"Jesus was in no way a Jew," Wllum

[Danmark]

William claims Jesus was not a Jew. His reasons appear faulty to me, but it may be worthy of debate.

Jesus was in no way a Jew.
He defied commandments.
He practiced and suggested blasphemy.
There is no divine impetus or scripture to suggest a Jewish mother makes you Jewish. It is a completely human convention and...

Deuteronomy 23:2 makes bastard-born people excluded from the assembly of God...

"No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD."


You may say that since God did the immaculating, [sic] that it was sanctioned, the issue is, so few Jews believed this, and OFFICIALLY he was the son of an unholy union between a Roman soldier and a naughty young woman, that you really have no basis at all to make the claim.

In fact, even if Jesus was the son of God, mom could have been a kangaroo, for all the difference it would make.

viewtopic.php?p=984119#984119

[Willum]

[Replying to post 5 by Danmark]

Well regarding equivocation...
In order to be honest, I must equivocate, some:
Certainly there is a convention that if mom is Jewish, then the children are.

However, it is inconsistently applied.
It is not logically applied.

It is not applied at all times in history.

Can it be applied if someone doesn't want to be Jewish?

So, I will hold with my reasons for Jesus not being a Jew.
The New Testament gives Jesus' lineage by father, not Mary... ergo paterlinearity.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 8 by Danmark]

And there we are.
Being Jewish, is often patalienear as well. It depends on the decade and who is counting.

"Patalienear? Perhaps you meant "patrilineal." In any event, you have not offered any support for your claim.

"Although the Hebrew Bible defines Jewish identity in patrilineal terms (determined by the identity of the father) the Mishnah states that the offspring of a Jewish mother and a non-Jewish father is recognized as a Jew, while the offspring of a non-Jewish mother and a Jewish father is considered a non-Jew. This talmudic position became normative in Jewish law."
https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... l-descent/

I have no position on this, but it is clear that at least according to the Talmud and tradition, Jesus was a Jew if genetics counts for anything. Your burden is to prove Jesus was NOT a Jew.

Other than claiming personal authority as to who is and is not a Jew, you have provided nothing for your claim.

There is another enormous anomaly in your claims. You claim the gospels are not authority on this matter, even claiming they are no more relevant than Grimm's Fairy Tales; yet you rely on them for the teachings of Jesus from which you claim proof he was not a Jew. Which is it? Are the gospels valid historical evidence or not?

[Danmark]

So, I will hold with my reasons for Jesus not being a Jew.
The New Testament gives Jesus' lineage by father, not Mary... ergo paterlinearity.

Here again you are wrong. The NT traces the Jewish heritage of Jesus thru both Mary and Joseph. The New Testament provides two accounts of the genealogy of Jesus, one in the Gospel of Matthew and another in the Gospel of Luke. Matthew's account follows the lineage of Joseph, while Luke's follows the lineage of Mary.
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genealogy_of_Jesus

The Gospels were careful about this because they wanted to justify the claim that Jesus was the Jewish Messiah. I personally do not claim either genealogy is accurate. But the burden is on you to demonstrate neither of his parents were Jews AND that he was by practice and teaching "not a Jew." You have not offered an iota of credible evidence for your claim.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 13 by Danmark]

So, his father was really Joseph?
I thought it was God?!

It is either God or Tiberius Panderia, and GUESS WHAT?

If God, it doesn't matter if Jesus' mom was a kangaroo, and if Panderia, then he would not be a Jew, by Deuteronomy.

Catch 22.

That was fun. I like being wrong. It is almost as if I walked into it.

As to support;
I find you have provided nothing to dissuade it, and indeed provided support for it.
Also - you provided in the OP my support.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 13 by Danmark]

So, his father was really Joseph?
I thought it was God?!

It is either God or Tiberius Panderia, and GUESS WHAT?

If God, it doesn't matter if Jesus' mom was a kangaroo, and if Panderia, then he would not be a Jew, by Deuteronomy.

Catch 22.

That was fun. I like being wrong.

Good! You should by VERY happy then.

I don't think Jesus' father was 'God,' but if he was and God is the God of the Jews, then Jesus is a Jew. if his father was Joseph and his mother Mary, he's a Jew. If a Roman soldier was the father and Mary the mother, he was a Jew according to the Talmud.

He was also a Jew by culture and based on what he taught and what the other Jews and Rabbis thought about him.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 15 by Danmark]

Ecstatic, happier by the keystroke!

That is a wrinkle I hadn't considered!
Was God's mom a Jew?

The creator of all is defined by Jewishness?
That seems silly. Of course it works the other way around.

NO ONE CLAIMS HIS father was Joseph. You have two options: Panderia and God.

However Jesus did not follow Jewish culture.
He abrogated the penalty for adultery.
He claimed you could eat anything without becoming unclean.
Advocated paying the god Caesar.
Advocated obeying a pagan government.

Just how many things must he do, not to be Jewish?
I mean they insisted he be killed for non-Jewishness.

I am sorry, but it just occurred to me how funny it is to consider a God or demi-god constrained by a human convention.

[OnceConvinced]

They put "king of the Jews" to mock him.

Sure, but it was referring to him as "king" where the mocking comes into it. Why would they say "of the Jews" if they didn't recognise him as one?

Why would Jews call him Rabbi if he wasn't considered a fellow jew?

Mark 9:5, Mark 11:21, Mark 14:45, John 1:49, John 1:49, 4:31, 6:25, 9:2 and 11:8.

Rabbi def (Wikipedia:
In Judaism, "rabbi" is a title of respect for a particularly learned member of a Jewish community.Most rabbis earn their title by studying Jewish law at a seminary or yeshiva. In addition, rabbis often act as the religious leader of a Jewish community.

However Jesus did not follow Jewish culture.
He abrogated the penalty for adultery.
He claimed you could eat anything without becoming unclean.
Advocated paying the god Caesar.
Advocated obeying a pagan government.

So you're trying to say he wasn't a true Jew then? The True Scotsman Fallacy?

Seems to me he was a Jewish heretic. Or a Jew trying to start up his own cult.
Who knows. Maybe somewhere down the track he became an ex-Jew?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 17 by OnceConvinced]

Remember, they had no reason, Biblical or not to call him a Rabbi. He had not been ordained in any way. He was not blessed by the Temple and so on - John the Baptist got his authority from Jesus and contrary-wise, so their story goes.

So why did they call him Rabbi?
It's just a story.

The real Rabbi had him killed for not being a Jew.
QED.

OK, let's assume it is not just a story.
The real Rabbi had him killed for not being a Jew.
QED.

RE No true Scotsman?
No, my reasons are in the OP.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 15 by Danmark]

Ecstatic, happier by the keystroke!

That is a wrinkle I hadn't considered!
Was God's mom a Jew?

The creator of all is defined by Jewishness?
That seems silly. Of course it works the other way around.

NO ONE CLAIMS HIS father was Joseph. You have two options: Panderia and God.

Wrong. Virtually everyone who does not buy into the 'immaculate conception' by a 'god' hogwash believes it was Joseph, her betrothed. That is the most likely rational explanation. Even your citation to Panderia refers to it as a "hypothetical."

[Willum]

[Replying to post 19 by Danmark]

That requires a reference.