More on the virgin birth

[atheist buddy]

This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit. 19Because Joseph her husband was a righteous man and did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

20But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, “Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit. 21She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins.�

22All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: 23�The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel�-- which means, “God with us.�

24When Joseph awoke, he did what the angel of the Lord had commanded him and took Mary home as his wife. 25But he had no union with her until she gave birth to a son. And he gave him the name Jesus.

That is what it says in the Book of Matthew about Jesus's virgin birth.

In short: Mary gets pregnant, Joseph knows that he had no part in that. So then Joseph has a dream that it was the Holy Spirit that got Mary pregnant.... and he believes it.

You believe that Mary was a virgin, because some guy you never met wrote down that Joseph - who he never met - had a dream that Mary's got pregnant without having sex.

Question for debate: ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

I mean, could there be a less justifiable belief than that?

Would you believe in pink flying elephants wearing top hats, if I told you that my cousin once dreamed of one?

When you had a nightmare as a child, what did mommy tell you? Did she ever explain to you that DREAMS ARE NOT REAL?

If, as an adult, you're capable of understanding that just because you dreamed that an ogre was going to hit you with a stone club, it doesn't mean that ogres are real, then why is it that you're not capable of understanding that just because some guy dreams that his wife got pregnant without having sex, it doesn't mean that virgin births are real?

[DanieltheDragon]

[Replying to post 1 by atheist buddy]

No they are not kidding you. If you are under the assumption that the bible is the inerrant word of god it is not stating a falsehood everything in it is true. Furthermore there are a few psychological mechanisms at play here.

Group Think
Cognitive Dissonance
Confirmation Bias

These 3 things virtually guarantee that the assumptions made in the bible are not questioned. Especially when you have everyone of authority around you stating they are true. We are social creatures and we rely everyday on the thoughts actions and opinions of others. Let me give you an example.

To make the device and infrastructure we are communicating on right this very instant the people who designed the mechanisms we are using had to rely on assumptions that the other parts of the project will work as they are described even if they don't understand them entirely themselves. The Programmers the electricians the engineers the construction workers the designers don't all share the same level of expertise and have to rely on others to accomplish the goal.

Likewise not everyone really has the time to examine their religion in detail and go along with the assumptions made by others to get by with their belief.

So when we see things that might seem ludicrous even though they probably are there are genuine reasons why a person might believe even if the idea is not really all that rational. Are brains essentially work against us in this regard that is why you see the majority of populations sharing a belief that Jesus was born of a virgin.

[atheist buddy]

[Replying to post 1 by atheist buddy]

No they are not kidding you. If you are under the assumption that the bible is the inerrant word of god it is not stating a falsehood everything in it is true. Furthermore there are a few psychological mechanisms at play here.

Group Think
Cognitive Dissonance
Confirmation Bias

These 3 things virtually guarantee that the assumptions made in the bible are not questioned. Especially when you have everyone of authority around you stating they are true. We are social creatures and we rely everyday on the thoughts actions and opinions of others. Let me give you an example.

To make the device and infrastructure we are communicating on right this very instant the people who designed the mechanisms we are using had to rely on assumptions that the other parts of the project will work as they are described even if they don't understand them entirely themselves. The Programmers the electricians the engineers the construction workers the designers don't all share the same level of expertise and have to rely on others to accomplish the goal.

Likewise not everyone really has the time to examine their religion in detail and go along with the assumptions made by others to get by with their belief.

So when we see things that might seem ludicrous even though they probably are there are genuine reasons why a person might believe even if the idea is not really all that rational. Are brains essentially work against us in this regard that is why you see the majority of populations sharing a belief that Jesus was born of a virgin.

I understand that. You are absolutely right.

The thing is that people on this board are exposed to the facts.

It's very possible that a bunch of christians in the world who believe in the virgin birth never actually read the Book of Matthew and therefore don't know how utterly weaksause the tale is.

But people like 1213, Arian, Dianaiad are as knowledgeable of the data as you and I are, and yet they still believe it!

I used to believe in Santa as a kid. But when I woke up one night and saw my parents putting gifts under the tree, I figured it out and stopped believing it.


A guy's fiancee got pregnant. He had a dream that it wasn't by cheating on him. It's already delusional for the guy to believe the story himself. Yet, YOU people believe it because somebody wrote down that somebody told him that Joseph told him that he had a dream that Mary got pregnant without having sex. COME ON!

