How does Jesus's "sacrifice" make any kind of sens

[rikuoamero]

This is for the theists, of course.

Just how does it make sense? What is the debt? Why is there a debt, and how is it to be repaid?

According to standard Christian theology, there was a tree with some fruit that was forbidden to the first humans. The fruit was eaten anyway, and some punishments were handed out.
Surely that should have been the end of it right? But no, according to Christians, someone just HAD to die. Which is strange, considering that nothing of what Adam and Eve did had anything to do with death; the loss of their supposed immortality was not done by them directly, but as a part of the punishment handed out by their god.
Even so...even if we ignore that...how does Jesus dying 'solve' that, or mitigate that?

Would it have worked if Jesus had lain down in a bathtub and slit his wrists? Or hung himself, entirely of his own volition?
I'm guessing no...I'm guessing that what just HAD to be done was for some corrupt priests (were they corrupt? Apparently they were only obeying their god's laws!) called for his execution and had him nailed to a piece of wood, with Jesus not resisting in any way.
So what does that accomplish? What does that show? From what I can see, it only shows that (some) people can kill, are ready and willing to do so, in the name of their god even if (apparently) this "isn't" what God wants (but it is!)

Now, I'm going to guess I'm going to get answers that ignore most, if not all, of what I said. I will be told that the only acceptable sacrifice was Jesus, since he's a sinless, perfect human. Notice that I didn't comment on that part.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 30 by JehovahsWitness]

I am sorry, but when will Christians see that death and sin are undefeated and more to the point; unaltered?

That if you ignore the assumption of sin, then it ceases to exist entirely, more effectively then creating the need for a savior.

That, since God it timeless, there is no 'Adamic' sin, since God is ever present, Jesus sacrificed to God, and he knew it would happen.

Only you Jews and Christians sin, the rest of us do not. You believe you sin, we believe we do not, you must respect our beliefs, if we are to respect yours.

Are you beginning to understand the untenable relation the Bible has to reality?
It is all based on assumptions and definitions. If you don't assume and abrogate definitions for reality, the religion(s), melt away like snow.

[JehovahsWitness]

You believe you sin, we believe we do not, you must respect our beliefs, if we are to respect yours.

Does not believing in sin mean one doesn't sin?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 439#893439

That, since God it timeless, there is no 'Adamic' sin...

I'm sorry I do not understand the logic behind this statement. Can you explain what you mean by "God is timeless" and why even if this were the case it would mean adamic sin could not exist.

[Divine Insight]

WHY DID ADAM AND EVES DEATH NOT END THE MATTER?

• ♦ ANSWER Because issues were raised that needed to be settled for the well being of the entire universe. And because Adam and Eve had children, and their children would suffer the consequences of their actions unless someone intervened to remedy the situation.

JW

That answer is utterly absurd. If that's the basis of your religion you religion has no merit at all.

If someone needed to intervene to remedy the situation then Jesus was way too little too late. You religion is basically asking us to believe that this God waited for thousands of years before sending Jesus to intervene, and in the interim he was commanding men to commit genocide, drowning people out in a Great Flood, and doing all manner of what would have necessarily been nothing more than a bunch of totally useful nonsense since, according to your answer the only remedy was to have Jesus intervene to remedy the situation.

This is no "answer" the questions concerning Christianity.

The fact you personally have bought into that answer is not impressive. Apparently you aren't recognizing the myriad of problems associated with that answer.

If that were a valid answer, then Jesus should have intervened right there in the Garden of Eden at the time of the fall. Waiting for thousands of years whilst God tries all manner of totally useless and failed curses on humanity in the interim violates the answer that you are offering for an apology for this theology.

So your answer makes no sense, and certainly doesn't justify Christian theology.

[Divine Insight]

Adam and Eve were created in a way that made them perfectly capable of obeying God's law if they chose to. They were rightly held fully responsible for their sin.

This doesn't help the problem that you already have with Jesus taking thousands of years to intervene whilst Yahweh intervenes in totally useless and futile ways in the interim.

So any further excuses you give for this failed religion are moot.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 30 by JehovahsWitness]

Jesus died to eradicate the effects of "inherited" Adamic sin so that should they choose to, it would be possible for a human descendant of Adam to live obtain everlasting life.

Okay and how does the one enable the other?
The problem I'm having is that I'm trying to envision this in the real world, and it quite simply doesn't make sense. The closest analogy I can think of is my ancestor disobeys an order from the leader of a country and is subsequently exiled; said leader wants to have the man's descendants choose whether or not to return to the country, but for some reason, when I try to apply Christian belief...the leader is either unable to or unwilling to (despite me being told he actually IS willing and IS able) do that unless another descendent of the man who disobeyed is willing to go through suicide by cop.

In that situation, what is honestly stopping the leader from just allowing the descendants in? What does the guy who gets executed actually accomplish?

[Divine Insight]

HOW CAN THE DEATH OF ONE MAN COVER FOR THE SINS OF SO MANY?

