The character of Jesus

[Elijah John]

Someone on another thread recommended a book entitled "The Bad Jesus".

For debate, assuming Jesus existed and is accurately portrayed in the New Testament, what is the character of Jesus?

Good?

Bad?

Perfect?

Righteous (good) but flawed and imperfect? i.e., human? (even the best of us are not pefect)

A mix?

Please support your answer, beyond what any NT writer says about him. Do Gospel accounts of Jesus' deeds or own words support what (for example) Paul or the author of Hebrews say about the character of Jesus? {edit to add} or what the Church or other apologiists/theologians/preachers say about Jesus?

Does Jesus himself ever claim to be perfect?

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Someone on another thread recommended a book entitled "The Bad Jesus".

I haven't read it yet, but I'm familiar with its author, Hector Avalos. Avalos, like I, is a former Christian. He's also a recognized Bible scholar who teaches at Iowa State University. I have read his exposé on Bible scholarship, The End of Biblical Studies. Avalos is an amazing writer who can penetrate deeply into the Bible exposing its many flaws.

For debate, assuming Jesus existed and is accurately portrayed in the New Testament, what is the character of Jesus?

Many people seem to misunderstand Jesus as this wonderful man whose mission was to teach us to love. While it is true that he is quoted as using the word "love" in his rhetoric, his message was actually to strip us of our feelings of goodness and adequacy. He made up the illness and offered himself as the sole cure, you might say. His superficial talk of love and forgiveness quickly vanished any time he was challenged by skeptics. As anybody can see in Matthew 23, Jesus never bothered to love his own enemies or turned the other cheek but proceeded to smash any cheek that dared to utter anything that served to critique his claims.

What I find mist disgusting about him is his cruel indoctrination of gullible, desperate people into his sick doctrine of eternal hellfire. This evil has plagued humankind for almost two-thousand years resulting in paranoia, hatred, and violence. If there was no "gospel," then there surely would have never been an inquisition.

Do Gospel accounts of Jesus' deeds or own words support what (for example) Paul or the author of Hebrews say about the character of Jesus?

You'd need to more specific about what the epistles say about Jesus, but we do see a different portrayal of Jesus in Paul's propaganda over the propaganda of the gospels. Paul focused on an unearthly Jesus while the gospels portray Jesus as relatively down-to-earth. In both cases, however, we are to bow to the indoctrination and not dare to scrutinize it or "insult" it.

So Christianity has accomplished the supreme coup d'état insulting people as sinners worthy of hell while having even those who tell the simple truth about it branded as heretics who "insult" the faith!

Does Jesus himself ever claim to be perfect?

Well, I might get into trouble for "insulting" Jesus if I tell the truth, but just allow me for now to say that if Jesus was real, then he was surely mentally ill suffering from delusions of grandeur.

[JehovahsWitness]

Please support your answer, beyond what any NT writer says about him

May I clarify: Are you asking only for posts based on Gnostic writings, Jewish sources and modern day commentaries?

The Toledot Yeshu (History of Jesus), composed sometime in late antiquity on the basis of earlier traditions ... presented Jesus as an illegitimate-born, apostate Jew who practiced sorcery and sought to lead Israel astray.

Joseph Klausner’s ‘Jesus of Nazareth’ (1922)

I'm sure there are many more such commentaries, especially of our modern era. Islam is for the most part quite respectful of the character of Jesus but I'm sure with a little research one could find volumes of modern and post modern sources that paint a suitably unflattering picture of Jesus of Nazareth.

JW

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

Minimally, righteously good, maybe perfect...

As God's Son, one part of Trinity, I find it hard to assume that Jesus is supposed to be anything less than perfect as He sits next to God in Heaven...

True? "Christian at heart!"

[Elijah John]

Please support your answer, beyond what any NT writer says about him

May I clarify: Are you asking only for posts based on Gnostic writings, Jewish sources and modern day commentaries?

Good question, and to clarify...

No, I wasn't even thinking of extra-Biblical accounts of Jesus. Let's stick to the Canon, more specifically Gospel accounts of Jesus own words and behavior as fair game. The OP asks, however, that the debate goes beyond theological claims made by Paul and the author of Hebrews about the perfection of Jesus as the unblemished "lamb of God". That kind of thing. Or the visionary claims of John of Patmos put on Jesus lips about the risen Christ. Let's stick with the pre-Easter, Jesus of the Gospels.