[myth-one.com]

Question for debate: ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

I mean, could there be a less justifiable belief than that?

And yet, today's date, 10/21/14 is tied to the date of Jesus' birth.

It is 2014 years from the birth of Jesus.

Your date of birth is tied to His also.

And if you pay income taxes in the United States, you pay more because those paying tithes and giving donations to Christian organizations get a tax deduction from their tithes and donations.

So athiests are forced to indirectly support religious organizations!

It seems an inescapable fact that the birth of Jesus in Bethelem 2014 years ago was somehow incredible important.

Much of what we do on a daily basis seems based upon what you call these "unjustifible beliefs."

It must be very frustrating for you!

God Bless!

[atheist buddy]

Question for debate: ARE YOU KIDDING ME???

I mean, could there be a less justifiable belief than that?

And yet, today's date, 10/21/14 is tied to the date of Jesus' birth.

Actually it's tied to the Winter Solstice, a Pagan Holiday. Nobody knows when Jesus was actually born. Several centuries after Jesu's death, the Solstice was arbitrarily picked by the clergy as the day in which Jesus's birth would be celebrated, since the day was already holy to the masses as a Pagan Holiday.

It is 2014 years from the birth of Jesus.

Just so you know there are 49 different calendars actively used today. The Christian one is just one of them.

Your date of birth is tied to His also.

Only according to one of 49 calendars in use today.

And if you pay income taxes in the United States, you pay more because those paying tithes and giving donations to Christian organizations get a tax deduction from their tithes and donations.

Actually, charitable donations through secular organizations are just as tax deductable as tithes to Christian organizations, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu organizations.

So athiests are forced to indirectly support religious organizations!

To no greater degree than theists are forced to indirectly support Planned Parenthood thanks to the fact that I get to deduct from my taxable income any donation I make to them.

It seems an inescapable fact that the birth of Jesus in Bethelem 2014 years ago was somehow incredible important.

To this day we still call the planets of our solar system by the names of Greek Gods. Ditto the days of the week in most latin languages.

It seems an inescapable fact that the Gods of Olympus are somehow incredibly important.

Much of what we do on a daily basis seems based upon what you call these "unjustifible beliefs."

Less and less so with every generation, thankfully.

It's duly noted that you didn't take this opportunity to justify these beliefs, and instead just attempted (and failed) to point out their social and historical status.

It must be very frustrating for you!

Not as much as it must be frustrating for you that non-theist is the largest growing group in America according to the US Census.

Not as much as it must be frustrating for you that europe is now majority non-believer.

Not as much as it must be frustrating for you that proponents of Intelligent Design have been destroyed in every court case they ever went to.

Not as much as it must be frustrating for you that if you try to discriminate against me in the workplace for not being religious, I get to sue you for all the money you'll ever make in your life.

Not as much as it must be frustrating for you that if at any point in the last 2000 years I had said "Christianity is false, Mary was probably doing it with the milkman 9 months before Jesus was born", I would have probably gotten burned at the stake for heresy, whereas now I can say it with impunity, and your only resort is to fume and vent on a debate website, and try to change the subject to the historical significance of the virgin birth fairy tale.

Yahweh is going the way of Zeus, Thor and Odin, buddy. It must be very frustrating for you, after 2000 years of social dominance, to clearly see that your religion's trajectory is towards oblivion.

God Bless!

And may Thor grant you power and success!

[myth-one.com]

Actually, charitable donations through secular organizations are just as tax deductable as tithes to Christian organizations, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu organizations.

All charitable donations should be deductable.

But are you all warm and fuzzy with athiest's money supporting Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious beliefs?

[Clownboat]

Actually, charitable donations through secular organizations are just as tax deductable as tithes to Christian organizations, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu organizations.

All charitable donations should be deductable.

But are you all warm and fuzzy with athiest's money supporting Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious beliefs?

That's the only part of his entire post that you responded to?
Seriously?

What difference does it make if he is warm and fuzzy or not? Did/do you have a point, or is this random ramblings for the sake of it?

[atheist buddy]

Actually, charitable donations through secular organizations are just as tax deductable as tithes to Christian organizations, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu organizations.

All charitable donations should be deductable.

