The paradox many of us are faced with

[OnceConvinced]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

And before someone suggests prayer, we have the same problem there. The bible seems to us to be full of nonsense, lies and fantasies. For many of us we just don't believe the God of this bible to be real, so why would we pray to something we don't believe in? We must first believe in God to pray to him and then we must first believe the bible about what it says about God. Same vicious circle yet again.

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't. My mind is not that fickle. I can't choose to believe in the bible God any more than I can choose to believe there are fairies in my garden or boogyman hiding in my closet.

[JoeyKnothead]

From the OP:

...
How do we resolve this paradox?

By challenging those various proponents to show they speak truth, and noticing their responses.

Conclusions?

Those incapable of showing they speak truth should not be expected to ever tell it.

[OnceConvinced]

By challenging those various proponents to show they speak truth, and noticing their responses.

Invariably though they end up dredging up bible verses or bible claims to back up their arguments and we have to rely on THEIR interpretation. Once again we are left with that same problem of how do we know the interpretations are accurate?

If we end up with false Christians giving us false interpretations of the bible, we'll no better off. We could be believing lies. I would think the only sure fire way to get the truth out of the bible would be to tap into the holy spirit ourselves. But we can't do that until we first believe, but I'm not gullible enough to be taken in by some deluded person claiming to "speak the truth" and/or claiming to be a spokesperson from God.

One thing I get from this site is there are many Christians all who believe different things, but yet still claim to have the holy spirit guiding them. They can't all be right. Only one of them could possibly be a true Christian, the one that really is hearing from the Holy Spirit, but which one is that?

[YahDough]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation
For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

So what's the problem?

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

Repentance is the starting point. A person shouldn't have to "believe" anything in the Bible to know they need to repent. John the Baptist showed this even before Christ came along.

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

That is a problem for non-believers trying to read the Bible. The New Testament Bible was written to the Church of believers. Believers are Christians with the Holy Spirit.

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

That's not true.

How do we resolve this paradox?

Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Then read the Bible again with the help of the Holy Ghost (Spirit), God's gift to believers.

[Zzyzx]

.

Repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. Then read the Bible again with the help of the Holy Ghost (Spirit), God's gift to believers.

Do you not realize that the person to whom you are responding spent thirty years as a devout Christian – who was with little doubt repentant and baptized?

Do you not realize that OC has said that he read the bible many times?

Are you aware that Mother Teresa had a similar problem – for fifty years?

Perhaps the "holy spirit" just didn't choose to visit OC and MT?

If your suggestion didn't work for them (and many others), why assume that it would work for anyone else?

[ttruscott]

...

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

Background:
I sympathize as a religious person who hated YHWH for the crimes He committed against us yet convinced a huge gang of self righteous people to accept.But as religious person I was drawn to understand reality by taking into account relation definitions, so I was not totally atheistic. And so I arrived at the place you mention here. Encouraged by a friend to find out if christianity was real I started to read the bible. The one thing I got from my first few months of reading was that YHWH's description of HIMself and the description of HIM from the other religions was so diametrically opposite that I knew someone was lying to me. Then my friend encouraged me to find out if YHWH was real and a real GOD.

I think his method of doing this is an answer to your question because it starts from a position of unbelief and even some animosity to the idea...

Answer:
A non-believer can become a true believer by seeking God by a commitment to short prayer once daily to whomever and with no commitment, to please show you the truth of who is God and to give you a repentant heart, followed by a short daily bible reading in the New Testament, of any length but in linear order to the end. 1 Chronicles 28:9 If you seek him, he will be found by you; seems to have held true for me even though my seeking was not for any person in particular but for proof of who GOD was.

...

Also please don't try to say I can "Choose to believe", because I know I can't.

...

Yes, I do agree, that answer is based in theology, not in human life,

peace, Ted

[Divine Insight]

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

Repentance is the starting point. A person shouldn't have to "believe" anything in the Bible to know they need to repent. John the Baptist showed this even before Christ came along.

John the Baptist didn't show any such thing. On the contrary John the Baptist was already a "believer" in superstitious myths. He already believed that a person needs to be "baptized" of a Holy Spirit. He already believed in an angry hateful God who was out to condemn people.

You say, "A person shouldn't have to "believe" anything in the Bible to know they need to repent."

That's baloney. Why should a secularist feel a need to repent unless they had actually done something with malicious evil intent that they themselves knew was wrong at the time?

