Can we all just agree, right off the bat, that there is no amount of burden of proof atheism can bare to establish that it is accurate and correct? That atheism has no valid right to claim any truth claims about God, whether He does or does not exist, they simply cant make any determining claims of truth in the regard of Gods existence... And all the truth claims, and positive evidence rest on the side of Christianity (between atheism is Christianity that is)...
Can we just agree, there is no truth claims atheism can make?
Atheism truth, is nonexistent
Moderator: Moderators
Re: Atheism truth, is nonexistent
Post #2I don't know if all of us can agree that atheism makes no truth claims, but I'd say that atheism, as I understand it, does not and can not make any truth claims. Atheism, properly understood, is an absence of belief in any gods. Simply not believing in gods is not a truth claim about gods or anything else.Tart wrote:Can we just agree, there is no truth claims atheism can make?
That said, an atheist can certainly make truth claims about gods. I'm an atheist and I claim all the time that gods are imaginary beings that people create.
-
JoeyKnothead
- Banned
- Posts: 20879
- Joined: Fri Jun 06, 2008 10:59 am
- Location: Here
- Has thanked: 4093 times
- Been thanked: 2573 times
Post #3
From the OP:
This atheist is perfectly willing to hop in the "he's there, I swear it" camp the exact moment either one of them notions comes true.
I dare say, if Christianity had it truth to it, y'all wouldn't hafta fetch about tryin' to tell folks how much it is it does.
When grammaw hops her up out the grave and strolls her down to the flea market, I might set to believe y'all Christians. But 'til that time, I'm set to think y'all's notions are goofier'n my own.
Atheism is a disbelief in theistic claims, not an assertion.Can we all just agree, right off the bat, that there is no amount of burden of proof atheism can bare to establish that it is accurate and correct?
Are you really this ignorant (clinical term) of what it is to be atheist?That atheism has no valid right to claim any truth claims about God,
The atheist is all atheist and all for the simple reason he ain't never seen him no god/s, or him the first god proponent that can show they speak truth.whether He does or does not exist, they simply cant make any determining claims of truth in the regard of Gods existence... And all the truth claims, and positive evidence rest on the side of Christianity (between atheism is Christianity that is)...
This atheist is perfectly willing to hop in the "he's there, I swear it" camp the exact moment either one of them notions comes true.
LolAnd all the truth claims, and positive evidence rest on the side of Christianity (between atheism is Christianity that is)...
I dare say, if Christianity had it truth to it, y'all wouldn't hafta fetch about tryin' to tell folks how much it is it does.
When grammaw hops her up out the grave and strolls her down to the flea market, I might set to believe y'all Christians. But 'til that time, I'm set to think y'all's notions are goofier'n my own.
Yep, I reckon ya are.Can we just agree, there is no truth claims atheism can make?
I might be Teddy Roosevelt, but I ain't.
-Punkinhead Martin
-Punkinhead Martin
-
Divine Insight
- Savant
- Posts: 18070
- Joined: Thu Jun 28, 2012 10:59 pm
- Location: Here & Now
- Been thanked: 19 times
Post #4
Atheism isn't even an institution. It's not a paradigm or even a philosophy.
Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Therefore "Atheism" makes no claims about anything.
Individual atheists may indeed make claims about various Gods as they are described by various religions. After all, if you read a book about Zeus, you can certainly comment on what you thought of that book. Same thing goes if the God's name happens to be Allah, Yahweh, or Jesus.
I personally don't even consider myself to be an "atheist', based on the above definition which I got from an online search. I don't necessarily lack a believe in the existence of a "God" or "gods". I'm certainly open to the possibility of such entities potentially existing. In some sense I kind of do think that there may be something mystical and magical going on. However, according to some religions this could mean that I myself am this thing we call "God". Although not in the sense of Solipsism. I tend to believe that, if this is the case, it's far more likely to be like Pantheism.
I am, however, thoroughly convinced that Gods like Zeus, Allah, Yahweh, Apollo, or Jesus do not exist. At least not as described in the religious texts that these Gods are founded upon. Those cultural tales are clearly not describing any actual Gods.
Am I permitted to make statement about the possible existence of any Gods?
Absolutely. I'm a human, living on planet earth. I have just as much right to voice my views on the concept of Gods as anyone else. The fact that someone actually believes in a particular cultural God does not elevate them to any special status when it comes to having an opinion about Gods.
Any theist who thinks that because they are a theist this somehow elevates their opinions and views over those of a non-theist is fooling themselves in grand style.
I've read the Bible and I've read all the insane accusations it has made against all of humanity (including myself) and I reject those accusations as being utterly ignorant and absurd. We even have scientific natural evidence that the Bible if false. The Bible claims that humans are to be blamed for bringing sin and evil into the world. But we know that this is false. So the Bible begin with a demonstrably false charge.
