Christ's Crucifixion and Death

[rikuoamero]

According to Christianity, the man named Jesus Christ (believed by some Christians to be God incarnate) paid the ransom price for the rebellious sin of Adam and Eve. That with Christ's death, God is now able to forgive humanity.

I'd like to explore this. So let's picture the scene. Humanity exists in large numbers on a planet called Earth. God sends his son (or himself) in the personage of Jesus Christ, to walk and talk among crowds of Jews and Gentiles for a handful of years. Eventually, what he does annoys the orthodox Jewish priests, who arrest him, bring him before Pilate who says the priests can execute him if they want. Jesus is then taken to a hill where he is nailed to a piece of wood.

I'd like to ask Christians what exactly changes regarding God and humanity in the minute before Jesus is nailed to the cross, versus the minute after he is nailed. What changes before he takes his last breath, and after. What exactly has been done? All I can see is a man, innocent according to his supporters, being unjustly executed. In previous threads, I excoriated Christians who said they would not prevent the crucifixion and execution, who said they would be willing to benefit from it. So I'd like to ask - what exactly is happening here, in these key moments, these key seconds of time?
Did humanity change? Learn, grow? Did God?

EDIT: Please answer as though you and I are standing there in the crowd on that hill.

[Goose]

All I can see is a man, innocent according to his supporters, being unjustly executed.

If your view is that Jesus was merely a man who was unjustly put to death then it follows you would not see the theological significance of his death on the cross.

Did humanity change? Learn, grow? Did God?

If Jesus was merely a man, then nothing on a cosmic level changed. There was nothing significant about his death in that case. If, on the other hand, Jesus was in fact the Son of God then that would be a game changer.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by Goose]

If your view is that Jesus was merely a man who was unjustly put to death then it follows you would not see the theological significance of his death on the cross.

This sounds to me like you're telling me that in order to see this theological significance, I have to already be invested in it.
Anyway, I do understand it, or at least I heard it all before, was previously invested in it. However, I will be consistent, I did say to pretend as though I were a newcomer standing on that hill. So explain to me what's going on.
What's happening in terms of your theology between one moment and the next? Between the moment before he gets nailed, and the moment after? The moment before he exhales his last breath and the moment after?
What has happened other than a man whom Christians say is innocent dying? Can you actually say anything (else) has happened at all, things that don't require one to already be invested in your theology?

If Jesus was merely a man, then nothing on a cosmic level changed.

Is this to say nothing can change, if Jesus was merely a man?

There was nothing significant about his death in that case.

So for a man's death to be significant, he has to be divine?

If, on the other hand, Jesus was in fact the Son of God then that would be a game changer.

Even if he in fact was the Son of God (capital letters), this still does not answer my OP. What has changed in those moments, what has happened?

[John Human]

Please answer as though you and I are standing there in the crowd on that hill.

Here is an "eye-witness" account of what happened as Jesus was crucified, given by "Ancient Demon," one of the demons responsible for protecting the Hebrew royal family through the generations:

http://earthwarning.org/index.php/here-be-demons/

Ancient Demon now considers it appropriate for Ancient Demon to share its understanding of how Christianity evolved. Ancient Demon was present at the crucifixion of Jesus, because there was no way for a demon who was charged with protection of the royal family to not be present. Ancient Demon knew that it risked being discovered, but at the time there was no reason for Ancient Demon to fear being attacked, because there was still a functioning Hebrew hierarchy in Jerusalem. Ancient Demon was not in the energy field of the prince. It was outside all energy fields during the crucifixion. Ancient Demon was able to witness by fixing itself to the cross where Jesus died. Ancient Demon heard exactly what Jesus said as Jesus was on the cross. Ancient Demon will now describe what happened.

Jesus was forced to drag the cross to the place of crucifixion. Jesus was then nailed to the cross, with nails going through his wrists and ankles, as many have supposed. This had the effect of making Jesus cry out in pain three times. The fourth time Jesus was silent. Jesus had acclimatized himself to the experience of being pierced and was able to steel himself against the piercing. After this, Jesus was unable to continue talking. He thought of saying something to his followers who were gathered around him, together with a group of soldiers. He was thinking of mustering the strength to say a final word, when a soldier came up to him and mocked him, saying, “King of the Jews!� Jesus replied indistinctly, “I am not the king anymore. James is king.� Jesus knew that, if the soldier had heard, this would have resulted in James being scrutinized and probably eliminated. So Jesus was careful not to allow the soldier (or anyone else) to hear what Jesus said.

