAgain wrote:
Mithrae wrote:Is this the more reasonable view?
Or is there some justification - any justification - to suppose that an alternative is possible?
Possibly there is. Consider as an alternative this thing called consciousness being the product of evolution and essentially a tool to continue propagation of the genes that lead to presence of that consciousness. It appears that this genetically derived consciousness ought to have exactly the same characteristics we observe.
1> I think, therefore I am.
The individual is the carrier of the genes and the tool by which they are propagated. Survival of the individual is an obvious sine qua non. It is absolutely essential that there be no doubt whatsoever that this individual exists as a coherent thing to ensure immediate action to preserve that individual as a thing in the event of a life (or well-being) threatening situation. The tendency to ever doubt one's reality would be strongly suppressed.
2> There are things outside my mind
Self-preservation (and preservation of ones genes) requires recognizing that there is a real world with real consequences for wrong choices.
3> There are other minds
Other minds behave in a more complex manner and need to be dealt with in different ways than brute nature. For social species such as ourselves, the survival of whose genes depends both on personal survival and on the well-being of ones community, not just recognition but time-binding cooperation with others is important.
Bodily functions like heartbeat, respiration, digestion, reflexive reactions to pain or danger and so on all occur without a need for consciousness - reliable, complex, quick and responsive. So where's the need or benefit from consciousness? The most successful types of species - bacteria, plants, insects and the like - are not noted for the development of their minds. In fact developing any kind of ego would probably be a distinct drawback for ant or bee colonies.

Indeed in any species, what immediate pay-off could there be from consciousness that couldn't be matched (if not exceeded) by its absense? Your comments on 3 require that there already be consciousness in the species (or others); on 2, it should be apparent that organisms' interaction with the 'real world' long preceeded consciousness; and on 1, there could be no self-doubt without a sense of self. Our technological developments illustrate long-term potential from consciousness and intelligence, but while some proposed short-term gains might be coherent just-so stories to explain the fact of consciousness, I wonder if they would be credible stand-alone theories for its plausibility?
ThatGirlAgain wrote:If such a thing were to arise from the right genetic combinations, it would be very successful and self propagating. It would appear that various animals have something resembling consciousness as we know it, if not as introspectively sophisticated as our own. We inherited not only the mammalian brain but the socially oriented primate one plus a mutation that doubled the number of layers in our neo-cortex, astronomically increasing the connection potential. In those circumstances an advanced sense of self sounds inevitable on a purely evolutionary basis.

Is this necessarily so? Who knows? Is it a possible alternative? Sure. Throw in the seemingly total dependence of mental states on the presence of a physical substrate and it seems more than merely possible.
You mean the dependence of human subjective states on the presence of the larger mental substrate? Unless mental states are a different type of thing than brains, bodies and so on, then the difference is purely one of perspective; what I/we experience as subjects, and what we don't. Distinguishing between mental and physical as you're doing seems to be either meaningless - what is one, except a contrast of the other? - or an unfortunate relic of dualism.

But whereas we know that we have subjective experience, and we know that we can produce new images, thoughts and so on in our minds, we don't know that the rest of the world is substantially different. Knowing that there is consciousness, it's one thing to offer hypothetical retrospective justifications for the plausibility of its evolution - obviously our intelligence had to evolve somehow - but that doesn't show that the stuff from which it evolved was fundamentally different (non-mental or 'physical') in the first place, and nor does it show that mental phenomena could develop from 'physical' stuff at all (we'd be merely presuming it must have happened).

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Post #6

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Mithrae wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:
Mithrae wrote:Is this the more reasonable view?
Or is there some justification - any justification - to suppose that an alternative is possible?
Possibly there is. Consider as an alternative this thing called consciousness being the product of evolution and essentially a tool to continue propagation of the genes that lead to presence of that consciousness. It appears that this genetically derived consciousness ought to have exactly the same characteristics we observe.
1> I think, therefore I am.
The individual is the carrier of the genes and the tool by which they are propagated. Survival of the individual is an obvious sine qua non. It is absolutely essential that there be no doubt whatsoever that this individual exists as a coherent thing to ensure immediate action to preserve that individual as a thing in the event of a life (or well-being) threatening situation. The tendency to ever doubt one's reality would be strongly suppressed.
2> There are things outside my mind
Self-preservation (and preservation of ones genes) requires recognizing that there is a real world with real consequences for wrong choices.
3> There are other minds
Other minds behave in a more complex manner and need to be dealt with in different ways than brute nature. For social species such as ourselves, the survival of whose genes depends both on personal survival and on the well-being of ones community, not just recognition but time-binding cooperation with others is important.
Bodily functions like heartbeat, respiration, digestion, reflexive reactions to pain or danger and so on all occur without a need for consciousness - reliable, complex, quick and responsive. So where's the need or benefit from consciousness? The most successful types of species - bacteria, plants, insects and the like - are not noted for the development of their minds. In fact developing any kind of ego would probably be a distinct drawback for ant or bee colonies.

