"better than both is the one who has never been born&qu

[Compassionist]

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:

I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.

And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.

But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.

Given the above verses, why do Christians have children? I would have preferred it if my parents did not have me and my brother. In fact, I think it is better for all sentient biological organisms to never be conceived into this horrific world full of suffering because then they would never suffer.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Compassionist]

The congregator's point was not that life is pointless but rather that that life without God in it is ultimately pointless. Notice how the book of Ecclesiates ends ...

ECCLESIASTES 12:13 - Good News Translation

After all this, there is only one thing to say: Have reverence for God, and obey his commands, because this is all that we were created for.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 1 by Compassionist]

Given the above verses, why do Christians have children?

Because it's easier to create than recruit.
Created followers can be brainwashed a lot easier than those who have experience with life.
It's simply easier to have kids and try to force them in to any religion/cult than it is to try to bring in an adult with normal mental faculties.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Compassionist]

Given the above verses, why do Christians have children?

Because it's easier to create than recruit.
Created followers can be brainwashed a lot easier than those who have experience with life.
It's simply easier to have kids and try to force them in to any religion/cult than it is to try to bring in an adult with normal mental faculties.

That is a rather extreme conclusion. Are you sure there are no Christians that have children for the same reasons atheists have them?

[Compassionist]

[Replying to post 1 by Compassionist]

The congregator's point was not that life is pointless but rather that that life without God in it is ultimately pointless. Notice how the book of Ecclesiates ends ...

ECCLESIASTES 12:13 - Good News Translation

After all this, there is only one thing to say: Have reverence for God, and obey his commands, because this is all that we were created for.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

Yes, I know how it ends. My problem is that the Biblical God is either evil or imaginary.

We live in an evil world where the evil prosper and the innocent perish. I define good as anyone and anything that helps anyone and anything. I define evil as anyone and anything that harms anyone and anything. By these definitions, everyone and everything is a mixture of good and evil. Some are more good than evil while others are more evil than good. "Might is right. Adapt or die." That's the only rule of reality. Just study the last 4 billion years of history to see that my conclusion is based entirely on evidence. 99.9% of all species to ever exist on Earth are already extinct. We are in the middle of a human-caused sixth mass extinction which may kill the remaining 0.1% of all the species. I wish life was fair for all and free from suffering and death but I can't make it so. Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com and and

Given the evil world we live in and the evil verses in the Bible, the Biblical God is either evil or imaginary.

The Bible is not evidence. If you assume it is true, the Biblical God is profoundly unjust and cruel e.g. he punishes all women and children with horrific childbirth because of Eve's alleged mistake. I think the story of the Fall was made up by misogynists who fabricated the story to blame women when the fact is that women are simply victims of biology. Many women and babies have died due to the narrow birth canal. If God was real and good, God would not have created such a narrow birth canal.

The knowledge we have from astronomy, geology and biology proves the Biblical creation story to be false. I can email you PowerPoint slideshows if you want to know more about how astronomy, geology and biology prove the Biblical creation story to be false. This forum doesn't let me upload files. Thank you.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to post 1 by Compassionist]

Given the above verses, why do Christians have children?

Because it's easier to create than recruit.
Created followers can be brainwashed a lot easier than those who have experience with life.
It's simply easier to have kids and try to force them in to any religion/cult than it is to try to bring in an adult with normal mental faculties.

That's true. Most religious people were brainwashed from being in the womb. I wish I were born to secular parents instead of religious parents. I wasted most of my life so far on religion. I hate the lies of religions and the tyranny of religions which use ignorance and fear to control people.

[1213]

... I think it is better for all sentient biological organisms to never be conceived into this horrific world full of suffering because then they would never suffer.

Then they also would have no good things. I think the best things are worth the suffering. Also, I think in many cases the suffering is quite subjective feeling that could be overcome.

[Overcomer]

The atheist who is a proponent of naturalism has a far greater problem with evil than the Christian does. For the atheist, everything just is. There is no "ought to be" such and such a way. Why? Because if everything evolved at random, by chance, the best way that it could, and if, as Dawkins puts it, we're all just dancing to our DNA, then how can the atheist put blame on anything or anybody? Everything just is. Period.

The Christian, on the other hand, knows what evil is, how it entered the world, and, most importantly, how to deal with it. We know that Jesus Christ has defeated it, not entirely yet, but he will do so completely when he returns.

As for people being brainwashed from the womb, how do you explain those Christians who came to Christ as adults -- people like C. S. Lewis, J. Warner Wallace, Lee Strobel, Alistair McGrath -- all people who were atheists for decades and who became apologists for Christ? All of them found the evidence for God and for the truth of Christianity so compelling that they left atheism behind and entered into a relationship with Jesus and they did so as adults.

[Tcg]

The atheist who is a proponent of naturalism has a far greater problem with evil than the Christian does. For the atheist, everything just is. There is no "ought to be" such and such a way. Why? Because if everything evolved at random, by chance, the best way that it could, and if, as Dawkins puts it, we're all just dancing to our DNA, then how can the atheist put blame on anything or anybody? Everything just is. Period.

Secular humanism is a philosophy not based on theism that includes a basis for ethics and morality. Theism does not hold a monopoly on morality.

The Christian, on the other hand, knows what evil is, how it entered the world, and, most importantly, how to deal with it. We know that Jesus Christ has defeated it, not entirely yet, but he will do so completely when he returns.

Correction: Some Christians believe they know what evil is. Some believe they know how it entered the world. Some belive they know how to deal with it. Some believe that Jesus has partially dealt with it. Some believe he will deal with it completely when he returns.

As for people being brainwashed from the womb, how do you explain those Christians who came to Christ as adults -- people like C. S. Lewis, J. Warner Wallace, Lee Strobel, Alistair McGrath -- all people who were atheists for decades and who became apologists for Christ? All of them found the evidence for God and for the truth of Christianity so compelling that they left atheism behind and entered into a relationship with Jesus and they did so as adults.

I didn't notice anyone claiming that being brainwashed from the womb is the only method by which people become Christians. I'm not arguing that "being brainwashed from the womb" is fully an accurate phrase, however, it is clear that familial and societal influence play a huge part in the convictions people reach.


Tcg

[bluegreenearth]

The atheist who is a proponent of naturalism has a far greater problem with evil than the Christian does. For the atheist, everything just is. There is no "ought to be" such and such a way. Why? Because if everything evolved at random, by chance, the best way that it could, and if, as Dawkins puts it, we're all just dancing to our DNA, then how can the atheist put blame on anything or anybody? Everything just is. Period.

The Christian, on the other hand, knows what evil is, how it entered the world, and, most importantly, how to deal with it. We know that Jesus Christ has defeated it, not entirely yet, but he will do so completely when he returns.

As for people being brainwashed from the womb, how do you explain those Christians who came to Christ as adults -- people like C. S. Lewis, J. Warner Wallace, Lee Strobel, Alistair McGrath -- all people who were atheists for decades and who became apologists for Christ? All of them found the evidence for God and for the truth of Christianity so compelling that they left atheism behind and entered into a relationship with Jesus and they did so as adults.

Straw-man. Why not simply ask atheists for their perspective?