After this, Jesus thought of saying something that was understandable to the people near him. He turned to the freedom fighter on his left and said, “You will be in the Kingdom of Heaven very shortly.� He then turned to the freedom fighter on his right and said, “You will not be in the Kingdom of Heaven until there is a King of Israel on the throne.� Jesus meant by this that both freedom fighters would be in the Kingdom of Heaven shortly, and that there would be a King on the Hebrew throne shortly. Jesus was convinced that the Hebrews would be able to throw the Romans out of Jerusalem and withstand a siege for many years, longer than the Roman army could maintain itself. This was because the Hebrews had stored wheat for many years in a location that was unknown to the Romans and was being prepared for such a siege. However, Jesus also knew that, if the Romans conquered a rebellious Jerusalem, they would level the temple so that no stone was left standing. Jesus made a comment to that effect, which was misheard and written into the Bible in a garbled way. Ancient Demon knew of this because it was told by Peter, who criticized a manuscript that later became one of the gospels. Ancient Demon knew that this manuscript was written with the help of eyewitness testimony, and Ancient Demon also know that eyewitnesses could make mistakes, as it experienced during the crucifixion of Jesus.

After Jesus talked to the freedom fighters on either side, Jesus was silent, thinking of what else he might say to his followers below. Jesus knew that, if he succumbed quickly and was taken down without having his legs broken, there was a chance that he might actually survive, because he had the ability to feign death. However, he suspected that, if he tried to do this, his body would be mutilated. Jesus knew that, because he was unable to make proper plans with someone who might bury him, he had to simply take his chances and let God make that decision, as Jesus thought to himself. Ancient Demon was able to follow the thoughts of Jesus Christ, and Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus Christ was thinking of the possibility of survival, there was indeed a chance that this might happen. Ancient Demon thought of possibly being able to help someone who would be in charge of burying Jesus, altering him to the possibility that Jesus had entered a deep trance and wasn’t actually dead. However, Ancient Demon had no idea who would be responsible for burying Jesus, and Ancient Demon knew that, if it tried to intervene too quickly, it would have to explain why it was present and who it was, which would possibly alert the Romans to the fact that there was another living Hebrew prince in Jerusalem. Ancient Demon then observed that Jesus was thinking of speaking. Ancient Demon saw Jesus consider saying that the crucifixion was not in accord with the will of God, but then Jesus thought that maybe it actually was. So Jesus didn’t say anything, and continued thinking, through the ongoing pain.

Jesus then thought of saying that there was a new dispensation, that there would be a new kingdom of heaven for gentiles as well as Jews, as Jesus had hinted earlier. However, Jesus knew that this was not the proper place for such a message. Jesus continued thinking, deciding finally to say, “It is finished.� This was last thing that Jesus said. In the Bible, there are words about Jesus asking God why God forsook Jesus. Jesus thought of this, but then decided that God might not have forsaken Jesus. Ancient Demon assumes that one or more of Jesus’s followers had heard Jesus’s thoughts and perhaps misheard them or didn’t hear them completely. This is a possibility, but Ancient Demon cannot be sure. Ancient Demon wants to be as precise as possible, because of the nature of what happened is a subject that many people have strong feelings about.

Ancient Demon will now describe what happened after Jesus put himself into a deep trance, as if he were dead. The Roman soldiers talked about piercing Jesus in the side, as is described in the Bible. However, the Romans decided not to do that, because it would have made a mess and they were charged with disposing of the body. The Romans then decided to make a bet about how quickly the other two freedom fighters would last. If they lasted longer than five hours, the man who bet that they would last shorter would have to break their legs, so they would suffocate. However, if they lasted shorter than five hours, the man would get their belongings, which were in a small pile to the side of the crucifixion. The man who bet that they would last less than five hours lost his bet, and he broke their legs, and they suffocated. Jesus had been on the cross, apparently dead, all this time.

After this, the three crosses were taken down and the three bodies were removed by pulling the spikes out roughly. One of the freedom fighters’ hands was almost torn off, and Ancient Demon was afraid that something similar would happen to Jesus. However, Ancient Demon decided to affect the soldier who was responsible for taking the spikes out of Jesus’s body. This soldier therefore decided to make a gesture of being respectful in order to appease the crowd of followers. The soldier took the spikes out of Jesus carefully and therefore there was little or no further damage to Jesus. However, there was continued bleeding, and Ancient Demon knew that Jesus could potentially lose too much blood. So Ancient Demon entered the body of Jesus and made a point of affecting the blood vessels to make them constrict. This had the result of ensuring that Jesus didn’t bleed to death.

