Another problem with the Gospel of John

[Elijah John]

A fundamental contradiction with the Synoptics anyway:

John 3:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

VS


Luke 23:34

King James Version (KJV)

34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

---

The Romans who pinned Jesus to the cross did not believe "in the name of the only begotten Son of God." So according to John, they must have been "condemned already".

But in Luke, Jesus asks the Father to forgive them. Why? If they were supposedly "condemned already" for not believing in him. But Jesus pleads ignorance on their behalf.

Could it be that God's mercy is more extensive and encompassing than John gives Him credit for?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 30 by 1213]


Have you received the baptism of the Spirit?

[Ooberman]

However, that seems to, then, cause you a problem if we were to accept Christianity as true.

Clearly, God has told people to murder - against his Commandment not to.

I think God has not commanded to murder. He may have commanded to kill, but not murder. Murder is unjust kill and I believe God don’t do anything unjust.

Of course you don't think God has ever done anything wrong, or is capable of doing anything wrong.

God could massacre a trillion babies and you would still call it Good.

I believe what Jesus said and I want to be faithful (loyal) to him. That means I don’t kill and because of what Jesus told I think God wouldn’t command me to murder or kill. (People die even if I don’t help it). That is why, if someone would come and claim to be God and then would command me to kill, I probably wouldn’t do it, because I think it would be in contradiction to teaching of Jesus.

This is in contradiction to the stories in the Bible.

If I wouldn’t have knowledge about Jesus and his teachings, I probably wouldn’t kill even in that scenario, because I think it wouldn’t be right that I do it. And actually I wouldn’t keep anyone that I think is evil as my God. I keep Bible God as my God, because I think he is good and righteous.

The God of the Bible is a monster; used by Moses and others to justify their genocide.

Nazis will quote Main Kampf, you quote the Bible. There is no difference except because you are comfortably living in a Christian country, you don't need to be violent.

I don't expect you to agree, but from my perspective you are only one "vision" away from murdering in God's name.

At least if I go nuts, you can blame it on psychology and send me to jail or a psych ward.

If you go nuts, you'd have us praise God.

But, here you are saying "God, let me tell you what I think you would or would not do."

I don’t think so.

But that's the case.

For example, perhaps Christians didn't know this, but Yahweh once had a whole set of rules, nicely complete for thousands of years - then one day, sent his Son to amend the rules.

If you ask a Christian today "can God amend the rules?" They would claim "No! The Bible says so!"

I do not think God or has his Son has amended the rules. I do not think God or has his Son has amended the rules. In my opinion if you think so, you probably have not understood what the Bible tells.

I think you are the one who doesn't understand the Bible.

I think it's troubling that you can't recognize genocide, or the fact that Christianity changed Judaism with new rules.

If Jesus hadn't changed the rules, the OT would be the ONLY scripture - complete with orders to kill witches, gays, etc.

My suspicion is you refuse to acknowledge this because you are too married to your view that you are right and the Bible is wrong.

[ElCodeMonkey]

How do you know you are saved if you don't know what it takes to be saved?

I think to be saved it means that person must receive the words that Jesus said. I believe I have done that.

It is the spirit who gives life. The flesh profits nothing. The words that I speak to you are spirit, and are life.
John 6:63

And to get eternal life, person must be righteous.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For I tell you that unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:20

I believe that through words that Jesus said person can become righteous and get eternal life. However I am not judge and I can’t testify for myself. It is in God’s hands what happens to me at the end. I don’t have to know it, because I believe God is good and what ever happens it will be good and right.

If I testify about myself, my witness is not valid.
John 5:31

I note that you're a "Disciple of Jesus" as opposed to a "Christian." Your views are contrary to that of most Christians although they are extremely similar to those I had prior to denouncing the Bible as God's written word. Mostly because much of the word contradicts these beliefs you hold and I once held. I admire them, so don't get me wrong, because they're the views I still hold today but without a Christian influence. So I wonder, where/how did you come up with these ideas? Do you associate with any particular brand of Christianity? Cuz I never found it when I was a Christian and I came upon those views on my own by reading the Bible and found it much more palatable than the views of Christianity and much of Paul. Further, I can't help but wonder how you continue to hold these views while not giving up on the rest of the Bible such as the book of John.

[1213]

...I admire them, so don't get me wrong, because they're the views I still hold today...