But are you all warm and fuzzy with athiest's money supporting Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious beliefs?

As warm and fuzzy about your christian money supporting atheist beliefs.

By the way, I cant thank you enough for truly bringing the point home that yu have ZERO response to my OP argument. No attempt to address it, no decision to ignore my thread entirely, could have made it more clear that you concede that its absurd to believe, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that something is true because you heard from some guy that some other guy DREAMED it.

[myth-one.com]

Actually, charitable donations through secular organizations are just as tax deductable as tithes to Christian organizations, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu organizations.

All charitable donations should be deductable.

But are you all warm and fuzzy with atheist's money supporting Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious beliefs?

That's the only part of his entire post that you responded to?
Seriously?

My apology. Let me address a few of his more serious points:

And yet, today's date, 10/21/14 is tied to the date of Jesus' birth.

Actually it's tied to the Winter Solstice, a Pagan Holiday.

So instead of today being October 21, 2014 AD (year of our Lord) it should be:

October 21, 2014 WS (year of the Winter Solstice)

or

October 21, 2014 PH (year of the Pagan Holiday)

Your date of birth is tied to His also.

Only according to one of 49 calendars in use today.

How many of the 49 do you use on a daily basis?

I also have more that one. Mostly, I use the one with the pretty girls associated with each month.

. . . are you all warm and fuzzy with athiest's money supporting Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious beliefs?

As warm and fuzzy about your christian money supporting atheist beliefs.

How does Christian money support atheist beliefs?

[atheist buddy]

Actually, charitable donations through secular organizations are just as tax deductable as tithes to Christian organizations, Muslims, Jewish and Hindu organizations.

All charitable donations should be deductable.

But are you all warm and fuzzy with atheist's money supporting Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious beliefs?

That's the only part of his entire post that you responded to?
Seriously?

My apology. Let me address a few of his more serious points:

None of the stuff you address below are "my serious points". This is all dribble you came up with to avoid the actual issue at hand. My serious point is addressed in the OP.

And yet, today's date, 10/21/14 is tied to the date of Jesus' birth.

Actually it's tied to the Winter Solstice, a Pagan Holiday.

So instead of today being October 21, 2014 AD (year of our Lord) it should be:

October 21, 2014 WS (year of the Winter Solstice)

or

October 21, 2014 PH (year of the Pagan Holiday)

Well, it was switched to Jesus in the 3rd century, but that's what it originally was.

I truly don't care about this, by the way.

I'm just responding just so the entire forum can see how long you will go before actually addressing the OP, namely the isse that one has to be gullible beyond redemption, to believe in something that is physically impossible, just because some guy told him that some other guy dreamed that it happened.

Your date of birth is tied to His also.

Only according to one of 49 calendars in use today.

How many of the 49 do you use on a daily basis?

In America I use the Christian Calendar. In China they use the chinese calendar, in Muslim countries they use the Muslim calendar, etc. While I can see that some people who probably never left their town in Alabama might have a hard time wrapping their head around the notion that people do things differently outside of their village, it nonetheless is the case, as you, a cosmopolitan dweller of the internets, will surely know.

. . . are you all warm and fuzzy with athiest's money supporting Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, and other religious beliefs?

As warm and fuzzy about your christian money supporting atheist beliefs.

How does Christian money support atheist beliefs?

In the EXACT same way that you argued that atheist money supports Christian beliefs.

I make massive donations to atheist or secular causes such as Planned Parenthood, the Richard Dawkins Foundation, American Atheist or LGBT Equality, and because I do, I pay less taxes. You have to pay more taxes as a result. If my atheistic charitable deductions weren't allowed, I'd end up paying more taxes, the IRS would have more revenue, and your taxes could be lowered.

Thanks for helping me fund abortions, promote atheism, and help gays recruit your children into their lifestyle. Every penny counts, and we appreciate it.

And thank you, thank you, thank you, for continuing to fail to even ATTEMPT to address the issue that to believe in the boogie man, in ogres, in flying pigs or in virgin births because some guy wrote down that some guy told him that he had a dream about it, is completely and utterly insane.

You couldn't make you inability to answer more clear than this. Please tell me more about the kinds of girls that you enjoy looking at on the calendar, so we can all have additional evidence that you don't have an answer to the actual question at hand.