After this, Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was going to be given a proper burial, there was hope that Jesus would be able to revive himself. Ancient Demon knew that it would be able to assist Jesus, but Ancient Demon was concerned about not having enough energy. For this reason, Ancient Demon, after discovering who was in charge of taking care of the burial, left and returned to the prince. Ancient Demon explained to the prince that Jesus was not dead. The prince wanted to make an effort to help Jesus, but the prince realized that this would be probably suicidal. The prince therefore was able to give energy to Ancient Demon by focusing, much as John does, and giving Ancient Demon a full supply of energy so that Ancient Demon could go to the grave and help revive Jesus. When Ancient Demon returned to the grave, Ancient Demon discovered that Jesus had not been buried but rather transferred to a tomb that was empty. Ancient Demon thus had a much easier time taking care of Jesus. Ancient Demon entered Jesus’s body and helped heal Jesus’s wounds, by affecting the energy field around the lacerations. This had the effect of making sure that Jesus wouldn’t start bleeding when he started moving.

Ancient Demon then began to try to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that it had limited time and energy, and it knew that there was little time for Jesus before he died, so Ancient Demon decided to make a gamble that one surge of energy would be sufficient to revive Jesus. Ancient Demon knew that, because Jesus was unable to revive himself, he would simply die without anyone knowing that he was still alive. So Ancient Demon did what it had to do, risking running out of energy, because Ancient Demon knew that Jesus’s survival was important to the future of the Hebrews. Ancient Demon knew that, if Jesus survived but was hidden, there would be considerable support for his brother James, and this would preserve the royal family. However, if Jesus simply died, the other members of the royal family would be exterminated eventually, as happened with the family of Jude.

Because there was hidden knowledge of Jesus’s survival, there was a great outcry when Jude’s family was murdered, and this served to protect the other member of the royal family. Jude was devastated by what happened, and did not ever think of remarrying. James knew that he was a candidate for High Priest, and for this reason chose not to marry. Jerushae had his grandson, and it was Ancient Demon’s responsibility to preserve the life of Jerushae’s grandson. However, there was another brother, Thomas, who had not married and who had been thinking of having a family. Within the royal family, there were strict rules about marriage, and Thomas had a limited number of families from which he could choose a potential wife. Thomas eventually made a marriage alliance and had a son, who was unable to find a woman from any of these families who was willing to marry him as Jerusalem moved toward open rebellion, and for that reason this son never married. However, Thomas had a daughter with a woman in Egypt, thinking that he should make an effort to preserve the lineage. This resulted in a family in Egypt with royal Hebrew blood, that became part of the Christian movement in Egypt. However, Ancient Demon does not know if descendants of this family survived. This is all that Ancient Demon will say.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 4 by John Human]

Here is an "eye-witness" account of what happened as Jesus was crucified, given by "Ancient Demon," one of the demons responsible for protecting the Hebrew royal family through the generations:

You did not state in this reply that the website you link to...is your own. You also, in the link your quotation is from but have omitted here, have this line
"NOTE Feb. 5, 2018: Two days ago I [John – the recorder of Ancient Demon’s stories] went to a Catholic mass, where someone reached into my mind and came across my memory of Ancient Demon’s sharing the story of witnessing the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. "
Thus the charge can be laid at you that you sought to mislead readers of your comments on this site into thinking that the user John Human is quoting someone else, when in fact he is quoting himself, and is not making it clear.

I am not asking responders to me, to give me what they consider factual blow by blow accounts of what happened as though they were there. You clearly weren't, and you don't have any evidence that this "Ancient Demon" you mention is anything more than your own imagination.
I am asking responders to tell me what happened, according to their beliefs and theology. Not as though they have actual memories which they cannot substantiate.

[John Human]

[Replying to post 4 by John Human]

Here is an "eye-witness" account of what happened as Jesus was crucified, given by "Ancient Demon," one of the demons responsible for protecting the Hebrew royal family through the generations:

You did not state in this reply that the website you link to...is your own. You also, in the link your quotation is from but have omitted here, have this line
"NOTE Feb. 5, 2018: Two days ago I [John – the recorder of Ancient Demon’s stories] went to a Catholic mass, where someone reached into my mind and came across my memory of Ancient Demon’s sharing the story of witnessing the crucifixion of Jesus Christ. "
Thus the charge can be laid at you that you sought to mislead readers of your comments on this site into thinking that the user John Human is quoting someone else, when in fact he is quoting himself, and is not making it clear.

I fail to see the logic in your assertion. On my little website, I am identifed as "John Human," the same as here. I have made no attempt to mislead, and I am pleased to clarify as needed. Furthermore, my imagination had nothing to do with Ancient Demon's account (which I typed without thought): I was indeed quoting someone else.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 6 by John Human]

You linked to another website, providing a quotation, but HERE on this website, you did not make it clear to readers that the website is your own, that the quotation is yourself.