Indeed in any species, what immediate pay-off could there be from consciousness that couldn't be matched (if not exceeded) by its absense? Your comments on 3 require that there already be consciousness in the species (or others); on 2, it should be apparent that organisms' interaction with the 'real world' long preceeded consciousness; and on 1, there could be no self-doubt without a sense of self. Our technological developments illustrate long-term potential from consciousness and intelligence, but while some proposed short-term gains might be coherent just-so stories to explain the fact of consciousness, I wonder if they would be credible stand-alone theories for its plausibility?
The reproductive success of bacteria etc. is due to enormous profligacy. Ants, bees and other social insects have found their own alternative, the sharing of precise information about food sources in the environment. In the world of evolution there is more than one way to de-fur a feline.

Concerning doubt: I used the word doubt to demonstrate the reason that a conscious mind that believes unshakably in its own existence will have a survival advantage over one that might lapse in that belief. Creatures that do not have a highly coherent consciousness like us do not doubt. They do not have the strong belief in the first place. No need to have consciousness first. Consciousness evolves using the genetically elaborated pre-existing brain structures. The human neo-cortex is very much like most other mammals, just a lot bigger.

The essence of consciousness is the ongoing review of sensory input, present and past, as abstracted and correlated with similar inputs and their results, with complex interlinking of current input and older memory items. In a nutshell, consciousness is active memory. This allows the coherent review of large amounts of information and the selection of appropriate material to bring to the foreground. It is this ongoing flow of information and the resulting decisions that constitutes consciousness.

There are two things to note about consciousness.

One, it is all mixed up with other unconscious brain functions. One major example is the activity of the amygdala, which gets sensory input a tiny fraction of a second before the neo-cortex and checks for unusual circumstances. This allows unthinking reactions in potentially life-threatening circumstances. The amygdala is a very old part of the brain, as might be expected. There are lots more things going on under the covers that come out into consciousness only later. Brain scans show that emotions arise in the brain before they become conscious feelings. Even decisions can be seen in brain scans before the individual is aware of having made a decision. What we call consciousness is the tip of a neurological iceberg.

Two, the information flowing through the lens of consciousness is far less precise that we like to think it is. This is exactly where its power comes from. We can correlate things that are not exactly the same but only similar. This allows coming up with an abstraction " a concept " that relates them and facilitates decision making. But those abstractions are themselves rather imprecise, as they should be to allow experience based changes. The human brain is good enough at abstractions to imagine correlating those abstractions with external markers. And so we use language, spoken and written. We use mathematics. We use pictures and symbols to represent whole classes of correlated information. Language, and symbols representing ideological gestalts are great ways of facilitating group activities, a big plus for socially dependent creatures such as ourselves.

The payoff for consciousness is the combination of time-binding and communal-binding. We can make decisions based on subtle correlations not available to the knee-jerk brain. We can share correlations with others to facilitate the greater efficiency of group efforts. I fail to see how these things " enormously important factors in the success of the human species " are no better or even worse than the alternative knee-jerk brain.

Some relevant sources:

In Search of Memory (Nobel Laureate Eric Kandel)
The works of Antonio Damasio
The works of Joseph LeDoux
On Intelligence

But you seem to have already dismissed all evidence sight unseen as just-so stories.
Mithrae wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:If such a thing were to arise from the right genetic combinations, it would be very successful and self propagating. It would appear that various animals have something resembling consciousness as we know it, if not as introspectively sophisticated as our own. We inherited not only the mammalian brain but the socially oriented primate one plus a mutation that doubled the number of layers in our neo-cortex, astronomically increasing the connection potential. In those circumstances an advanced sense of self sounds inevitable on a purely evolutionary basis.

Is this necessarily so? Who knows? Is it a possible alternative? Sure. Throw in the seemingly total dependence of mental states on the presence of a physical substrate and it seems more than merely possible.
You mean the dependence of human subjective states on the presence of the larger mental substrate? Unless mental states are a different type of thing than brains, bodies and so on, then the difference is purely one of perspective; what I/we experience as subjects, and what we don't. Distinguishing between mental and physical as you're doing seems to be either meaningless - what is one, except a contrast of the other? - or an unfortunate relic of dualism.

