Divine intervention for proper understanding

[Justin108]

Everything, possibly short of a telephone directory, is open for debate. An omnipotent God may well have good reason for inspiring a book that requires His own intervensioin to be accurately understood as He wants.

In this regard the book of Matthew in the bible contains the following observation attributed to Jesus Christ; when asked why he (Jesus) didn't speak in plain straightforward terms but rather in illustrations (the interpretation of which would be open to debate) his reply is recorded below:

"“Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?� 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it"

IF the Bible is accepted as the word of GOD, it is accepted as clear.

Any unclearness then resides in the creature. Every statement that coincides perfectly with the character and plans of GOD can be perverted and subverted to mean the opposite of HIS meaning, causing confusion in some...in other words, nothing is sacrosanct to those locked in sin. That the world of GOD is taken to be incomprehensible to those locked in sin is the orthodox position of Christianity.

Christians often claim (or imply) that in order to properly understand the Bible, one needs divine guidance and that the reason atheists find flaws in the Bible is simply because they lack this divine guidance as they do not allow the Holy Spirit to guide them.

But how do Christians know that their disapproval and rejection of the Quran is not for similar reasons? What if you reject the Quran because you do not allow the Spirit of Allah to guide you in the proper understanding of Islam? Why is the rejection of other holy texts due to their content perfectly justified, but the rejection of the Bible due to its content is a flaw in the reader? How can you be sure your rejection of the Quran is not the result of your misunderstanding of the Quran?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

An omnipotent God may well have good reason for inspiring a book that requires His own intervensioin to be accurately understood as He wants.

In which case, this God supposedly blaming me and punishing me in some way for NOT understanding/believing his book...I would call, well, evil.
Imagine if I hand Justin a smartphone, that has a message from me to him on it. Only, he can't read it unless I keep my finger down on the fingerprint reader. If my finger isn't there, either the message doesn't display or what is displayed is garbled...would it be correct for me to blame Justin for not understanding what I have to say to him, all because I didn't keep my finger on the reader?

So JW, what is this good reason? Can you tell me why your God is seemingly actively preventing me from understanding his book? Do you know what this reason is? Why call the reason good if you do not know?

That the world of GOD is taken to be incomprehensible to those locked in sin is the orthodox position of Christianity.

Orthodox hmm...but I could've worn that the orthodox view of Christianity is also that ALL humans are sinners/locked in sin/born with original sin. So...the word of God is incomprehensible to ALL, including people such as Jehovah'sWitness and ttruscott?

[theophile]

[Replying to Justin108]

"“Why is it you speak to them by the use of illustrations?� 11 In reply he said: “To YOU it is granted to understand the sacred secrets of the kingdom of the heavens, but to those people it is not granted. 12 For whoever has, more will be given him and he will be made to abound; but whoever does not have, even what he has will be taken from him. 13 This is why I speak to them by the use of illustrations, because, looking, they look in vain, and hearing, they hear in vain, neither do they get the sense of it"

Where does it mention divine intervention in all of this?

The only "divine intervention" is Jesus himself, speaking in parables.

His point, I think, is not that God will give or take insight to whomever God chooses, but rather that those who already have some insight will get more from the teachings... They will be able to unpack the meaning of the cryptic verses.

In other words, you need a modicum of wisdom to get wisdom. You need to meet certain readiness criteria: i.e. have an open heart, to understand the wisdom of these texts...

It's like Paul says: the wisdom of God is foolishness to those whose hearts are closed (paraphrasing).

Thus Jesus tells us the only law is love. Not selfish love but a true love and care for all things. Once we open our hearts thus, we can start to understand. Otherwise everything Jesus says is going to sound absurd. ("Give away all my wealth?! Treat vagrants as honored guests?! Wash the feet of servants?!?! Take care of a Samaritan!?!?!?!?!...)

[Justin108]

His point, I think, is not that God will give or take insight to whomever God chooses, but rather that those who already have some insight will get more from the teachings

Where does one get this initial insight from?

Can this apply to Islam as well? What if you reject Islam simply because you lack the insight to properly understand it?

have an open heart, to understand the wisdom of these texts..

.
What if you reject Islam because you lack an open heart?

[theophile]

[Replying to Justin108]

Where does one get this initial insight from?

Evidence is all around you. Your whole life is a testament.

If you approach others with a closed heart, they are more likely to respond in kind. Thus, even what you have will be taken away in the final analysis of that approach.

But conversely, if you approach others with an open heart, they are more likely to respond in kind. Thus, what you have will abound.

That, I think, is the fundamental logic of the bible, reiterated from the beginning to the end. It is also the fundamental logic of life.

We don't need God to give us that insight.

Can this apply to Islam as well?

My assumption (I haven't read Islamic scriptures) is that they are in the same spirit. I'm in no position to debate that though.

What if you reject Islam because you lack an open heart?

Then according to the logic I just described, Muslims will be more likely to reject you, and close their hearts to you.

As a result, life will become harder and nastier for us all. (Even what you have will be taken away.)

And isn't that precisely where we find ourselves because of our closed-heartedness towards each other? A harsh reality that may very well amplify under the current trend toward closure and insularity that we see happening across the world? Not to mention the extremely closed-hearted policies that have been proposed toward Muslims by, e.g. America's President-elect?

Again, the evidence for this insight is all around you. You don't need God to have it. But you do need to be in the spirit of openness, i.e. have this modicum of wisdom, if you want to understand biblical scriptures, and not reject them as foolishness.

Hence, the only law is love. All else builds from there.

[Justin108]

Evidence is all around you. Your whole life is a testament.

Give me a few specific examples. This answer is far too vague for me.