There really isn't even any point in pretending that the God it goes on to describe could be real when it begins with provably false charges.
The the Biblical God is already disproved by reality. No need for me to even bother with that one.
None the less, I'm still agnostic with respect to the question of the true nature of reality in general. Something like Buddhism could still be true. There are many other religions that could be true was well, such as Taoism, and others.
As long as a religion is compatible with known reality and doesn't describe an insane self-contradictory jealous God who has all the same character flaws of a mortal human (as the Biblical God does), then it might retain the potential of being true.
Buddhism still has a possibility of being true. The Abrahamic religions do not. That's just a fact of life. There's really no room left for opinion. Just like there's no room left for opinion that the Earth is a sphere and orbits the Sun. Sure, there are people who will refuse to believe these things, but let's face it, they aren't being realistic.
Atheism - disbelief or lack of belief in the existence of God or gods.
Therefore "Atheism" makes no claims about anything.
Individual atheists may indeed make claims about various Gods as they are described by various religions. After all, if you read a book about Zeus, you can certainly comment on what you thought of that book. Same thing goes if the God's name happens to be Allah, Yahweh, or Jesus.
I personally don't even consider myself to be an "atheist', based on the above definition which I got from an online search. I don't necessarily lack a believe in the existence of a "God" or "gods". I'm certainly open to the possibility of such entities potentially existing. In some sense I kind of do think that there may be something mystical and magical going on. However, according to some religions this could mean that I myself am this thing we call "God". Although not in the sense of Solipsism. I tend to believe that, if this is the case, it's far more likely to be like Pantheism.
I am, however, thoroughly convinced that Gods like Zeus, Allah, Yahweh, Apollo, or Jesus do not exist. At least not as described in the religious texts that these Gods are founded upon. Those cultural tales are clearly not describing any actual Gods.
Am I permitted to make statement about the possible existence of any Gods?
Absolutely. I'm a human, living on planet earth. I have just as much right to voice my views on the concept of Gods as anyone else. The fact that someone actually believes in a particular cultural God does not elevate them to any special status when it comes to having an opinion about Gods.
Any theist who thinks that because they are a theist this somehow elevates their opinions and views over those of a non-theist is fooling themselves in grand style.
I've read the Bible and I've read all the insane accusations it has made against all of humanity (including myself) and I reject those accusations as being utterly ignorant and absurd. We even have scientific natural evidence that the Bible if false. The Bible claims that humans are to be blamed for bringing sin and evil into the world. But we know that this is false. So the Bible begin with a demonstrably false charge.
There really isn't even any point in pretending that the God it goes on to describe could be real when it begins with provably false charges.
The the Biblical God is already disproved by reality. No need for me to even bother with that one.
None the less, I'm still agnostic with respect to the question of the true nature of reality in general. Something like Buddhism could still be true. There are many other religions that could be true was well, such as Taoism, and others.
As long as a religion is compatible with known reality and doesn't describe an insane self-contradictory jealous God who has all the same character flaws of a mortal human (as the Biblical God does), then it might retain the potential of being true.
Buddhism still has a possibility of being true. The Abrahamic religions do not. That's just a fact of life. There's really no room left for opinion. Just like there's no room left for opinion that the Earth is a sphere and orbits the Sun. Sure, there are people who will refuse to believe these things, but let's face it, they aren't being realistic.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
[/center]
Re: Atheism truth, is nonexistent
Post #5I've read that several times. I can't make sense of it. So, no, I don't see how anybody can agree to that.Tart wrote: Can we all just agree, right off the bat, that there is no amount of burden of proof atheism can bare to establish that it is accurate and correct?
Other people are rightly pointing out that atheism isn't a person.That atheism has no valid right to claim any truth claims about God,
How does a valid right differ from a regular right?
What does claiming a truth claim look like?
Are you trying to say that atheists can't make claims about gods? That's nonsense. Nobody should agree with that.
I've no idea what a determining claim of truth is. I don't think it means anything. So, once again, I don't see how anybody could agree with that.whether He does or does not exist, they simply cant make any determining claims of truth in the regard of Gods existence...
If you're claiming that atheists can't make claims about the existence of gods, that's absurd.
That's absurd.And all the truth claims, and positive evidence rest on the side of Christianity (between atheism is Christianity that is)...
No. You can't back up that claim. You've got nothing.
Can we just agree, there is no truth claims atheism can make?
-
FarWanderer
- Guru
- Posts: 1617
- Joined: Thu Jul 25, 2013 2:47 am
- Location: California
Post #6
Atheism makes the implied claim that the evidence/justification for belief in a deity is insufficient.
Additionally, it often also makes the implied claim that anyone who does believe also lacks sufficient evidence/justification themselves and therefore believes in error.
