God creates only atheists.

Jagella · Post by **Jagella** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:17 am

If the Christian god exists, then he has created us all (with some help from men and women having sex and women bearing children). Oddly, though, this god does not create us as Christians but as atheists. Creating us this way requires babies to be taught Christianity by their parents and elders which involves risk that babies may be taught the "wrong kind of Christianity," they won't be taught Christianity at all, they may be taught a "false" religion, or worst of all--they may taught that Christianity like all religions is a con game.

These facts beg the...

Question for Debate: Why does God create us as atheists?

I think it's safe to say that God could create us all as Christians, and it seems strange to me that he would not create us as Christians. Since we are born as atheists, it appears to cast doubt on the existence of any gods. Belief in gods then is not innate but was invented by people who wish to control other people.

For further reading see Ryan T. Cragun's What You Don't Know About Religion (but Should), Pages 27-31.

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:42 am

[Replying to Jagella]

This would mean that atheism is unthinking stupidity. It means that Christianity requires rational thought, while atheism does not.

I tend to have a more positive view of atheism than this, but perhaps I am in the wrong.

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:31 am

Jagella wrote: Question for Debate: Why does God create us as atheists?

A question I have been asking Christians to think about for years now. They are stuck behind a double barreled doctrine that 1. we are created at conception or birth (no one knows which) and 2. we are evil from conception or birth.

They'd much rather solve their cognitive dissonance with double think, ie, believing two opposites are both true at the same time (GOD cannot create evil yet HE creates evil people by making them human in Adam's sin) than even consider the theology that rejects both these things are true at the same time,

but rather contends that only those who have chosen to be sinful by their free will have any sin accrued to them. That is, all sinners were created innocent and able to choose but were self created sinful by their free will decison to rebel against GOD.

Add into this mix that NO Church teaches that Satan was created evil yet most teach that HIS sheep, HIS future heavenly Bride, were ALL created disgustingly evil and corrupt evil in Adam's sin!!! <head shake, facepalm>

Divine Insight · Post by **Divine Insight** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:32 am

bjs wrote: [Replying to Jagella]

This would mean that atheism is unthinking stupidity. It means that Christianity requires rational thought, while atheism does not.

It wouldn't mean that at all. If Christianity required rational thought then only rational people would he Christians, but just the opposite is true. Even the Christian apologists openly confess that it requires faith in non-evidenced things to believe in Christianity. Heck, even the Bible itself makes this claim. Or at lest Paul did.

Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

How is it rational that faith could be the evidence of things hoped for but not seen?

This very claim requires a complete abandonment of rational thought.

Divine Insight · Post by **Divine Insight** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 11:42 am

ttruscott wrote:
Jagella wrote: Question for Debate: Why does God create us as atheists?
A question I have been asking Christians to think about for years now. They are stuck behind a double barreled doctrine that 1. we are created at conception or birth (no one knows which) and 2. we are evil from conception or birth.

They'd much rather solve their cognitive dissonance with double think, ie, believing two opposites are both true at the same time (GOD cannot create evil yet HE creates evil people by making them human in Adam's sin) than even consider the theology that rejects both these things are true at the same time,

but rather contends that only those who have chosen to be sinful by their free will have any sin accrued to them. That is, all sinners were created innocent and able to choose but were self created sinful by their free will decison to rebel against GOD.

Add into this mix that NO Church teaches that Satan was created evil yet most teach that HIS sheep, HIS future heavenly Bride, were ALL created disgustingly evil and corrupt evil in Adam's sin!!! <head shake, facepalm>

Agreed. This theology makes no sense at all. The problem is that PCE doesn't help. All it does is push the very same problem back into an imagined life before birth. But the problem is that the same problem would then exist in that previously life. In other words, in order for PCE to be a solution to this problem, the people who became evil in their previously life would have needed to have yet another previously life before that that would explain how they became evil in their current life. So PCE fails to address this paradox.

A far better solution is to simply recognize that evolution by natural selection makes far more sense. The reason the world isn't perfect is because it was never created by a perfect God to begin with. Period.

That's rational thinking. A theology that has a perfect God creating imperfect humans is not rational thinking. Even if he merely allows them to become imperfect by free will choice. Keep in mind, that this would need to be true even in PCE, so PCE doesn't solve this problem in any case. You would still need a God who creates imperfect humans. When he does it would be irrelevant. This life, or a previous life, wouldn't make any difference at all.

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:16 pm

Divine Insight wrote: It wouldn't mean that at all. If Christianity required rational thought then only rational people would he Christians, but just the opposite is true. Even the Christian apologists openly confess that it requires faith in non-evidenced things to believe in Christianity. Heck, even the Bible itself makes this claim. Or at lest Paul did.

A better term would be "conscious thought."

Jagella · Post by **Jagella** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 1:46 pm

bjs wrote:This would mean that atheism is unthinking stupidity. It means that Christianity requires rational thought, while atheism does not.

In a sense I agree with what you're saying here. Atheism, as a lack of belief, doesn't involve much thinking at all. Even the "stupidest" people can easily be atheists. Christianity, on the other hand, often requires years of study to attain what the Christian hopes is a rational basis. Saint Thomas Aquinas, for example, recognized by Catholics and many non-Catholics as an ingenious theologian and apologist, needed to study the philosophy of Aristotle to come up with reasons to believe the Christian god exists.