How do you know this evidence points to Christianity and not Islam or Hinduism?

My assumption (I haven't read Islamic scriptures) is that they are in the same spirit. I'm in no position to debate that though.

Why haven't you read the Quran? And what about the Hindu Vedas? Do you believe they are in the same spirit? Are all religions in the same spirit?

[theophile]

[Replying to post 6 by Justin108]

Give me a few specific examples. This answer is far too vague for me.

I gave an example with Islamic extremism. What do you think is at the bottom of that if not the historically closed-hearted policies of Western countries? i.e. them acting out of self-interest without an open-heart for everyone in the world? Policies that cause the exact same closed-heartedness in those who are wronged, and consistent with this, extremist behavior?

People can't understand the wisdom of scripture because it means accepting the hard logic of having a truly open-heart, i.e. of not acting out of self-interest...

Did someone ever treat you poorly out of their own self-interest? Was your response to want to treat them the same? Of course it was, for that is the wisdom of the world (it is to think for oneself, and to respond in kind). This is opposed to the "foolish" wisdom of scripture which would say to treat them with love, even though they treated you poorly. It is the foolish logic of having an open heart. And it is entering into this logic that is the precondition of understanding the wisdom of scripture...

How do you know this evidence points to Christianity and not Islam or Hinduism?

I never said it didn't. In fact, I assumed that Islam at least was in a similar spirit. (It does affirm Jesus as a prophet and root itself in Abraham.)

Why haven't you read the Quran? And what about the Hindu Vedas? Do you believe they are in the same spirit? Are all religions in the same spirit?

Because I have more than enough to work through with the bible. I can't answer your last question but I am inclined to say no.

[Justin108]

Give me a few specific examples. This answer is far too vague for me.

I gave an example with Islamic extremism...

No I mean give me examples of the evidence that leads to the insight needed to properly understand scripture as you mentioned in post 3. How do we come by this insight?

I never said it didn't. In fact, I assumed that Islam at least was in a similar spirit. (It does affirm Jesus as a prophet and root itself in Abraham.)

Ok and what about Hinduism?

Why haven't you read the Quran? And what about the Hindu Vedas? Do you believe they are in the same spirit? Are all religions in the same spirit?

Because I have more than enough to work through with the bible. I can't answer your last question but I am inclined to say no.

If a Hindu told you he has more than enough to work with in his religion, would you agree with him? Or do you think he needs Christianity?

[theophile]

[Replying to Justin108]

No I mean give me examples of the evidence that leads to the insight needed to properly understand scripture as you mentioned in post 3. How do we come by this insight?

That's what I gave you. Islamic extremism. Your own experience of being taken advantage of / treated poorly. Your own experience of being treated with kindness and respect, counter to all expectations even...

The only insight, and resultant mindset that you need to adopt, is that love is the way. We need to think beyond ourselves, and let go of the "wisdom of the world" which is to think for oneself and one's own only, and to hurt whomever along the way. You can't apply the self-interested calculus used by the world to determine the "sense" of something ("homo economicus" if you will) to the bible, and hope to determine the sense of it. It won't work.

If you can't accept that and "put on" that insight based on examples such as I provided (notably, your own life experience and broader awareness of what the harmful result of a self-interested approach is, versus a loving approach), then you will not be in the proper frame of mind to understand scripture...

You will call Jesus' suggestion that we wash the feet of servants foolish, since servants should be washing our feet.

You will call Jesus' teachings that we surpass the law as dangerous, since the law is there to protect our self-interests.

You will see the God who floods the earth as acting out of self-interest, and call that God a maniac, versus seeing a last resort and perhaps regretted action out of the deepest love for all life.

It will all seem like foolishness unless you approach it with the logic of love.

Love is the first principle so to speak. The fundamental law. The key to everything that God promises, does, and Jesus declares of the Kingdom in his cryptic verses. (Instead of philosophy as the "love of wisdom", we should be thinking in terms of the "wisdom of love"...)

Ok and what about Hinduism?

Why do you keep pushing other religions? What are you trying to accomplish? I told you I'm not familiar enough with these to discuss them. And I've already declared my extreme openness to finding wisdom in them. I don't think that the bible is the sole purveyor of this wisdom by any means.

If a Hindu told you he has more than enough to work with in his religion, would you agree with him? Or do you think he needs Christianity?

That's fine with me. My claim (and presumably theirs) should not limit our ability to discuss these matters at an abstracted level. Free of the particular trappings of any one so-called "religion."

Look, the bible, to me, is a vehicle. It conveys something. Other vehicles such as the Vedas can convey that same thing. We're all looking for wisdom through these texts and should be able to discuss them at that level. Again, abstracted from the texts themselves.

But again, I don't know if the wisdom conveyed by those vehicles is what I've classified as the "wisdom of the world" or "the wisdom of love"... I'm not precluding the latter but I just haven't given them the time.

[Justin108]

That's what I gave you. Islamic extremism. Your own experience of being taken advantage of / treated poorly. Your own experience of being treated with kindness and respect, counter to all expectations even...

So this experience will somehow help us interpret books like Genesis or Revelation? How?

Why do you keep pushing other religions? What are you trying to accomplish?

To demonstrate that any argument you use to support Christianity can be used to support other religions, yet you still reject other religions. I'm trying to figure out why you do not apply this same reasoning to other religions.

I told you I'm not familiar enough with these to discuss them

If religion is in fact a pathway to truth, why is it you limit your religious investigations to Christianity?

Look, the bible, to me, is a vehicle. It conveys something. Other vehicles such as the Vedas can convey that same thing.

Except the Bible explicitly tells us to stay away from Hinduism when it says we shall worship no other gods.