Challenge to detractors

[Elijah John]

This is a quote from another thread which I think will make an excellent topic:

rikuoamero wrote:

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

Elijah, out of curiosity, can you give me an OT quote where God commands something good and positive? Indulge me please? Chapter and verse, quote it in full please."

Challenge:

To defenders of the God of the Bible: Please follow suit and provide positive commands from the Old Tesatment, as rikuo requested.

To detractors, please provide same. Or explain how the examples we will provide are NOT intrinsically positive.

I'll start: Micah 6:8 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

8 He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

[Bust Nak]

Doesn't seem all that controversial? Exodus 20:12-17 and Deuteronomy 5:16-21
Honour thy father and thy mother.
Thou shalt not murder.
Thou shalt not commit adultery.
Thou shalt not steal.
Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
Thou shalt not covet.

[Elijah John]

Leviticus 19:18 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

"18 You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord."

Another one, one that Jesus amplified.

[catnip]

This is a quote from another thread which I think will make an excellent topic:

rikuoamero wrote:

[Replying to post 4 by Elijah John]

Elijah, out of curiosity, can you give me an OT quote where God commands something good and positive? Indulge me please? Chapter and verse, quote it in full please."

Challenge:

To defenders of the God of the Bible: Please follow suit and provide positive commands from the Old Tesatment, as rikuo requested.

To detractors, please provide same. Or explain how the examples we will provide are NOT intrinsically positive.

I'll start: Micah 6:8 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

8 He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

That's a very good one!

Oh, gee. There are so many good things I have a difficult time choosing and as soon as I do, I'll think of another one.

I'll have to come back later.

[Divine Insight]

To detractors, please provide same. Or explain how the examples we will provide are NOT intrinsically positive.

I'll start: Micah 6:8 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)

8 He has told you, O mortal, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to do justice, and to love kindness,
and to walk humbly with your God?

The problem I have with the above verse is that with respect to the rest of the Bible it's basically a lie.

This God doesn't just require that we do justice, love kindness and walk humbly with our God.

There are places in the Bible where we are commanded to seek out those who worship other Gods and kill those people with no mercy including their children and livestock.

So Micah 6:8 is a lie in the context of the Bible. Unless of course one argues that killing the entire families of those who worship other Gods is "Justice".

And this is a problem right here. Because that's often the argument that is indeed given. It's "Justice" to kill those who don't worship this God.

Join ISIS and kill everyone who refuses to worship Allah!

And also kill everyone who refuses to obey the commandments and directives of Allah.

Because killing all those people is "Justice".

ISIS has been throwing gay people off the roofs of tall building in the name of Allah and "Justice".

ISIS is justified in the mass killings of Christians who practice the Idol worship of Jesus placing Jesus BEFORE Allah.

In fact, anyone who claims to "follow Jesus" should be joining ISIS.

Why? Because Jesus has proclaimed that every jot and tittle of the Old Testament law shall in no wise pass from law until heaven and earth pass.

And ISIS is upholding the laws of the Old Testament. They are killing the gays, stoning adulterers to death in the streets, and beheading those evil Christians who worship Jesus ABOVE Allah whilst refusing to uphold every jot and tittle of the law of Allah.

Those who are sincere about worshiping the God of the Bible should join ISIS today.