But whereas we know that we have subjective experience, and we know that we can produce new images, thoughts and so on in our minds, we don't know that the rest of the world is substantially different. Knowing that there is consciousness, it's one thing to offer hypothetical retrospective justifications for the plausibility of its evolution - obviously our intelligence had to evolve somehow - but that doesn't show that the stuff from which it evolved was fundamentally different (non-mental or 'physical') in the first place, and nor does it show that mental phenomena could develop from 'physical' stuff at all (we'd be merely presuming it must have happened).
I am not distinguishing between mental and physical. Describing certain brain operations as mental is a form of shorthand far more convenient than trying to describe every electro-chemical process. Weather is another complex phenomenon best described in macro terms. Yet there is no hurricane distinct from the activities of the air and water molecules involved. There is no mind apart from the physical substrate of the brain. I can talk about hurricanes with making them something metaphysical.

And we know perfectly well that the world at large is non-mental. If you are hit in the head by a falling tree, it does not matter in the slightest if anyone knew about the tree or its defects beforehand. The tree is physical and entirely separate from any mental process. It has real undeniable consequences based entirely on physical laws and no amount of thinking can make the tree behave otherwise without some intervening physical instrumentality. And if that tree destroys your brain, your mental life has ceased to exist. If you disagree, show me evidence of mental life continuing when the underlying physical substrate of the brain has been destroyed.
Dogmatism and skepticism are both, in a sense, absolute philosophies; one is certain of knowing, the other of not knowing. What philosophy should dissipate is certainty, whether of knowledge or ignorance.
- Bertrand Russell

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Post #7

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Mithrae wrote:I think you're misunderstanding me :no:
The main question I'm asking is similar to yours: What makes me think there's anything besides minds and their products?

If we suppose there's something different from and prior to mental stuff - usually called 'physical' - then the existence of minds is indeed a puzzle. Whereas life itself can be described in mechanical terms, we generally presume that minds are not even a property of all life; they're a rare anomaly, unique to this planet as far as we know, and perhaps the only thing not describable in terms of the properties of the sum of all parts. Because of this (and because I simply see no valid reason to imagine something/s other than mental stuff), it seems to me that idealism is the more reasonable way of imagining reality.
And perhaps it is, at least compared to materialism.
The structure of water or stones or DNA are a result of the manner in which their atoms and molecules bond under the given circumstances. The 'kind of thing something is' isn't a new property or thing, it's simply the sum of all the parts and their interactions, and the words we give to the whole thing are merely that; the way we refer to and think of them. The question of why those atoms and molecules (or as you've noted, their even more elementary components) have the properties they do is certainly intriguing and not so readily explained, but it wouldn't mean that we should invoke irreducible 'forms' for all macro-level things also. Perhaps I'm not understanding you properly though ;)
"The sum of its parts" fails to explain even very simple things, such as why gold as the macroscopic properties it does. I can point to mind as an example of something that is a form irreducible to "the sum of its parts," but then I can also point to animation (i.e. animal life) and (vegetative) life.

I'm of the view that each thing is composed of matter and form, and while sometimes it is clear how one form is generated from another, that a particular form is capable of actualizing another must be explained by that present form, rather than just the matter. Matter only serves to individuate. Suppose we were to go "all the way down" to elementary particles, and you would be forced to explain the properties of these things in reference to their intrinsic form. It is typical to try and think of matter as "some particular thing," but if it's supposed to be the individuating principle between things (i.e. why, for two forms that are identical, they can be separate, such as two cats), then that "some particular thing" must something else that informs the matter to its end.
For a truly religious man nothing is tragic.
~Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Post #8

Post by bernee51 »

Mithrae wrote:
bernee51 wrote:
Mithrae wrote:This is an interesting thought exercise which I think everyone should indulge themselves in at least once in their lives. What do I actually know? What can I reasonably believe?
Good questions.

As I have stated elsewhere, all I can actually know (AFAIK) is that we are biological creatures who have evolved a level of consciousness that facilitates self-awareness. Not only do we KNOW, but we KNOW that we KNOW. As such all else that we believe " all our thoughts, ideas, plans etc - al those things that come together to make up our sense of selfhood - are, and can only be, mental constructs.
I'm not sure I understand. It looks like you're suggesting there that self-awareness and mental constructs are merely a product of biological evolution, and 'less real' than the (different) stuff which produced them and on which they depend.
No less real...the reality of 'stuff' in the noosphere, however, depends on the individuals perception and 'agreements' with others.

Mithrae wrote: But later you've said:
There is no fundamental difference between self and other, both are illusions, constructs on awareness. What actually exists is awareness and that awareness is the only reality.

There seems to be a contradiction there between awareness as a product of physio- and biospheres, and awareness as the only reality.
The only reality when viewed from the noosphere.