That is nice to hear

So I wonder, where/how did you come up with these ideas? Do you associate with any particular brand of Christianity? Cuz I never found it when I was a Christian and I came upon those views on my own by reading the Bible and found it much more palatable than the views of Christianity and much of Paul. Further, I can't help but wonder how you continue to hold these views while not giving up on the rest of the Bible such as the book of John.

I have read the Bible and come to this point by doing so and praying that God would help me to understand.

At the moment I don’t really associate with any “Christian� brand, because I think none of them is faithful to God or Jesus. And actually I think it would be better to not use the word Christian if person thinks he is disciple of Jesus. Christians seem to follow regular humans, not Jesus.

I think, if the Bible is understood correctly, there are no contradictions. If something seems to be in contradiction, I have probably not understood it correctly. For me it is not a problem, if I don’t understand or know all at the moment, because I know enough to want to remain faithful to God in any case.

[1213]

[Replying to post 30 by 1213]


Have you received the baptism of the Spirit?

I am sorry, I can’t testify for myself. But, what do you think; do I have the Spirit in your opinion?

[1213]

If Jesus hadn't changed the rules, the OT would be the ONLY scripture - complete with orders to kill witches, gays, etc.

My suspicion is you refuse to acknowledge this because you are too married to your view that you are right and the Bible is wrong.

It may be true that Christianity has changed rules. However I think Jesus and God has not changed them. Modern people don’t just have all the same rights in my opinion and I think it is good, because modern people don’t seem to understand what is written in the OT.

I don’t understand why it is so difficult for atheists to understand that Bible don’t give right to judge for all people and it never has done that.

I think Bible is not wrong about anything it tells. But some interpretations and conclusions about it can be.

[ElCodeMonkey]

At the moment I don’t really associate with any “Christian� brand, because I think none of them is faithful to God or Jesus. And actually I think it would be better to not use the word Christian if person thinks he is disciple of Jesus. Christians seem to follow regular humans, not Jesus.

If you're willing to believe this, why not go one tiny step further and consider how likely it is that these human-followers also are the ones who illegitimately deem the Bible inerrant? How long after Jesus' death do you suppose the human-following began? Before or after the ordained encapsulation of texts into the Bible?

[1213]

If you're willing to believe this, why not go one tiny step further and consider how likely it is that these human-followers also are the ones who illegitimately deem the Bible inerrant? How long after Jesus' death do you suppose the human-following began? Before or after the ordained encapsulation of texts into the Bible?

Because what is written in the Bible, I think people managed to get the message correctly to the Bible. One reason for that may be that they didn’t really understand it wholly. Many people see those teachings natural way even though they are spiritual things and it gives opportunity to make Christianity type religion that is focused on natural point of view and suitable for natural men to gain earthly benefits.

Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor. 2:13-14

I think Bible protects the message by giving two levels. The deeper level is kind of hidden so that those who lust for power won’t think it as harmful for them. If they would understand it correctly, they would want to destroy it or prevent people to read it.

[Clownboat]

If you're willing to believe this, why not go one tiny step further and consider how likely it is that these human-followers also are the ones who illegitimately deem the Bible inerrant? How long after Jesus' death do you suppose the human-following began? Before or after the ordained encapsulation of texts into the Bible?

Because what is written in the Bible, I think people managed to get the message correctly to the Bible. One reason for that may be that they didn’t really understand it wholly. Many people see those teachings natural way even though they are spiritual things and it gives opportunity to make Christianity type religion that is focused on natural point of view and suitable for natural men to gain earthly benefits.

Which things also we speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches, but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual things. Now the natural man doesn't receive the things of God's Spirit, for they are foolishness to him, and he can't know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor. 2:13-14

I think Bible protects the message by giving two levels. The deeper level is kind of hidden so that those who lust for power won’t think it as harmful for them. If they would understand it correctly, they would want to destroy it or prevent people to read it.

Consider a pagan worshiping a gold calf. Consider that they truly feel that this idol has power and will affect their life.

Now consider your view of this book called the Bible. Are you not making an idol of it?

You may say, "well, the Bible is the word of the god that created us".
The pagan may say, "well, the golden calf is a conduit to the god that created us".

Neither are convincing arguments.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 30 by 1213]


Have you received the baptism of the Spirit?

I am sorry, I can’t testify for myself. But, what do you think; do I have the Spirit in your opinion?

How would I know? Christianity denies the proof (perfection) that Christ prayed for as a sign to the world.