I tend to have a more positive view of atheism than this, but perhaps I am in the wrong.

Atheism needs no "positive view." As we have seen it comes naturally while religions like Christianity need much learning as a basis. This fact doesn't make atheism "right," but it does call into question any god that presumably created us.

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:46 pm

Jagella wrote:
I tend to have a more positive view of atheism than this, but perhaps I am in the wrong.
Atheism needs no "positive view." As we have seen it comes naturally while religions like Christianity need much learning as a basis. This fact doesn't make atheism "right," but it does call into question any god that presumably created us.

Im not sure that the mindless you here refer to as atheism comes naturally to humans. Certainly people are born without the ability to think rationally. However, with few exception as people grow we seek more complex idea and become capable of abstract rational thought. History has shown that, on a cultural level, this ability inevitably leads to a search for God. So we might be born as creatures incapable of grasping complex thoughts, but we grow in creatures who by nature search for God.

If there is a God, it would seem that He does not want us to remain mindless infants.

Post by **Tcg** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:13 pm

bjs wrote:
So we might be born as creatures incapable of grasping complex thoughts, but we grow in creatures who by nature search for God.

We grow into creatures who seek ways to deny the existential realities of life, with death likely being the key. For many, God is accepted as a means to accomplish this denial. There is no need for God/gods to be real to provide this function

If there is a God, it would seem that He does not want us to remain mindless infants.

If there is a God, one has to wonder why humans have to create arguments that attempt to prove his existence unless God himself has remained a mindless infant that can't figure out a way to make his existence obvious.

Tcg

William · Post by **William** » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:15 pm

Jagella: If the Christian god exists, then he has created us all (with some help from men and women having sex and women bearing children).

William: GOD did not create us. We are aspects/particles of GOD and in that, eternal beings. The 'us' you refer to, are the forms that we occupy in this particular universe.

Jagella: Oddly, though, this god does not create us as Christians but as atheists.

William: We are not "Christians" or "Atheists". Those are merely positions created through the experience, in hindsight.
Essentially a GOD created our forms. Our forms are not "Christian" or "Atheist". Our forms are "biological/animal".
Both Atheists and Christians tend toward self identifying as the form they occupy.
The form should not be confused with position of belief, by these "Atheism" or "Christianity" or any other position.

Jagella: Creating us this way requires babies to be taught Christianity by their parents and elders which involves risk that babies may be taught the "wrong kind of Christianity," they won't be taught Christianity at all, they may be taught a "false" religion, or worst of all--they may taught that Christianity like all religions is a con game.

William: That statement veers away from the subject of the claim.What it does show is that for a major part of the population, there is something about us which has little to do with the forms we occupy.

Jagella: These facts...

William: These are not facts you have presented. They are opinions about circumstance.
Conflating "opinion" with "fact" doesn't help your argument.

Jagella:...beg the...Question for Debate: Why does God create us as atheists?

William: The 'question begged' rely's on the premise laid out. The answers coming forth from that, will be askew, if the premise itself is askew.
Clearly in the case of this OP, the premise is askew, and relies a lot of speculative opinion disguised as "fact".

Jagella: I think it's safe to say that God could create us all as Christians, and it seems strange to me that he would not create us as Christians.

William: Why would you want to be 'created as a Christian'?
What can you tell us about your idea of 'what is a christian' and why your idea of 'what is a christian' is the correct opinion and therefore can be declared as fact?

Jagella: Since we are born as atheists, it appears to cast doubt on the existence of any gods.

William: That explains one reason why doubt in GODs existing occurs in some folk. When one believes that "we are born as atheists", doubt arises. That seems natural enough in the circumstances Jagella.

Jagella: Belief in gods then is not innate but was invented by people who wish to control other people.

William: The same can be said of the secular systems. Controlling other people is natural enough in the circumstances. If you are referring to the way people are controlled so that the controllers are gaining at the expense of the controlled, and what is gained is riches, elitism etc, then perhaps we might agree that such is not a product of "Christianity" or "Atheism" but something else entirely.
I write this, motivated by the idea that we can all learn the differences properly.
Any idea of GOD is not always required by those types of controllers. They have ways in which those who lack belief in GODs are equally controlled.
If the control is based in evil as its primary motivation, whether the controlled declare themselves "Christian" or "Atheist" makes no difference to those pulling the strings.

What GOD created us to experience was what it is like to have a beginning- for the purpose of the experience being as genuine as possible, we have forms which enable this to happen most naturally. We were 'born' ignorant of data...a blank slate position.

If you want to declare "atheism" as those who are ignorant of data in a blank slate position (words along those lines) you veer away from the standard meaning of "Atheist" which is someone who - having encountered ideas of GODs, has chosen to believe that "GODs do not exist" and - as can be verified throughout this message board - posts made by those calling themselves "Atheists" give their reasons for not believing in the existence of GODs along the lines of "We do not see GODs (or fairies or unicorns etc) therefore, we do not believe GODs (or fairies or unicorns etc) exist, therefore (that is why) we are "Atheists".
Not;
"We were born "atheists" therefore we are "Atheists" therefore if GOD does exist, GOD created us not to believe that GODs exists.

It is sadly funny, I find.

Debating Christianity and Religion

God creates only atheists.

God creates only atheists.

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Re: God creates only atheists.

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Re: God creates only atheists.