Only ISIS upholds the laws of Yahweh and Allah. Kill the heathens, Kill the infidels, and worship Allah to the highest.

~~~~~~~

Please note that I personally don't consider either Yahweh or Allah to be God. So please don't join ISIS! They are nothing more than a group of insane extremists who are using horrible ancient mythologies as an excuse to condone inhumane crimes against humanity.

Join humanity instead! Renounce the ancient myths of Allah, and Yahweh.

Become a rational sane atheist today.

[Elijah John]

Please note that I personally don't consider either Yahweh or Allah to be God. So please don't join ISIS! They are nothing more than a group of insane extremists who are using horrible ancient mythologies as an excuse to condone inhumane crimes against humanity.

Join humanity instead! Renounce the ancient myths of Allah, and Yahweh.

Become a rational sane atheist today.

Understand your disclaimer of ISIS, but politely decline your invitation to atheism

We differ in our assesement on what is the primary theme of the Bible, and what is the character of the God of the Bible.

I say the nasty stuff is out of character for the God of the Bible, and the accounts of Him supposedly doing that stuff, or ordering that stuff, that dung, is not in keeping with his character.

The very character that is established in His own Ten Commandments, and His own Golden Rules, which are found in both the OT and the NT. And the character that hopefully will be even more firmly established with the addition more positive OT verses on this thread. Care to go against your grain and add a few positive ones?

Now how to account for the nasty stuff? That is another topic that has been covered on more than a few threads here.

[Zzyzx]

.

I say the nasty stuff is out of character for the God of the Bible, and the accounts of Him supposedly doing that stuff, or ordering that stuff, that dung, is not in keeping with his character.

How does one determine from a third-party description what is "out of character" and what is "in character" for the God or a person who is reported to say and do some things that we regard as "good" and some that we regard as atrocious?

Let's say we have a description of a person that includes some very good points and some very negative or bad points. Can either be said to be his/her character? Do we attempt to second-guess the description and decide that it incorrectly describes the person in one direction or another?

Do we set aside the bad / negative points as being "out of character" – or do we set aside the good points for the same reason? Or would we be wise to consider the possibility that the person has major psychological disorders?

Do we hire the person for a very critical position or form a partnership with them based on the description?

[Elijah John]

.

I say the nasty stuff is out of character for the God of the Bible, and the accounts of Him supposedly doing that stuff, or ordering that stuff, that dung, is not in keeping with his character.

How does one determine from a third-party description what is "out of character" and what is "in character" for the God or a person who is reported to say and do some things that we regard as "good" and some that we regard as atrocious?

Let's say we have a description of a person that includes some very good points and some very negative or bad points. Can either be said to be his/her character? Do we attempt to second-guess the description and decide that it incorrectly describes the person in one direction or another?

Do we set aside the bad / negative points as being "out of character" – or do we set aside the good points for the same reason? Or would we be wise to consider the possibility that the person has major psychological disorders?

Do we hire the person for a very critical position or form a partnership with them based on the description?

Two conflicting characters are described in the Bible and attributed to Jehovah. It is up to the individual to decide which is the "real" Jehovah. A valid case can be made for either one.

Millions of Jews and Christians have decided the overall character of Jehovah is loving and benevolent. They have as much right to this conclusion as the dissenting opposite.

[Divine Insight]

We differ in our assesement on what is the primary theme of the Bible, and what is the character of the God of the Bible.

I say the nasty stuff is out of character for the God of the Bible, and the accounts of Him supposedly doing that stuff, or ordering that stuff, that dung, is not in keeping with his character.

None of this matters.

The Torah, the Christian Bible, and the Qur'an have already been printed and historically 'carved in stone' and canonized.

If you disagree with this canon, then you are rejecting this canon as correctly describing God.

If you want to claim that a canon could be constructed that describes a decent God then it's up to you do create such a canon, publish it, and then try to sell the world on using that canon as the foundation for their theologies.

Until then, if you support "The Biblical God", then you are supporting the entire biblical canon, whether you intend to or not.

Your claim to be personally rejecting parts of it that you deem to be immoral, has no meaning to anyone until you can provide us with a consistent canon that does not contain all the dung that you claim is immoral.

I would strongly suggest that you actually try doing this. It might prove to be far more difficult than you might first imagine it to be.

By the time you are finished "tossing out what you deem to be dung" you are going to end up with a totally different religious paradigm to be sure.

At that point why even bother calling it "Biblical"? or "Christian"?

Don't you want to even toss out the miraculous virgin birth of Jesus?

Your "Christianity" would end up with no Mother Mary as the woman who gave birth to the Son of God. No need for any "Star of Bethlehem". Not need for three wise mean bringing gifts to the new born baby Jesus. No need for King Herod to kill all the babies. No God speaking from the clouds saying, "This is my beloved Son", and so on.

Certainly no Jewish Torah that contains all the brutal commands to stone sinners, and heathens to death.

In short, what's left?

Your "Bible" would be extremely different from any of the Abrahamic religions.

In fact, would your "Bible" even contain the God of Abraham? A God who commanded Abraham to murder his own son just to test to see if Abraham would actually do what God commands?

Would your "Bible" contain the Book of Job where Satan makes a bet with God and God takes Satan up on the bet and gives Satan permission to do all manner of Evil to Job and his family?

I would like to see exactly what your "Biblical Canon" would even look like. And until you actually write one up and publish it I don't see where your claim of a "Biblical" God makes any sense at all.

[Elijah John]

I would like to see exactly what your "Biblical Canon" would even look like. And until you actually write one up and publish it I don't see where your claim of a "Biblical" God makes any sense at all.

It's all there DI, the good and the bad. But if you notice, both Judaism and Christianity have been built on the good, and pretty much ignore, or rationalize the bad, or reinterpret it as "symbolic".

Now, if you want to get into my rejecting Paul's theology and the finer points of Christianity, that is another debate.

This one is about the character of Jehovah. And the challenge to find verses in the OT to support that positive character.

I notice you didn't accept my challenge to go against the grain of your own conclusion that the character of Jehovah is bad. .

Can't say I blame you, IF you are not open to learning more about the postive nature of Jehovah, and want to maintain your position.

The challenge was meant to be instructive, and I admit, to demonstrate that the good side of Jehovah as a Biblical character DOES exist, and not just nasty side.