Mithrae wrote:
bernee51 wrote:
Mithrae wrote:2> There are things outside my mind
I know that I exist, but what about other stuff? My mind produces all kinds of images of places, people and so on when I'm dreaming, most of which seem perfectly sensible at the time even when they're bizarre in waking memory. So how can I know that there's anything which isn't simply a product of my mind?
Depends on how things are percieved.

Take the view of atoms and molecules. As part of the physiosphere we are nothing but atoms and molecules " stardust as Sagan eloquently stated. At that level of perception we are no different from, in fact integral to and part of, all other elements in the universe. This sphere is a holon (cf Koestler) " a whole part- a whole in and of itself but part of (or at least with the possibility of being a part of) a larger whole

Now these elements have arranged themselves, at least on this planet, to form the next holon - a biosphere. We, as living organisms, are very much part of the biosphere. While we live we cannot be separated from it, or it from us. The biosphere, as a holon, is independent from, but reliant upon the lower holon of the physiosphere. Changes in lower holons have a direct effect on those which depend upon it.

And then comes the noosphere
Mithrae wrote:3> There are other minds
This is another point we all accept from childhood and is often presumed without much thought. My senses might be indicative of things which aren't from my own mind, but they can't detect any other person's mind at all. I have thoughts, feelings and so on, but I can never see or hear the thoughts or feelings of other people.
What are minds? Are they anything more than the flow of thoughts? Where do thoughts exist? The noosphere, the sphere of human thought, has evolved with the emergence of self-reflective awareness " and it continues to become more complex
So we do, to some extent, see the thoughts and feelings of other people. Compare the change in the depth of this sphere from that of our early ancestors where knowledge was limited to the tribal to the access our minds have to othersthis conversation for example.

Worldviews, for example, exist in the noosphere. The basic element, the cell, of a worldview is agreement, the genetic material of which is a meme. Of course none of this exists in isolation. Each element has subjective and inter-subjective (I/we) components and objective and inter-objective (it/its) components.

Consciousness as it manifests on awareness " and reflects in the change to community across these components - continues to evolve.
I like this way of thinking about it, as I've mentioned before. It makes sense to speak of interactions between parts of the self-aware sphere of being just as the parts of the living sphere interact, as do parts of the non-living sphere. But what makes you think that non-living stuff, the physiosphere, is the lowest holon?
The order of evolution...'big bang', sub-atomic particles coalesce and complixify, inot atoms, then molecules, then collections of molecules - which in turn complexify. The physioshere. Things could have stayed like that...and perhaps for the vast majority of the universe that is exactly how they continue. However, in this part of the physioshere there was a further coalescence and complexification and the bioshpere emerged...and so on.
Mithrae wrote:
It seems to me that these other distinctions - conceptually useful though they may be - are somewhat arbitrary, possibly vague and definitely based on our perspective; the living/non-living distinction could be viewed in terms of complex mechanical processes (or lack thereof), and even self-awareness varies according to individual, culture (as you've mentioned) and potentially species.
Indeed, but they are not arbitrary...it describes the universe as we see it and as the current theory of cosmic evolution would describe it.

Mithrae wrote:
So can we conclude that self-awareness or the noosphere is something fundamentally new and different? Or that the biosphere is? Or are they more along the lines of gradations in how we, from our perspective, view and categorise reality?

No they are emergent 'complexifications' (to use Teilhard de Chardin's terminology). Until the emergence of the noosphere there was no way for them to be described.

Mithrae wrote:
And if the latter, if our characteristics which we describe as 'physical' and biological are simply more refined (or more us-like) ways of organising the same basic stuff, surely the same would be true of consciousness or self-awareness also?
Sorry, don't quite follow you here.

I
"Whatever you are totally ignorant of, assert to be the explanation of everything else"

William James quoting Dr. Hodgson

"When I see I am nothing, that is wisdom. When I see I am everything, that is love. My life is a movement between these two."

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Post #9

Post by Mithrae »

ThatGirlAgain wrote:
Mithrae wrote:
ThatGirlAgain wrote:
Mithrae wrote:Is [that the nature of reality consists of minds and their products] the more reasonable view?
Or is there some justification - any justification - to suppose that an alternative is possible?
Possibly there is. Consider as an alternative this thing called consciousness being the product of evolution and essentially a tool to continue propagation of the genes that lead to presence of that consciousness. It appears that this genetically derived consciousness ought to have exactly the same characteristics we observe. . . .
Bodily functions like heartbeat, respiration, digestion, reflexive reactions to pain or danger and so on all occur without a need for consciousness - reliable, complex, quick and responsive. So where's the need or benefit from consciousness? The most successful types of species - bacteria, plants, insects and the like - are not noted for the development of their minds. In fact developing any kind of ego would probably be a distinct drawback for ant or bee colonies.

