God, Satan and Job

[Tim the Skeptic]

The book of Job starts out with the "divine beings", including Satan, getting together with God. (OK, this is bizarre considering what I understand of God/Satan relationship, but not my point here.) And then this conversation, as I interpret it, occurs:

God (to Satan): Isn't Job a great guy, he is a blameless and upright man.

Satan: Look at the way he's been blessed by you. Of course, he's a great guy.

God: OK, you can do to his life whatever you want but don't hurt him.

Satan destroys Job's wealth and kills his children. But he did so with God's permission, so, who's responsible? Is God the source of this evil that happens to Job?

[harvey1]

Is God the source of this evil that happens to Job?

In the story it is God who allows Satan to afflict Job because there are real open questions as to Job's loyalty. This doesn't necessarily mean that God is the source of such evil. For example, the author may have felt that God allowed Job to be tested because Satan had presented a valid case. God allowed the case against Job to proceed, but we're not told the reason in Job. In the story God's role is more of a judge, so if the prosecutor presents evidence, it is not necessarily the judge's fault for allowing the evidence in court. Perhaps there's a law which requires the judge to allow such evidence. We don't have that information from the author to make that conclusion.

[Bugmaster]

In the story it is God who allows Satan to afflict Job because there are real open questions as to Job's loyalty. This doesn't necessarily mean that God is the source of such evil.

Being omniscient, God would already know who was loyal and who wasn't. There was no need to inflict Job's entire household with sores, nor to do anything else, really.

[Tim the Skeptic]

Harvey1, I don't see where God has any questions about Job's loyalty. Satan does. Busmaster's right, God knows it all, what with the questions?

But for the sake of seeing where you're going with this, let's say there are questions about Job's loyalty. So God allow Job's family to be killed because He has questions about Job? What did they do? Are they quilty by association? God's looking pretty arbitrary at this point to me.

[harvey1]

Being omniscient, God would already know who was loyal and who wasn't. There was no need to inflict Job's entire household with sores, nor to do anything else, really.

Again, the author doesn't state what God is thinking, or the reasons for God allowing Satan's interpretation of the events to be evaluated, but the author could have thought any number of things. For example, have you ever heard the phrase, "blinded by love"? The author might have thought that if there is an interpretation "out there" that is plausible solely from an objective point of view, then it can qualify as truth, and therefore needs to be verified in action. Omniscience eliminates this if there is a definite truth to such things, but omniscience might still be based on a particular conceptual way of looking at things, so it of itself might not be enough to know the truth.

[harvey1]

Harvey1, I don't see where God has any questions about Job's loyalty. Satan does. Busmaster's right, God knows it all, what with the questions?

Exactly. God has a conflicting interpretation in the story which might be wrong, the author doesn't say, but perhaps Satan (in the story) has as much information as God has in the situation, and therefore omniscience alone does not settle the issue. Or, perhaps God has more information than Satan has, but allows the process to continue so that Satan's interpretation has zero probability of being true.

But for the sake of seeing where you're going with this, let's say there are questions about Job's loyalty. So God allow Job's family to be killed because He has questions about Job? What did they do? Are they quilty by association? God's looking pretty arbitrary at this point to me.

The author mentions that God allows Satan to inflict his family, so Satan (in the mind of the author) is doing whatever it is that Satan does by creating havoc and evil. God could have prevented that, but instead God choose a laizez-faire approach by allowing Satan's interpretation of the situation to be thoroughly tested. Perhaps the author thought that this was a pretty major issue in Heaven. For example, if Job was found to curse God, then maybe there are no good servants afterall. If there are no good servants, maybe God's influence on men is negligible and Satan is right about human beings deserving destruction (thinking hypothetically here of what the author might have had in mind). It is very difficult to enter into the mind of an author who gives us no information. Although, I don't see the problems you do with the story.

[Bugmaster]

Exactly. God has a conflicting interpretation in the story which might be wrong, the author doesn't say, but perhaps Satan (in the story) has as much information as God has in the situation...
It is very difficult to enter into the mind of an author who gives us no information. Although, I don't see the problems you do with the story.

I agree, and I do like your interpretation. In fact, I would go so far as to say that, in the OT, God and Satan are evenly matched: they're both pretty evil, and pretty powerful, but neither of them is omni-anything. They're involved in a big RTS game (or, perhaps, a game of Populous), with humans for units. No wonder it's hard for us to get into the authors' heads -- we have this "free will" notion pretty much ingrained in our minds.

However, I can't help but notice that you speak of the story of Job as though it was fictional. Again, I'd agree, but I think most Jews or Christians would not. According to their interpretation, the story of Job is a documentary, directly inspired (and, perhaphs, narrtated) by God. When viewed in that light, the story has several consistency problems, such as the ones we've pointed out in this thread.

[trencacloscas]

In the story it is God who allows Satan to afflict Job because there are real open questions as to Job's loyalty. This doesn't necessarily mean that God is the source of such evil.

Of course. If you deliver a victim to a torturer, you are not "the source of such evil", aren't you?

[Tim the Skeptic]

I'll admit that I brought assumptions to this discussion. Those assumptions are that Jews and Christians believe that God is:
1. All good
2. All powerful
3. All knowing
4. Eternal
5. Unchanging - the same always and forever.
6. Omnip.....everywhere at the same time.

And here's the thing, this God in the Book of Job doesn't look like the God I was told about. Apparently, he might not be all-knowing. Or maybe he is all-knowing and he allows innocent people (the Book of Job doesn't say the kids are quilty of anything) to be killed for the sake of a test. That seems evil to me. If that isn't evil, what is the standard for good. (I smell the Euthyphro Dilemma.) Laizez-faire is bad justification when people are dying.

This God is really beginning to sound like a Greek god. This God seems like Zeus. Discussing people, testing them, killing them, questionable moral standards, judgemental and all the other charming characteristics the Greek gods displayed. And I guess that's OK, but no one (sane) worships Greek gods anymore. So why bother with this God, what's the difference?

[Cathar1950]

Actually it is an ancient story pre-bible that was used to argue against the idea that if your sick or life sucks it is your fault.
God is saying to Job "you ever try to make a world". In other words God did the best he could. They are all kinds of reasons bad things happen to good people. Notice Satan is with the other gods? When El the most hight sat in counsel over the other gods. I like the part in the Bible where it says God(El) the most High gave Israel to YHWH.
I am not sure I buy all the attributes of God either.