God designed cancer and birth defects.

[Jagella]

Apologists and creationists in particular love to wow us with the amazing design of the world. We have many beautiful animals and plants to ogle. And if that isn't amazing enough, we have discovered a genetic code we call "DNA" that exists in each of the trillions of our cells. This code lays out a blueprint for what we all are--amazing, functional, and beautiful beings! Surely a god must be responsible for all this wonder because we need a designer to explain DNA.

But wait. It doesn't always work out in a good way. DNA often "malfunctions" resulting in cancer and birth defects. What kind of design is that? What monster-god would plan that babies are born without eyes and that people would suffer and die as cancer cells multiply wildly and destroy their bodies?

Question for Debate: Did the Bible god design cancer and birth defects?

[amortalman]

Apologists and creationists in particular love to wow us with the amazing design of the world. We have many beautiful animals and plants to ogle. And if that isn't amazing enough, we have discovered a genetic code we call "DNA" that exists in each of the trillions of our cells. This code lays out a blueprint for what we all are--amazing, functional, and beautiful beings! Surely a god must be responsible for all this wonder because we need a designer to explain DNA.

But wait. It doesn't always work out in a good way. DNA often "malfunctions" resulting in cancer and birth defects. What kind of design is that? What monster-god would plan that babies are born without eyes and that people would suffer and die as cancer cells multiply wildly and destroy their bodies?

Question for Debate: Did the Bible god design cancer and birth defects?

Certainly a debatable question, Jagella. Goes along with the question of why does God allow such horrendous suffering in the world. The trouble with Christianity as I see it is that no matter how horrible and senseless the sufferings of mankind are, believers excuse their God because it is a sin, in their warped view, to question God. He must have a valid reason for a two-year-old toddler to be raped and strangled.

If the God of Christianity is real then believers and unbelievers alike are living in a real nightmare. Unbelievers are doomed to hell, whatever measure of torture that may be. And how do Christians know they are safe forever with such a God?

My answer to your question is this: If the God of the Bible exists he designed everything including pathogens, birth defects, mental diseases including psychopathic illness, destructive storms, earthquakes, tsunamis, hell, and everything blamed on Satan which he also created. It is far more reasonable and comforting to believe that the Biblical God is a terrible fictional character.

[ytrewq]

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

The more general question is why a nice, loving god would create or cause to happen any of the truly awful things on Earth. Sir David Attenborough agrees with you.

When creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] thats going to make him blind.

And , Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent childs eyeball? Because that doesnt seem to me to coincide with a God whos full of mercy.

Christians and theists will tie themselves in knots trying to find excuses and justifications. Personally I agree with David Attenborough. If that's the god you believe in, you can have him to yourself. But on a more serious note, this is just another example of where science clearly provides a simpler, more believable explanation for the world we see around us, both the good and the bad.

[Jagella]

Certainly a debatable question, Jagella. Goes along with the question of why does God allow such horrendous suffering in the world.

But if we consider DNA, then it is the deliberate design of Yahweh/Jesus rather than just something that Yahweh/Jesus allows to happen. Apologists like to cite DNA as the "language of design" not pointing out that that language spells out cancer and birth defects.

...how do Christians know they are safe forever with such a God?

Such a question deserves a thread dedicated to it, but I haven't failed to think that any being who designs suffering cannot be trusted. If he's so terrible as to create disease and deformity, then what's to keep him from lying to his followers as he lays a trap for them condemning them to hell?

It is far more reasonable and comforting to believe that the Biblical God is a terrible fictional character.

In a strange sort of way the nonexistence of gods is the atheist heaven. Hell is to discover that gods and all their evils exist. Maybe that's why Christian apologists taunt atheists with the existence of God; they realize that we fear their monster exists.

[Jagella]

...this is just another example of where science clearly provides a simpler, more believable explanation for the world we see around us, both the good and the bad.

Yes, an atheistic view of the world is so much simpler and easier to understand than any theistic view. Christian apologists and theologians have written many tomes wrestling with all the vexing issues belief in their god raises. For atheists, we just see that their are no gods and go on with the business of the real world knowing that there are no gods to stop evil. We must stop evil.