Indeed in any species, what immediate pay-off could there be from consciousness that couldn't be matched (if not exceeded) by its absense? Your comments on 3 require that there already be consciousness in the species (or others); on 2, it should be apparent that organisms' interaction with the 'real world' long preceeded consciousness; and on 1, there could be no self-doubt without a sense of self. Our technological developments illustrate long-term potential from consciousness and intelligence, but while some proposed short-term gains might be coherent just-so stories to explain the fact of consciousness, I wonder if they would be credible stand-alone theories for its plausibility?
The reproductive success of bacteria etc. is due to enormous profligacy. Ants, bees and other social insects have found their own alternative, the sharing of precise information about food sources in the environment. In the world of evolution there is more than one way to de-fur a feline. . . .
[Snipped explanation of human consciousness]

Some relevant sources:
In Search of Memory (Nobel Laureate Eric Kandel)
The works of Antonio Damasio
The works of Joseph LeDoux
On Intelligence

But you seem to have already dismissed all evidence sight unseen as just-so stories.
I said that "while some proposed short-term gains might be coherent... to explain the fact of consciousness, I wonder if they would be credible stand-alone theories" for the plausibility of its development? And you focus on 'just-so stories' from the dots and infer that I'm dismissing all evidence on the matter, rather than asking for something with more substance than you'd provided. Interesting.

If consciousness were the product of evolution from nonconscious things, it appears that this genetically derived consciousness ought to have exactly the same characteristics we observe.
And if God became a human, the characteristics of that event ought to be remarkably similar to some Jewish fellow we know of.

But even if the reasoning were impeccable in showing that the expected outcome of the initial scenario matches known facts - obviously a much bigger IF in the second example - in neither case would it be a strong argument that the initial scenario is actually true. It would merely suggest the internal coherence of the theory.

Put another way, my OP asked if there is any justification for -
4? Most things outside my mind are not other minds, nor direct products of other minds
- and raised the potential problem of minds developing from non-mental stuff (or consciousness developing from non-conscious stuff). Your first post was aimed at answering that problem, rather than providing direct justification for 4. Fair enough, but as I pointed out you didn't show that consciousness could plausibly develop from non-conscious stuff - in fact you didn't really comment on the origins of consciousness at all: Your comments on <1> presuppose a sense of self, consciousness is to irrelevant your comments on <2>, your comments on <3> also presuppose other conscious minds and (though I didn't comment on it) your next paragraph also involved significantly developed mammalian consciousness. I did not intend for "just-so stories" to come across as offensive, and I apologise if that was the case; it just seemed a little shorter and snappier than 'hypothetical retrospective justifications,' which I used later in my reply.


Unless I've missed something, you haven't much argued for the origins or probable development of consciousness in this post either. I see no problems with your explanation of human consciousness - I've stopped being surprised by the breadth of your knowledge - but that doesn't answer the actual questions I'm asking:
> Do we have any reason to suppose that the stuff from which we evolved is/was neither conscious nor product of consciousness?
> Is it even possible for consciousness - the only non-reducible macroscopic property I know of - to develop from nonconscious stuff?
> Or (the question which I think you're trying to answer) assuming it's possible - I don't think we can know that it's impossible after all - can we infer that its development was probable, so as to at least offer a plausible alternative theory?
ThatGirlAgain wrote:The payoff for consciousness is the combination of time-binding and communal-binding. We can make decisions based on subtle correlations not available to the knee-jerk brain. We can share correlations with others to facilitate the greater efficiency of group efforts. I fail to see how these things " enormously important factors in the success of the human species " are no better or even worse than the alternative knee-jerk brain.
I gave several examples of what we know to be nonconscious processes in our bodies - heartbeat, respiration, digestion, reflexive reactions to pain or danger - and of course there are many others. It seems to me that the 'knee-jerk' brain, as you characterise the nonconscious options, is far more complex, quick and reliable than my conscious awareness or decisions. There certainly are big benefits from our advanced consciousness and intelligence, as you've noted in your post. But how does the usefulness of the advanced product show the likelihood of its development in the earliest stages?

You provided something of a definition of consciousness:
The essence of consciousness is the ongoing review of sensory input, present and past, as abstracted and correlated with similar inputs and their results, with complex interlinking of current input and older memory items. In a nutshell, consciousness is active memory. This allows the coherent review of large amounts of information and the selection of appropriate material to bring to the foreground. It is this ongoing flow of information and the resulting decisions that constitutes consciousness.

