Is The Author God or Is It Humans?

[RedEye]

Christians often tell us that their holy book is the true and unadulterated word of their god (the one true god). Here is an opportunity for you to give your reasons as to why you believe this.

So, Christians how exactly do you know that the Bible is the word of God and not simply an invention of human minds?

Bear in mind that Muslims believe that the Qur'an is the word of Allah, the Jews believe the Tanakh is the word of Yahweh and so on. At least one of you must be wrong since all of these books cannot be the work of the one true god. (Why would he need two or more wildly different books?).

Would it be a reasonable expectation that if a holy book was dictated by God then it would reveal some knowledge of the world which was beyond the humans of the time? We see no evidence of this. In fact, we see the reverse. Holy books contain information which has been demonstrated to be wrong by science.

Therefore, what is the key piece of evidence which convinces you that God authored a holy book and it could not possibly be an entirely human construct?

[StuartJ]

The very best of luck getting a straight answer to this.

I can feel the "what do you mean by ..." and the "Stalin was worse" diversions coming already.

Personally, I only EVER see the hand of politically motivated humans in both the old and the new propaganda.

Oooh, I may have just opened up up an opportunity for a diversion away from your very clear and unambiguous topic ....

Apologies.

[RedEye]

Oooh, I may have just opened up up an opportunity for a diversion away from your very clear and unambiguous topic ....

Apologies.

My apologies for what happened in the other thread. My first post there was just meant as a somewhat flippant and amusing aside. Some chose to use it to try and corner me into a contradiction by playing mischievous word games. And on and on it went ...

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 3 by RedEye]

Some of us recognise flippancy.

Some of us don't.

May blessings of goodness grace this topic ....

[Aetixintro]

[Replying to post 1 by RedEye]

Clearly the author is humans! Why is it so wrong to say Word of the Deity? Who can say that religion is not also a product of culture?

And so on, that religious Jews have their Torah, but that Christians wanted to add something more so they have the Bible (with the Torah, guess) and, even more, that Muslims wanted something more as well so they have the Quran (with the Bible and the Torah).

See? It's all more beautiful than one might think.

[RedEye]

The very best of luck getting a straight answer to this.

I can feel the "what do you mean by ..." and the "Stalin was worse" diversions coming already.

I guess you were right. There does not appear to be any good reason that Christians have for believing that the Bible is the word of God. I expected someone to give it a try though.

[Jagella]

So, Christians how exactly do you know that the Bible is the word of God and not simply an invention of human minds?

Christian apologists often argue that Bible prophecy demonstrates that the Bible needed to be authored by a super-human agent. No human could presumably predict events centuries or even millenia ahead of time. So for them God is the great crystal-ball gazer in the sky.

Other apologists like Hugh Ross interpret the Bible as supporting important scientific theories long before scientists came up with those theories.

At least one of you must be wrong since all of these books cannot be the work of the one true god.

Yes. All the other religious books must be wrong.

(Why would he need two or more wildly different books?).

Actually, a god would not need any books at all. Only people need books to preserve and spread their religious doctrines.

Would it be a reasonable expectation that if a holy book was dictated by God then it would reveal some knowledge of the world which was beyond the humans of the time?

I'd say that it is reasonable for any god to know what humans do not yet know. The aforementioned Hugh, Ross, for example, interprets Psalm 104:2 as telling us that the universe is expanding. It says in part: "You stretch out the heavens like a tent..." I must wonder why Psalm 104:2 was only ever interpreted that way until after Hubble discovered that the universe is expanding.

We see no evidence of this. In fact, we see the reverse. Holy books contain information which has been demonstrated to be wrong by science.

Yes. The Bible's cosmology is that of a flat earth.

Therefore, what is the key piece of evidence which convinces you that God authored a holy book and it could not possibly be an entirely human construct?

If people wish to believe something badly enough, then they can come up with reasons to believe it.

[1213]

...So, Christians how exactly do you know that the Bible is the word of God and not simply an invention of human minds?...

