Where did Christ go?

[marco]

In Acts 1 we have:

And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold two men stood by them in white apparel.

Which also said: Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus which is taken up from you into heaven shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.


The above raises a few questions.

Does the location of heaven in the sky suggest the story is mere fabrication?
In what possible way could Jesus physically vanish above the clouds?
Is the appearance of "two men" in white simply a "deus ex machina" device to explain what happened - at least partially?
Would listeners reasonably suppose that the return of Jesus is more than 2000 years away?
A reasonable person would dismiss all this as nonsense. But why, then, has it been accepted for centuries?

[Elijah John]

Consider the alternative, but related scenario.

Jesus died, rose from the dead, and stuck around.

Either for eternity, or only to die again, presumably at an old age of natural causes.

That is IF the authorities didn't get him again.

Living on earth for eternity would draw some attention, especially if he didn't age beyond 33.

[JLB32168]

Does the location of heaven in the sky suggest the story is mere fabrication? In what possible way could Jesus physically vanish above the clouds?

Assuming the supernatural exists, why does this present a problem? If one doesn’t believe it exists then clearly this did not happen.
I’m not sure there’s much else to be debated since the rest of these questions are easy if the supernatural exists, but false if it doesn’t and the existence of supernatural cannot be proved.

There seems to be quite a limited repertoire of atheist and other skeptic arguments here, Marco – that of “This belief requires the supernatural, which cannot be proved; therefore, belief in these things is silly and on par with belief in fairies or unicorns.�

[Talishi]

There seems to be quite a limited repertoire of atheist and other skeptic arguments here, Marco – that of “This belief requires the supernatural, which cannot be proved; therefore, belief in these things is silly and on par with belief in fairies or unicorns.�

In the beginning heaven was a solid barrier that divided the waters below from the waters above, and which contained the sun and moon and planets and stars. Copernicus postulated that the sun was the center of the universe, and the Earth and other planets revolved around it. Galileo confirmed this by seeing the gibbous phase of Venus, which could only occur if Earth and Venus were on opposite sides of the sun. Catholic clergymen refused to even look in the eyepiece. Voyager II is now 15 light-hours from Earth and has not encountered heaven. The current thinking is that heaven is in another dimension, or p-brane, or somesuch. Always somewhere where science can't quite reach it. Heaven is in constant retreat.

[JLB32168]

In the beginning heaven was a solid barrier that divided the waters below from the waters above, and which contained the sun and moon and planets and stars.

I am a former seminarian who holds an M. Div. in Eastern Orthodox theology. I’m well aware of the Creation narrative. I subscribe to Augustine’s and Philo Juddaeus’ views that the creation story is metaphorical in nature. They taught this in a time when belief in a slavishly literal interpretation of creation narrative would have been perfectly acceptable. I find the timbre of your response to be insulting.

Catholic clergymen refused to even look in the eyepiece.

I guess this is supposed to be important. I’m sorry to disappoint. Had the RC clergymen deferred to one of their most regarded saints then they wouldn’t have been so adamantine in their views. The EOC has never placed too much emphasis on the how God did it – only that God did it.

Heaven is in constant retreat.

Perhaps it is in the West. It’s not in the Christian East, which always held that there are plural heavens – the sky, that which is beyond it, and an immaterial ethereal plane of existence that isn’t a part of our present existence (i.e. The actual Greek of the Lord’s prayer is “our Father who is in the heavens.�). It has taught this for centuries before anything left Cape Canaveral.

[Talishi]

I subscribe to Augustine’s and Philo Juddaeus’ views that the creation story is metaphorical in nature. They taught this in a time when belief in a slavishly literal interpretation of creation narrative would have been perfectly acceptable.

"Let us, then, omit the conjectures of men who know not what they say, when they speak of the nature and origin of the human race. For some hold the same opinion regarding men that they hold regarding the world itself, that they have always been... They are deceived, too, by those highly mendacious documents which profess to give the history of many thousand years, though, reckoning by the sacred writings, we find that not 6000 years have yet passed." - Augustine, Of the Falseness of the History Which Allots Many Thousand Years to the World’s Past, The City of God, Book 12: Chapt. 10

I find the timbre of your response to be insulting.

Imagine the timber of my response if I wasn't holding back.

[JehovahsWitness]

In Acts 1 we have:
In what possible way could Jesus physically vanish above the clouds?

If we are to presume that heaven exists as a spiritual realm, governed by an Almighty God, then it seems perfectly possible that God could transport Jesus in any direction should he so wish. After all if humans can create objects that can lift of the ground, presuming God exists (which I suppose we are for the sake of argument) then it is reasonable and logical that God can at least do the same.

Logic,

JW

[Talishi]

If we are to presume that heaven exists as a spiritual realm, governed by an Almighty God, then it seems perfectly possible that God could transport Jesus in any direction should he so wish.

Adults believe this stuff, in 2016 CE? I suppose Santa Claus can bag millions of houses in one night because he has a time machine and can keep resetting the clock before the sun rears its ugly head.

[bluethread]

The current thinking is that heaven is in another dimension, or p-brane, or somesuch. Always somewhere where science can't quite reach it. Heaven is in constant retreat.

If one wishes to state it in the language of modern scientific humanist orthodoxy, one could say it that way, and indeed, in that view, the heavens are in constant retreat. However, if one takes the view that man and his understanding is merely part of the universe and not the entirety of it, it is not difficult to see that the kingdom of heaven is all around us.

The kingdom of heaven is like the clouds of the sky. From a distance they appear solid, like cotton candy, but if one examines them closely they disappear into water vapor. It is true they are water vapor, but they are much more, holding electromagnetic charge and reflect or deflect photons.

Again, the kingdom of heaven is like a rainbow, that appears solid form a distance, but disappears into water vapor as one attempts to approach it. The kingdom of heaven is not a place or dimension to be discovered and analyzed, but a reality to be experienced.

I believe that the purpose of the ascension was not to affirm a view that heaven is in the sky, but to impress upon the viewers the concept of coming and going.

[JLB32168]

“Let us, then, omit the conjectures of men who know not what . . .[. . .]. Of the Falseness of the History Which Allots Many Thousand Years to the World’s Past, The City of God, Book 12: Chapt. 10

He’s talking about the creation of man – not the creation as evidenced by the subtitle How These Persons are to Be Answered, Who Find Fault with the Creation of Man on the Score of Its Recent Date. Augustine says, “For the past and boundless eternity during which God abstained from creating man is so great, that, compare it with what vast and untold number of ages you please, so long as there is a definite conclusion of this term of time, it is not even as if you compared the minutest drop of water with the ocean that everywhere flows around the globe.

I suppose that one could say that Augustine means the creation of all things when he means the creation of man, but that would run counter to the same author who also said that the angels were created with the creation of material things and that they have existed from the ages.

It also seems to exclude Augustine’s extensive knowledge of Philo Juddaeus’ Hellenistic Judaism (“Augustine� Encyclopaedia Judaica), where Philo says, “When, therefore, Moses says, ‘God completed his works on the sixth day,’ we must understand that he is speaking not of a number of days, but that he takes six as a perfect number.