Would that apply to fish, I wonder? Or were you describing only human consciousness? Or would you say that fish are do not possess consciousness?

It's an interesting topic and while thinking about my reply I recalled that I'd already discussed it somewhat back in November 2010 with Bernee and AkiThePirate. My working definition of consciousness back then was:
I'm just theorising here of course, but probably the most basic indicators of awareness are reaction to pain and movement/exploration to acquire more sensory data. While it's true that different species have different means of acquiring sensory data, and different levels in their capacity to evaluate, remember and extrapolate from it, those would seem more like faculties in addition to 'consciousness,' not differing types or levels of consciousness itself.

Some interesting contrasts between our respective views - and I'm not sure I'd agree now with all I wrote back then - but obviously the key point of comparison here is that consciousness involves acquiring and responding to sensory data. Including notions like 'pain' from my earlier ideas or 'decisions' from yours potentially raise more questions than they answer. But setting aside peripheral or semantic issues like those, would you agree with my 2010 comment that the "capacity to evaluate, remember and extrapolate from" sensory data is additional to basic consciousness, or would you say (as implied by your description) that these are the very essence of it? If the latter it would seem you're implying that 'consciousness' arose probably sometime during vertebrate development?

But if consciousness is more basic, and evaluation, memory and extrapolation are additional functions, I have to wonder (though I dismissed it back then) whether we might even say that bacteria have some form of consciousness, since they apparently meet that basic criteria of acquiring and responding to sensory data. I'd be interested in your thoughts :)
ThatGirlAgain wrote:
Mithrae wrote:You mean the dependence of human subjective states on the presence of the larger mental substrate? Unless mental states are a different type of thing than brains, bodies and so on, then the difference is purely one of perspective; what I/we experience as subjects, and what we don't. Distinguishing between mental and physical as you're doing seems to be either meaningless - what is one, except a contrast of the other? - or an unfortunate relic of dualism.

But whereas we know that we have subjective experience, and we know that we can produce new images, thoughts and so on in our minds, we don't know that the rest of the world is substantially different. Knowing that there is consciousness, it's one thing to offer hypothetical retrospective justifications for the plausibility of its evolution - obviously our intelligence had to evolve somehow - but that doesn't show that the stuff from which it evolved was fundamentally different (non-mental or 'physical') in the first place, and nor does it show that mental phenomena could develop from 'physical' stuff at all (we'd be merely presuming it must have happened).
I am not distinguishing between mental and physical. Describing certain brain operations as mental is a form of shorthand far more convenient than trying to describe every electro-chemical process. Weather is another complex phenomenon best described in macro terms. Yet there is no hurricane distinct from the activities of the air and water molecules involved. There is no mind apart from the physical substrate of the brain. I can talk about hurricanes with making them something metaphysical.

And we know perfectly well that the world at large is non-mental. If you are hit in the head by a falling tree, it does not matter in the slightest if anyone knew about the tree or its defects beforehand. The tree is physical and entirely separate from any mental process. It has real undeniable consequences based entirely on physical laws and no amount of thinking can make the tree behave otherwise without some intervening physical instrumentality. And if that tree destroys your brain, your mental life has ceased to exist. If you disagree, show me evidence of mental life continuing when the underlying physical substrate of the brain has been destroyed.
You can also (in principle at least) see the activities of the air and water molecules in a hurricane, as can we all. But no-one can see my pain :cry: There is obviously a very significant difference between a hurricane and my subjective experience. But is the difference merely between my experience and the hurricane's experience (mostly anger, one would imagine), or is the difference that I experience things whereas the hurricane is part of some other/s' experience, or is the difference that I can experience whereas the hurricane cannot?

To be honest I find it hard to see how that third view isn't somewhat dualistic or metaphysical. From what you're saying it seems that experience (and especially this 'I' concept) seems to be something rather different and new, whether with humans or with earlier vertebrates or with life itself. This is the problem I'm trying to come to terms with through the thread, and I'm afraid pointing out that trees are independant from human minds doesn't even come close to answering it.