Not being able prove that there is no God doesn’t contradict these claims, so yes, atheists have a “right� to make them.
Additionally, it often also makes the implied claim that anyone who does believe also lacks sufficient evidence/justification themselves and therefore believes in error.
Not being able prove that there is no God doesn’t contradict these claims, so yes, atheists have a “right� to make them.
-
Willum
- Savant
- Posts: 9017
- Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:14 pm
- Location: Yahweh's Burial Place
- Has thanked: 35 times
- Been thanked: 82 times
Post #7
Well, that's not the way is works.
What a theist would do is make some assertion about God, and an atheist would point out the falseness of the claim.
It is very easy.
What a theist would do is make some assertion about God, and an atheist would point out the falseness of the claim.
It is very easy.
-
rikuoamero
- Under Probation
- Posts: 6707
- Joined: Tue Jul 28, 2015 2:06 pm
- Been thanked: 4 times
Re: Atheism truth, is nonexistent
Post #8[Replying to post 1 by Tart]
"I am an atheist. I don't believe in gods". I look at those two sentences and I don't see anything that strictly speaking requires a burden of proof.
Please tell me, the atheist, what positive claim atheism makes? I thought my position being an atheist was thisCan we all just agree, right off the bat, that there is no amount of burden of proof atheism can bare to establish that it is accurate and correct?
"I am an atheist. I don't believe in gods". I look at those two sentences and I don't see anything that strictly speaking requires a burden of proof.
Atheism is a determination of what one believes or does not believe, is it not?That atheism has no valid right to claim any truth claims about God, whether He does or does not exist,
Ah, so since you have discovered that atheism cannot and does not have truth claims, therefore Christianity automagically wins.And all the truth claims, and positive evidence rest on the side of Christianity (between atheism is Christianity that is)...
Can we just agree, there is no truth claims atheism can make?
Your life is your own. Rise up and live it - Richard Rahl, Sword of Truth Book 6 "Faith of the Fallen"
I condemn all gods who dare demand my fealty, who won't look me in the face so's I know who it is I gotta fealty to. -- JoeyKnotHead
Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense
-
Goat
- Site Supporter
- Posts: 24999
- Joined: Fri Jul 21, 2006 6:09 pm
- Has thanked: 25 times
- Been thanked: 207 times
Re: Atheism truth, is nonexistent
Post #9That truth claim is that?? The only truth claim is 'there is no objective and tangible evidence to conclude that any deity exists'. There is no model about what God is, aside from actions that are attributed to god, or metaphysical concepts for which there are no physical counterparts... so 'what is god' is insufficiently defined. There is no model that all that woudl explain how such a entity could accomplish the claimed actions. There is no way to falsify the thesis that the God concept is merely conceptual in nature.Tart wrote: Can we all just agree, right off the bat, that there is no amount of burden of proof atheism can bare to establish that it is accurate and correct? That atheism has no valid right to claim any truth claims about God, whether He does or does not exist, they simply cant make any determining claims of truth in the regard of Gods existence... And all the truth claims, and positive evidence rest on the side of Christianity (between atheism is Christianity that is)...
Can we just agree, there is no truth claims atheism can make?
Atheism is merely not accepting the claim that God(s) exist, due to both the lack of definition and the lack of evidence for that claim.
“What do you think science is? There is nothing magical about science. It is simply a systematic way for carefully and thoroughly observing nature and using consistent logic to evaluate results. So which part of that exactly do you disagree with? Do you disagree with being thorough? Using careful observation? Being systematic? Or using consistent logic?�
Steven Novella
Steven Novella
Post #10
We're arguing semantics here, but I think a better term for what you're arguing would be "antitheism" rather than atheism. Antitheism is an active philosophical opposition to theism. So antitheists might imply or state explicitly that there is no sufficient reason or evidence for gods.FarWanderer wrote: Atheism makes the implied claim that the evidence/justification for belief in a deity is insufficient.
I do know some people who have no belief in any gods. But they have nothing to say about the evidence for or against any gods. They just don't care about theological issues. Such people obviously are not theists. So what are they? The only sensible answer I can think of is that they are atheists. Their atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods.
As I see it, those who believe in gods as having existence independent of the human imagination are mistaken. There are no such gods, and people err when they think any of the gods exist. But my recognizing this error doesn't form the basis for my atheism. It's possible that I might not even know people are making this mistake, but I might still lack belief in gods and be an atheist.Additionally, it often also makes the implied claim that anyone who does believe also lacks sufficient evidence/justification themselves and therefore believes in error.
Actually, virtual disproof of the existence of the gods is not hard to come by, but that's another issue.Not being able prove that there is no God doesn’t contradict these claims, so yes, atheists have a “right� to make them.