[marco]

Certainly a debatable question, Jagella. Goes along with the question of why does God allow such horrendous suffering in the world.

Believers can get round the problem of God allowing bad things to happen under the title of non-interference. Let man eat the forbidden fruit and then suffer later. Why take away the gift of free will? There are objections to this but at least an argument can be made. However, in the case of God actually DESIGNING cancerous growths, or fashioning a shark's teeth or a tiger's jaws to accommodate what they kill or inserting disease into an insect's sting that's another matter. He is an evil designer, not a free-will benefactor. That's harder to explain.

There are those who would ask us to define evil, and invite us to view the horrendous as another facet of good. Belief like love conquers all.

[ttruscott]

I posit that this world was NOT made in the image of GOD's goodness and kindness but in the image of mankind's evil, ie, the broken image of GOD. Just like a prison doesn't reflect the home life and social rules of the Judge sending people there but the evil of the prisoners, this prison for evil people does NOT reflect HIS perfect society which will be inaugurated the moment the last evil is banished to the outer darkness.

If all HIS creation had chosen to accept the heavenly marriage as presented in the gospel when given the chance, then nothing like this world would ever have existed in all of this reality.

imhCo

[marco]

I posit that this world was NOT made in the image of GOD's goodness and kindness but in the image of mankind's evil, ie, the broken image of GOD.

There is no way of verifying what you "posit". It is like placing a bet on a horse and opining the horse will win, but in the horse case we'll find an answer when the race is over. And we know there's a race with named horses in it.

I observe good people. If my apparatus for making such a judgment is flawed, then we might as well be lunatics in a madhouse. When kids were trapped in a cave good people from across the globe raced to rescue them. By anyone's standards this is good. If God employs other criteria, then we must accept God isn't particularly nice.
Any theology that takes no account of the universal goodness in our world is a flawed theology. We have bad people of course, and we have natural disasters. They don't obliterate the magnanimity, philanthropy, charity and general goodness.

[Jagella]

I posit that this world was NOT made in the image of GOD's goodness and kindness but in the image of mankind's evil, ie, the broken image of GOD. Just like a prison doesn't reflect the home life and social rules of the Judge sending people there but the evil of the prisoners, this prison for evil people does NOT reflect HIS perfect society which will be inaugurated the moment the last evil is banished to the outer darkness.

But unlike a human judge who is very imperfect, weak, and limited, a perfect and all-powerful god would never need to send any evil people to prison. He would know better than to create evil people to begin with!

And what is so evil about people? Yes, some people do evil, but generally people are good. It's illogical and unjust to punish good people along with the bad. Even very imperfect human judges can understand such justice, so why can't the Bible god understand he should be just as well?

If all HIS creation had chosen to accept the heavenly marriage as presented in the gospel when given the chance, then nothing like this world would ever have existed in all of this reality.

You honestly think it's moral to plague people with birth defects and cancer because they don't accept a marriage?

What kind of a god do you worship?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 6 by marco]

Believers can get round the problem of God allowing bad things to happen under the title of non-interference. Let man eat the forbidden fruit and then suffer later. Why take away the gift of free will? There are objections to this but at least an argument can be made. However, in the case of God actually DESIGNING cancerous growths, or fashioning a shark's teeth or a tiger's jaws to accommodate what they kill or inserting disease into an insect's sting that's another matter. He is an evil designer, not a free-will benefactor. That's harder to explain.

Star Trek is a TV series that talks about a Prime Directive of non-interference...but I'd like to ask you and others what would you think of a (hypothetical) episode where a group of scientists (not necessarily Federation aligned) created a settlement on a planet full of people born from test tubes and also created a virus in that settlement that has say...a 1 in 20 chance of infecting you and killing you in horrible agony.
The scientists then leave and watch from orbit. They don't interfere.
Are the scientists gods? Should they be thought of as gods by the test tube people? Should they be worshipped, obeyed (if they happen to give commands)? Should their creation of the virus be excused or even praised?