- I see no reason to suppose that the quasi-dualistic emergence of this new quality/property/capacity of subjective experience, consciousness or 'mind' is even possible or comprehensible

- And beyond the rudimentary self vs. other distinction necessary for infantile development, as yet I see no reason to invoke some state of being different from minds and their products in the first place

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Mithrae
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Post by Mithrae »

AquinasD wrote:
The structure of water or stones or DNA are a result of the manner in which their atoms and molecules bond under the given circumstances. The 'kind of thing something is' isn't a new property or thing, it's simply the sum of all the parts and their interactions, and the words we give to the whole thing are merely that; the way we refer to and think of them. The question of why those atoms and molecules (or as you've noted, their even more elementary components) have the properties they do is certainly intriguing and not so readily explained, but it wouldn't mean that we should invoke irreducible 'forms' for all macro-level things also. Perhaps I'm not understanding you properly though ;)
"The sum of its parts" fails to explain even very simple things, such as why gold as the macroscopic properties it does. I can point to mind as an example of something that is a form irreducible to "the sum of its parts," but then I can also point to animation (i.e. animal life) and (vegetative) life.
You'll have to be more specific about which of gold's macroscopic properties are not readily explained or reducible. The characteristics by which we define or recognise life - such as ingestion of nutrients and energy, their conversion, storage and use for cell division, growth and reproduction - are considerably more complicated than I myself understand, but from what I remember of high school biology a great deal of those processes are understood down to the chemical level by the folk who know such things. For example DNA replication, some of the specific gene coding in humans and other animals, photosynthesis in plants, chemosynthesis in bacteria, digestion in animals, respiration and so on. If 'life' is something distinct from all these processes (a cause or a product of them?) rather than simply the term by which we distinguish organisms with those processes from inanimate things or organisms without those processes (dead) then it may be irreducible; but I don't see why or how life should be considered something in itself, rather than the descriptive term. I'm not sure what you mean by animation (bringing to life?) apart from life itself, unless you're talking about animals' movement? If so, would you say that the movement of automated robots is the same irreducible form? Why or why not? If this is a different 'form' than life itself, you may be referring simply to the observable effects of consciousness; not something different from 'mind.'
AquinasD wrote:I'm of the view that each thing is composed of matter and form, and while sometimes it is clear how one form is generated from another, that a particular form is capable of actualizing another must be explained by that present form, rather than just the matter. Matter only serves to individuate. Suppose we were to go "all the way down" to elementary particles, and you would be forced to explain the properties of these things in reference to their intrinsic form. It is typical to try and think of matter as "some particular thing," but if it's supposed to be the individuating principle between things (i.e. why, for two forms that are identical, they can be separate, such as two cats), then that "some particular thing" must something else that informs the matter to its end.
No two cats are identical, so there's a bit of a problem with that idea right there. 'Cat' is a word, like life, to describe similarities in certain things we observe. It's versatile enough that it can describe my pet, or a bengal tiger, or the larger of the Tom and Jerry duo. (TGA's second point regarding consciousness is quite relevant here.) I'm honestly not seeing where this idea of 'forms' as being distinct from both matter and language comes from. Even for things which might be truly identical, like two molecules of water, the individuating principle between the two would be space - if we could imagine that they were always perfectly superimposed on each other there'd only be one molecule, but if they're not then obviously they're two separate molecules.
AquinasD wrote:
Mithrae wrote:I think you're misunderstanding me :no:
The main question I'm asking is similar to yours: What makes me think there's anything besides minds and their products?

If we suppose there's something different from and prior to mental stuff - usually called 'physical' - then the existence of minds is indeed a puzzle. Whereas life itself can be described in mechanical terms, we generally presume that minds are not even a property of all life; they're a rare anomaly, unique to this planet as far as we know, and perhaps the only thing not describable in terms of the properties of the sum of all parts. Because of this (and because I simply see no valid reason to imagine something/s other than mental stuff), it seems to me that idealism is the more reasonable way of imagining reality.
And perhaps it is, at least compared to materialism.
I'm trying to understand your alternative because I respect you, but I may not have enough background in philosophy to get it #-o

My ideas aren't particularly deep or complicated mostly, and I'd be the fourth to admit that I'm not the fastest thinker. The way I see it, once we've accepted the poorly-justified
2> There are things outside my mind
we ought to be cautious about supposing any additional distinctions about what reality is like. Distinctions based on observation or inferences from observation seem to be a fairly sound approach; but suggesting fundamentally different types of stuff (such as 'spiritual' vs. 'material') raises possible problems of unnecessary complexity, inadequate justification and incomprehensibility (how could these types of stuff interact if they're fundamentally different?). So a monistic view seems simplest and most reasonable to me.

I don't think that materialism/physicalism is particularly irrational - at least as long as my theory holds for why most all of us from infancy have this tendency to view the world as different from us - but it does seem to have those two problems that idealism needn't; inadequate justification for that infantile presumption, and the questions raised by the fact of consciousness in a supposedly nonconscious reality.

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bernee51 wrote:
Mithrae wrote:
bernee51 wrote:
Mithrae wrote:This is an interesting thought exercise which I think everyone should indulge themselves in at least once in their lives. What do I actually know? What can I reasonably believe?
Good questions.