Imagine if Richard Dawkins, when asked what the God character is like, said "Well, here in this book the God Delusion, God is clearly murderous and ruthless", without making it clear that this is his own book he is quoting from.

Furthermore, my imagination had nothing to do with Ancient Demon's account (which I typed without thought): I was indeed quoting someone else.

You have no evidence of that. It's just a few paragraphs of you claiming to have been told a story by some supernatural entity who was supposedly there 2,000 years ago. Of course anyone who thinks like you would fire back "But I didn't make it up!" (or words to that effect), but what are you going to do to show that you didn't?

Anyway, your Ancient Demon assertions are off topic and I will not be responding to them anymore. Good day.

[John Human]

[Replying to post 6 by John Human]

Furthermore, my imagination had nothing to do with Ancient Demon's account (which I typed without thought): I was indeed quoting someone else.

You have no evidence of that.

Um hello, first-hand testimony is and always has been evidence.

It's just a few paragraphs of you claiming to have been told a story by some supernatural entity who was supposedly there 2,000 years ago. Of course anyone who thinks like you would fire back "But I didn't make it up!" (or words to that effect), but what are you going to do to show that you didn't?

It's not just a few paragraphs on that website; Ancient Demon's stories go on for about 40 pages or so. And your following statement would seem to show that your previous question wasn't serious, so I'll step back from that one, at least here and now.

Anyway, your Ancient Demon assertions are off topic and I will not be responding to them anymore. Good day.

[Divine Insight]

According to Christianity, the man named Jesus Christ (believed by some Christians to be God incarnate) paid the ransom price for the rebellious sin of Adam and Eve. That with Christ's death, God is now able to forgive humanity.

This makes absolutely no sense to me at all. If this was needed to forgive humanity then it should have been offered to Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden.

Christianity is a religious mythology that offers far too little too late.

[Divine Insight]

All I can see is a man, innocent according to his supporters, being unjustly executed.

If your view is that Jesus was merely a man who was unjustly put to death then it follows you would not see the theological significance of his death on the cross.

Did humanity change? Learn, grow? Did God?

If Jesus was merely a man, then nothing on a cosmic level changed. There was nothing significant about his death in that case. If, on the other hand, Jesus was in fact the Son of God then that would be a game changer.

Actually just the opposite is true.

If Jesus was just a man then Jesus would have been the vindication for all mankind. Because in this case Jesus would have been a man who was able to never sin.

On the other hand, if Jesus was God incarnate (or the demigod Son of God), then all this would amount to is a God who is playing extreme games with humans as his pawns. In my personal opinion if this were the case, then this would be a God that I could never condone as being ethical or just. It would be a God who simply plays humans for fools as his ignorant pets.

Moreover, if Jesus truly was God incarnate (or the demigod Son of God) then the idea that Jesus could have sinned would be ridiculous. Therefore there would be nothing impressive about a Jesus who supposedly never sinned. Because remember God is supposed to hate sin, so why should God be tempted to do what he hates?

So Jesus as God incarnate fails as well.

And Jesus as the demigod Son of God fails too because this would then require that Jesus came into being when he was born through Mary, as well as requiring Christianity to instantly become a polytheistic religion. This would then become no different from Greek Mythology with their demigod "Sons of God".

There are also many other extreme problems with the whole paradigm. If Jesus truly did have divine knowledge then he should have known everything. And if he didn't have divine knowledge then he had no business claiming to know what God's kingdom would be like, or whether there even existed a life after death, etc.

So the whole story fails no matter how hard we might try to salvage it.

Believe me. Everyone no doubt thinks of me as being a "non-Christian", but nothing could be further from the truth. I'm simply a Christian who has recognized that Christianity cannot be made to work. A Christian who has recognized the the entire religion is nothing more than a man-made scam.

There's no need for to continue to believe in a theology that has clearly shot itself in the foot countless times over. Why change what people call me? I'm still a "Christian" born and raised as a Christian, baptized in a Christian Church. Nothing can ever change that. I'll be a "Christian" till the day I die.

The only difference between me and many other Christians is that I have recognized that the religion is a farce.

Is there a God?

I have no clue. Perhaps there is, and perhaps there isn't.

But one thing I can know with absolute certainty is that Christianity is a clearly false man-made religion.

In fact, if you actually take the time to think about it carefully, Christianity is actually a religion that is the gravest insult to the very concept of "God". I can't think of any other religion that would be a greater insult to the concept of a God.