♦ ANSWER Because a single act by one individual can have a dramatic effect on numerous others. For example, a skilled pilot might make a single wise decision and avoid an accident that would effect hundreds of people. In short, the number that benefit can be disproportionate to the benefactor. Winston Churchill once said "Never was so much owed by so many to so few", in the case of the ransom, the "so few" becomes "one".

But according to Christianity Jesus didn't die. He rose from his grave after a mere three days. And then ascended to heaven being granted the gift of eternal life as the King of Kings and Lord of Lords over all of heaven and earth.

That's hardly the wages of sin in this religion. In fact, being risen from death and granted eternal life in heaven is what every Christian dreams of. This is supposed to be the reward of saints, or the undeserving evil people who have accepted Jesus as their sacrificial penal substitute.

So Jesus himself never paid anything for any sins at all.

Christianity is an extremely failed mythology that was never well-thought-out at all. It clearly grew from demigod myths, of which there were quite many long before the fables of Christ.

So the fables of Christianity aren't even unique. Christianity is just a form of paganism that was incorporated into Hebrew mythology and also clearly moved from polytheism to monotheism and then back to semi-polytheism via the Trinity when Christians realized that it can't be made into a true monotheism.

It's just an extremely flawed collection of incompatible tales.

And you can't say that Jesus "died" whilst simultaneously claiming that he;s alive and well sitting at the right-hand of God in heaven. That's reward of saints, it's not the ransom demanded of Yahweh for those who sin.

So Jesus cannot be said to have paid for the sins of anyone.

[Divine Insight]

CONCLUSION Jesus can never again exist as a human he gave human life up for mankind, but that does not mean the original transaction is invalidated because his Father chose to reward him with something far superior to human life, namely immortal heavenly life as a spirit in a glorified spirit body.


JW

And now you are requiring that God has limitations in what he can do. What makes you say that Jesus can never again exist as a human?

Are you rejecting the idea that "With God all things are possible"?

You now have a God that you yourself have placed limitations on just in an effort to try to apologize for this failed theology and try to justify it by placing limitations on what God can do.

This is a serious sign that your theological apologies are running out of gas.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 32 by JehovahsWitness]

Does not believing in sin mean one doesn't sin?

Nice, except, perfection is an arbitrary and impossible state as well. You define God's acts and so on as being 'perfect,' because a book written by non-comprehending goat-herders tells you so.

So, I believe I can't sin, because like God, it doesn't exist. Sin doesn't exist without God. But to compliment your rationale - perfection does NOT imply sin at all either.
Your further argument hangs on unjustified assumptions by uncomprehendng goat-herders.

I have a more modern perspective than those goat herders, who weren't capable of expressing the concept to begin with, and I find those same actions by "God" not perfect, but more frequently; atrocious.

As to God existing in all times... you don't believe this? I thought he was all powerful and all knowing - knowing the future in the past, and contrary-wise.

Therefore when we saw Jesus die, is meaningless, because God knew it would happen, before the creation, right?

[Bust Nak]

Jesus died to eradicate the effects of "inherited" Adamic sin so that should they choose to, it would be possible for a human descendant of Adam to live obtain everlasting life.

Why would it be otherwise impossible for a human descendant of Adam to obtain everlasting life, given our sins are paid for in full with our own blood?

All human descendants of Adam have inherited from him a weakness to commit sin, thus all humans will eventually without exception, sin and the penalty for sin is death. When a human dies they have paid the penalty for the sins they committed during their lives. They have not been freed from their inherited Adamic condition ("inherited sin").

To illustrate, suppose a man is an alcoholic. In a drunken state he breaks someone's window. When he is forced to pay for the window, does that mean he is no longer an alcoholic?

No, but why would that matter when the thing in the way of the reward is the broken window, and not alcoholism? The window is paid for, the matter is considered closed, giving us access to our everlasting life.

If Adamic/Inherited sin is the inherited condition, the weakness, the tendency to commit sin. Only sinless humans have the right to life, life was given on this condition murdering a man is a sinful action. When a person dies he has been punished (with the death penalty) for all his sinful actions (great or small). Let's say a murderer dies, if he were to be resurrected he would no longer be held accountable for any murders he committed during his life, however he would STILL be imperfect and so it would still be inevitable that he again sins (although not necessarily murder). There is therefore no way for a human descendant of Adam to live a sinless life and escape death.

Right, the point is, we are according to you, at the point of death or immediately after, sin free and therefore qualify for everlasting life. Where as the typical / mainstream Christianity says our own death doesn't make us sin free and that's why we need Jesus.

Jesus came to "free" mankind from this hopeless bondage to sin and death, so the children of Adam could eventually live forever in a sinless state.

It seems to be you are trying to tell me that being sinless isn't enough for heaven.

[rikuoamero]

Only sinless humans have the right to life, life was given on this condition murdering a man is a sinful action.

So then Jesus being killed should have disqualified at the very least those involved in his execution, if not all of humanity.
...Still not seeing where killing a man is sinful in your eyes, but somehow it still "pays the debt" or whatever terminology you want to use.

There is therefore no way for a human descendant of Adam to live a sinless life and escape death.

...Jesus was a human descendant of Adam, was he not?