For me the reason is that the Bible has knowledge, wisdom and love that I don’t think humans would have without God. Like for example knowledge of what happens to Jews:

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

[RedEye]

...So, Christians how exactly do you know that the Bible is the word of God and not simply an invention of human minds?...

For me the reason is that the Bible has knowledge, wisdom and love that I don’t think humans would have without God.

I could probably list a dozen books that have knowledge, wisdom and love. (The Bible also contains much false information, foolishness and hate). Humans are capable of amazing creative acts. (And remember that the Bible has dozens and dozens of authors so it is an accumulated work). Is this an argument from personal incredulity?

Like for example knowledge of what happens to Jews:

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

False prophecy plus cherry-picking. Firstly, this is a threat made if the Jews did not listen to Yahweh and were hostile to him. That never happened so there was no reason for the threat to be carried out. Secondly, the text states that Yahweh would do this scattering (with sword in hand). There is no record of this so the "prophecy" is false. Lastly, there are a whole series of threats made (by a loving God!) in Leviticus 26:14-39. You cherry-pick one of them and ignore the others. Did Jews resort to cannibalism as in Leviticus 26:29? Did God make a bunch of false prophecies and then suddenly produce a good one?

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Another false prophecy. The Jews were resettled in Israel by Great Britain after WWII. God had nothing to do with either scattering them or bringing them back. It all happened entirely through human activity. Also, the passage talks about restoring Jews who have died and gone to heaven. Never happened. The millions of victims of the Holocaust for example have stayed dead. It's a complete failure as "prophecy" in every respect.

[1213]

… (The Bible also contains much false information, foolishness and hate).

Foolishness and hate seems to be a matter of opinion. I think Bible is in no way foolish. And if God hates evil, I think it is ok. But I am certain that it has no false information.

Humans are capable of amazing creative acts.

I don’t think so. Mostly humans seem to only mimic what they see in nature or elsewhere.

(And remember that the Bible has dozens and dozens of authors so it is an accumulated work). Is this an argument from personal incredulity?

To me, that Bible has many authors, confirms the message. It has many witnesses and they all have the same basic ideas and for me, it confirms the message. If it would be only from one person at one point of time, it would not be as credible, it would also be totally different book.

I will scatter you among the nations, and I will draw out the sword after you: and your land will be a desolation, and your cities shall be a waste.
Leviticus 26:33

False prophecy plus cherry-picking. Firstly, this is a threat made if the Jews did not listen to Yahweh and were hostile to him. That never happened so there was no reason for the threat to be carried out.

Sorry, I think it really happened when they rejected the message Jesus forwarded from God.

Secondly, the text states that Yahweh would do this scattering (with sword in hand).

It says “I will draw out the sword after you� and Romans could be seen as that sword.

Did God make a bunch of false prophecies and then suddenly produce a good one?

I think God has not produced any false prophesy. And I am certain that you can’t prove your claim correct.

It shall happen, when all these things are come on you, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before you, and you shall call them to mind among all the nations, where Yahweh your God has driven you, and shall return to Yahweh your God, and shall obey his voice according to all that I command you this day, you and your children, with all your heart, and with all your soul; that then Yahweh your God will turn your captivity, and have compassion on you, and will return and gather you from all the peoples, where Yahweh your God has scattered you. If any of your outcasts are in the uttermost parts of the heavens, from there will Yahweh your God gather you, and from there will he bring you back:
Deuteronomy 30:1-4

Another false prophecy. The Jews were resettled in Israel by Great Britain after WWII. God had nothing to do with either scattering them or bringing them back. It all happened entirely through human activity. Also, the passage talks about restoring Jews who have died and gone to heaven. Never happened. The millions of victims of the Holocaust for example have stayed dead. It's a complete failure as "prophecy" in every respect.

How do you know God did not influence people so that they carried out the correct moves?

How do you know who got or did not get eternal life with God?