As I have stated elsewhere, all I can actually know (AFAIK) is that we are biological creatures who have evolved a level of consciousness that facilitates self-awareness. Not only do we KNOW, but we KNOW that we KNOW. As such all else that we believe " all our thoughts, ideas, plans etc - al those things that come together to make up our sense of selfhood - are, and can only be, mental constructs.
I'm not sure I understand. It looks like you're suggesting there that self-awareness and mental constructs are merely a product of biological evolution, and 'less real' than the (different) stuff which produced them and on which they depend.
No less real...the reality of 'stuff' in the noosphere, however, depends on the individuals perception and 'agreements' with others.
Mithrae wrote:But later you've said:
There is no fundamental difference between self and other, both are illusions, constructs on awareness. What actually exists is awareness and that awareness is the only reality.

There seems to be a contradiction there between awareness as a product of physio- and biospheres, and awareness as the only reality.
The only reality when viewed from the noosphere.
What? Am I in a different noosphere from you?
bernee51 wrote:
Mithrae wrote:I like this way of thinking about it, as I've mentioned before. It makes sense to speak of interactions between parts of the self-aware sphere of being just as the parts of the living sphere interact, as do parts of the non-living sphere. But what makes you think that non-living stuff, the physiosphere, is the lowest holon?
The order of evolution...'big bang', sub-atomic particles coalesce and complixify, inot atoms, then molecules, then collections of molecules - which in turn complexify. The physioshere. Things could have stayed like that...and perhaps for the vast majority of the universe that is exactly how they continue. However, in this part of the physioshere there was a further coalescence and complexification and the bioshpere emerged...and so on.
Mithrae wrote: It seems to me that these other distinctions - conceptually useful though they may be - are somewhat arbitrary, possibly vague and definitely based on our perspective; the living/non-living distinction could be viewed in terms of complex mechanical processes (or lack thereof), and even self-awareness varies according to individual, culture (as you've mentioned) and potentially species.
Indeed, but they are not arbitrary...it describes the universe as we see it and as the current theory of cosmic evolution would describe it.
Mithrae wrote: So can we conclude that self-awareness or the noosphere is something fundamentally new and different? Or that the biosphere is? Or are they more along the lines of gradations in how we, from our perspective, view and categorise reality?
No they are emergent 'complexifications' (to use Teilhard de Chardin's terminology). Until the emergence of the noosphere there was no way for them to be described.
Mithrae wrote: And if the latter, if our characteristics which we describe as 'physical' and biological are simply more refined (or more us-like) ways of organising the same basic stuff, surely the same would be true of consciousness or self-awareness also?
Sorry, don't quite follow you here.
What I mean is it seems possible that many of the mental properties of 21st century humanity are neither intrinsically human nor uniquely human. You've suggested that earlier cultures went through certain developmental periods and that their very way of thinking may have been quite different to ours (not merely different in education, access to information, worldviews and superstitions). I'm not sure I agree with that, but I don't know much about it to comment intelligently - it's certainly true that environment has a big impact on mental development. It also seems clear that many of our mental properties are also shared (though often to a lesser degree) by other species, notably the likes of dolphins and other primates.

Which of our mental properties, and to what extent, go back to the earliest mammals? The earliest fish? Or even further back in the evolutionary chain? The idea of a 'noosphere' may be a useful category or concept from our perspective, but it seems that it's not something fundamentally new or different.

Similarly 'life' or the biosphere is a category of certain inter-related characteristics which go back some 3-plus billion years on Earth (and as far as we so far know, only on Earth). But as far as I'm aware the difference between life and non-life is, as you've suggested, simply a matter of the manner and complexity into which the 'physical' stuff is organised. There's more or less the same kinds of things, rules of behaviour and properties within the most advanced life-form as there are on some distant moon or in the heart of a star.

We know of course that all the stuff we can observe was once a lot smaller, all of it expanding from a single point of origin - the big bang. So materialists seem to figure "Okay, we've got a pretty good idea about this 'physical' stuff, and since life isn't something fundamentally new or different, and since human intelligence isn't something fundamentally new or different, we can conclude that our own minds aren't something fundamentally new or different either." I'm not sure if that's the approach that you're taking, but your useful spheres make it seem clear (to me at least) that that's going about it the wrong way around. We know about our minds, but we don't know what (if anything) came before the big bang, or why it happened, or what the actual basic nature of reality is.

So since our consciousness or the noosphere isn't fundamentally new or different (there's things akin to it through the biosphere) and since the biosphere isn't fundamentally new or different (there's things akin to it through the physiosphere), shouldn't we be reasoning that the 'physiosphere' must have something that's vaguely akin to our consciousness - or be part of an prior or 'lesser' sphere which is?

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