[Elijah John]

Well, I might get into trouble for "insulting" Jesus if I tell the truth, but just allow me for now to say that if Jesus was real, then he was surely mentally ill suffering from delusions of grandeur.

Gospel evidence please. Also, as I replied JW, the OP is not intrested in claims written in the Epistles about Jesus.

Let's all just stick to what Jesus does and says in the Gospels.

Don't worry about being critical in "telling the truth" as you read it, just remeber to be civil in the process.

It's hard in a topic like this to avoid the temptations to preach on the one hand, or rant on the other.

Trying to be objective and not emotional should keep us all "safe" and within the forum rules and guidelines.

[bluethread]

I believe that He was the embodiment of HaTorah. His life unto death is an example of how we can live a Torah submissive life. If one does not accept HaTorah, then one can draw any number of conclusions regarding His life, from egalitarian pacifist to violent bigot. As with all things, context is important.

[Elijah John]

I believe that He was the embodiment of HaTorah. His life unto death is an example of how we can live a Torah submissive life. If one does not accept HaTorah, then one can draw any number of conclusions regarding His life, from egalitarian pacifist to violent bigot. As with all things, context is important.

Do you see Jesus as having done this perfectly? What about when he called the Pharisees disparaging names? (whether or not in human terms, he was "justified")

Or when he suggests to the man who wanted to follow him "let the dead bury their own dead"? Is such neglect honoring one's parents? Is advocating such neglect, being "Torah observant"? Does the Torah teach that one must neglect it's Laws when a charismatic preacher calls upon one to put them aside, even momentarily? Even when that chraismatic preacher identifies himself as the Messiah?

For that matter, would the Messiah have even advocated the neglect of an essential Commandment?

[William]

Jesus - like a good big brother. Some things attributed to him in the book appear to be additions. It all depends upon how one is as to what one is attracted by.

Assuming Jesus existed and is accurately portrayed in the New Testament, what is the character of Jesus?

A relative mystery. A person of interest. The character is complex.

Good?

Bad?

Perfect?

Complex. How do we define good bad and perfect?

On our own individual terms?

Jesus said that we should be perfect as 'The Father in heaven' is perfect. That is mysterious. Some say it means be complete.

Some also say that 'The Father' Jesus was speaking of was the YHVH...just a side of which wasn't presented in a human form before.

Righteous (good) but flawed and imperfect? i.e., human? (even the best of us are not pefect)

A mix?

To answer your question using your own criteria - that Jesus existed and is accurately portrayed in the New Testament - the answer is that Jesus was the son of a GOD called 'The Father' (who might be YHVH of Israel) and was sent by the GOD in order to relay a message which couldn't be relayed through the Israeli authorities and to which the Israeli authorities eventually deemed to be blasphemy.

The story itself shows clearly that Jesus was many things to many people. Nothing has changed in regard to that, but that in itself is nothing mysterious.

It all depends upon how one is as to what one is attracted by.

eta;

I might add that IF we are sticking to the criteria
"assuming Jesus existed and is accurately portrayed in the New Testament,"

THEN;

it should read as

"assuming Jesus exists and is accurately portrayed in the New Testament, what is the character of Jesus? "

[bluethread]

I believe that He was the embodiment of HaTorah. His life unto death is an example of how we can live a Torah submissive life. If one does not accept HaTorah, then one can draw any number of conclusions regarding His life, from egalitarian pacifist to violent bigot. As with all things, context is important.

Do you see Jesus as having done this perfectly? What about when he called the Pharisees disparaging names? (whether or not in human terms, he was "justified")

In Torah law, is in Us secular law, truth is an absolute defence.

Or when he suggests to the man who wanted to follow him "let the dead bury their own dead"? Is such neglect honoring one's parents? Is advocating such neglect, being "Torah observant"? Does the Torah teach that one must neglect it's Laws when a charismatic preacher calls upon one to put them aside, even momentarily? Even when that chraismatic preacher identifies himself as the Messiah?

For that matter, would the Messiah have even advocated the neglect of an essential Commandment?

If this were a matter of simply burying his father, what is he doing there with Yeshua in the first place. The context of the verse is about making excuses. Therefore, this probably refers to sitting sheva, or taking the rabbinic year of morning, which are not commandments. The man was not obligated to follow Yeshua, but was asking for special treatment. If he wasn't ready to make the commitment, he shouldn't have asked.