If you believe that all humans are maliciously evil with intent, then your worldview if dramatically different from mine. Moreover, you must necessarily believe this of yourself as well, because if you weren't a maliciously evil person you would know that it's not true of everyone.

When Christians make these kinds of claims they are doing nothing more than confessing to me that they are indeed maliciously evil people. I'm not like that, so I can't identify with your worldview.

In fact, a religion like Christianity has been known to make people feel guilty over things they should have never felt guilty over in the first place. Many people who were Christians and came to the realization that the religion is false are often lifted of a lot of totally unnecessary guilt.

Christianity tries to make people feel guilty for merely being human.

I see no reason to "repent" for anything outside of Christian dogma. I also don't even agree with many of the things it claims I should be feeling guilty about? Like not believing in the stupid religion in the first place. That itself is supposed to be a "sin".

Christianity creates absurd and unreasonable guilt complexes. Decent secularists have no innate need to "repent" anything.

[ThePainefulTruth]

[Replying to post 1 by OnceConvinced]

You could say that humanity is diverging--into those who base their faith on reason, and those who take the intellectually easy path of blind faith. The latter has ruled since the dawn of civilization. But man's ultimate salvation isn't based on intelligence alone, rather on using intelligence to actively seek rationality--also known as the Truth.

The last 200 years has shown exponential growth in that pursuit, but it's not in a vacuum. The forces of thoughtless blindness are best exemplified by the ultimate reactionaries, Muslims and their desperate quest for a theocratic Sharia, by force, which is similar to what Paul's vision for rule by the Holy Spirit was during the Dark Ages.

Reason's only weak spot is self-doubt brought about by an emotional need to contribute, which is where reasoned faith in the Truth comes in. Just as we see the inevitable downward spiral of irrational blind faith, we have to understand that emotional fulfillment via the pursuit of Truth (knowledge, justice, love and beauty), is also inevitable.

Man's next step in evolution will be brought about by reasoned volition rather than evolved reactions. That won't be accomplished with blind faith in "revealed" gods, but with reasoned faith in the one and only true God, Truth--wherever that leads.

[dianaiad]

We have Christians telling us that for us to be able to understand the bible, we need the holy spirit to guide us.

The problem is, this puts us in a Catch 22 situation…

It can certainly seem that way.

For us to be able to get the holy spirit, we first have to repent and accept Jesus Christ as our savior. Only then can we get the holy spirit.

The thing is to do that we first need to believe what the bible tells us about these things. If we don’t believe, then how can we genuinely repent?

However for us to believe what the bible tells us we need to be able to understand it and we need to be able to see it’s true. We need to be able to resolve the many varied issues we see when it comes to the bible. But how can we do that if we don’t have the Holy Spirit in us?

So we are left in a situation we just can’t possibly resolve.

How do we resolve this paradox?

I don't know how anyone does who actually buys into this very circular idea. I have indeed heard it expressed many times, by folks on both sides of the belief line: in a 'call to repentance' on one side, and in frustration on the other.

You are quite right; those who say it just that way are indeed handing you a very circular bit of impossibility. It's one of the things that Calvinists, for instance, solve by claiming that it is God Who does the choosing, and those who believe do so because He fixes it so that they will.

Now me, I, personally, don't get that approach. How can anyone be required to believe before he can believe?

I figure it's more like, oh, being willing to open one's mind and heart to possibilities.

You know...read the bible (or whatever is in front of you that proclaims divine origin), think about it, and then, keeping your mind open to the possibility, pray sort of like this:

God, if you are up there, it says right here that if I ask, you'll answer. So, if You are there, how about it?

Or even more basic: "God, are you there?"

Something like that. Of course, the kicker is that one must not have already made up his mind so firmly that God doesn't exist that something of the answer might actually get through.

Ah, but that's just me and the way I approach stuff like this.

[Neatras]

[Replying to post 9 by dianaiad]

You know...read the bible (or whatever is in front of you that proclaims divine origin), think about it, and then, keeping your mind open to the possibility, pray sort of like this:

God, if you are up there, it says right here that if I ask, you'll answer. So, if You are there, how about it?

Or even more basic: "God, are you there?"

What about: "God, please. I'm scared, I'm really scared because I've been trying to reach out and communicate with you, or at least feel like you're there. But nothing works. Please do anything to make it clear to me personally that you're out there. I don't care about proof, I just need something to keep me faithful to you. Anything. Anything at all"?

That almost became my regular plea on a nightly basis. And I got nothing. I suspect many fellow ex-christians had a similar experience.