Are we living in the last days?

[otseng]

From speaking with my brothers and sister, far from undermining our faith and causing confusion, the impact of coronavirus only serves to strengthen our conviction we are living in the last days and our resolve to preach the good news of the kingdom before the Lord tells us the work is complete.

For debate:
Are we living in the last days?

[Thomas123]

Desperate needs require desperate measures.

Should America organize a coalition to invade Brazil. There is precedent for this type of action , in the oil rich Middle East. The biggest threat to our future quality of life is the deforestation of the Amazonian Rainforest. Brazil cannot be trusted with the protection of this vital world resource. Should we launch a Forest Storm offensive? Why not?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defores ... rainforest

"Brazil ranks 49.3 in the Gini coefficient index, with the richest 10% of Brazilians earning 42.7% of the nation's income, the poorest 34% earn less than 1.2%."

[Thomas123]

The human will not go quietly into the night. This doomsday scenario can only come about through a cosmic impact that destroys all life or a nuclear blitzkrieg of unimaginable stupidity.

My last days increase with the interventions of modern medicines.(5 per day)
I have heart afib, which is very common.
An expert stated today that a Coronavirus Vaccine ,when made, will require an annual booster programme to remain effective. My exponential ' last days 'increase is being spent within a mood of a dependence on medication. This is a very weird urgency!

[Mithrae]

What about if the Jewish people and religion ceased to identifiably exist, rendering all the predictions centered around them impossible?

The existence of the political state of Israel and the Jewish people is utterly irrelevant to future biblical prophecy. They ceased to be relevant as a people when they rejected the Messiah. If the State of Israel was wiped out tomorrow biblically nothing whatsoever would change.

Are you suggesting that Matthew's Jesus was wrong/irrelevant in the claim that after the gospel had been preached to all nations and the end will come, believers would see an abomination of desolation standing in the holy place of Judea (Matt. 24:14-16)?

And that John and the voices in his head had simply got the wrong building, when they measured the temple of God in Jerusalem where 'the beast' would kill two witnesses (Rev. 11:1-10)? According to verse 2 seems that only non-Gentiles would be permitted into the inner areas of that temple... who do you suppose that means?

[JehovahsWitness]

What about if the Jewish people and religion ceased to identifiably exist, rendering all the predictions centered around them impossible?

The existence of the political state of Israel and the Jewish people is utterly irrelevant to future biblical prophecy. They ceased to be relevant as a people when they rejected the Messiah. If the State of Israel was wiped out tomorrow biblically nothing whatsoever would change.

Are you suggesting that Matthew's Jesus was wrong/irrelevant in the claim that after the gospel had been preached to all nations and the end will come, believers would see an abomination of desolation standing in the holy place of Judea (Matt. 24:14-16)?

The first century fulfilment of Jesus prophecy did indeed refernthe destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. When I said "future" I meant future of the point in the first century when the Jewish temple system came to an end and the nation as a whole was rejected by God for their unfaithfulness.

a) Jehovahs Witnesses have already preached the good news worldwide. (Matthew 24:14). For more on this see THIS LINK here
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 538#988538

b) the future and major fulfilment of the "discusting thing" (abomination) has nothing to do with the political State of Israel or the literal city of Jerusalem.

The book of Revelation is highly symbolic, it's references to "Jerusalem" and "the temple" should not be taken literally.



JW

[Zzyzx]

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The book of Revelation is highly symbolic, it's references to "Jerusalem" and "the temple" should not be taken literally.

If it is acknowledge that parts of the Bible are 'highly symbolic', what parts of the Bible should be taken as literally true?

What methodology (not just opinion) can be employed to reliably distinguish between parts that are 'literally true' and parts that are 'highly symbolic'?

[Mithrae]

Are you suggesting that Matthew's Jesus was wrong/irrelevant in the claim that after the gospel had been preached to all nations and the end will come, believers would see an abomination of desolation standing in the holy place of Judea (Matt. 24:14-16)?

The first century fulfilment of Jesus prophecy did indeed refernthe destruction of Jerusalem in 70CE. When I said "future" I meant future of the point in the first century when the Jewish temple system came to an end and the nation as a whole was rejected by God for their unfaithfulness.

Claiming that Jesus told people to run to the hills only after they saw an abomination in the temple would be utterly useless (indeed, dangerous) advice in the context of the Jewish revolt. This prophecy of the abomination of desolation explicitly concerns "the end of the age" (v. 3, 6, 13) when Jesus would return (v. 3, 5, 27, 40); this abomination appears after the gospel had been preached to all nations (v. 14) during a time of tribulation unequalled at any prior or future time, so much so that it would threaten to destroy all flesh (v. 21-22). Not a single one of these descriptions applies to the first century, so either Jesus was wildly and laughably wrong, or you are incorrect in thinking that's what it's about (or both, of course).

The book of Revelation is highly symbolic, it's references to "Jerusalem" and "the temple" should not be taken literally.

That's a cop-out, not an answer. Many features of Revelation (eg. the 'beast' and the prostitute) make little or no sense read literally but lend themselves to fairly plausible symbolic interpretations (eg. the beast is a world leader or federation and the prostitute is an economic or religious system). In contrast references to the temple, its non-Gentile worshippers, the holy city and the earthquake which would hit it killing 7000 people all make literal sense: Merely claiming it's not literal without even a hint of any plausible alternative seems like little more than a ploy to avoid the obvious conclusion.


Daniel 9 is obviously another passage implying the existence of a Jewish temple at the end, though in that case at least one might argue (however dubiously) that all the wonderful stuff of verse 24 - an end to sin, everlasting righteousness and all that - all came to pass decades before the destruction of the second temple.

[Danmark]

I haven't read thru all the posts, so forgive me if this has been answered. By "last days" are you referring to those references in Matthew and elsewhere in the NT? Or are you including the Earth's last days from non supernatural forces.

From the point of view of humanity, we certainly could be at our 'last days,' since we are just one megalomaniac's whim away from destruction by forces nuclear or biologic.

But that would be entirely irrelevant to a specific prophesy about a supernatural 'end times.' I don't need to post here the thousands of apocalyptic prophesies that have gone unfulfilled. Within Christianity alone, there have been hundreds, starting with that of Jesus, recorded @2000 years ago.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 66 by Mithrae]

You are presuming that the "holy place" Jesus referred to was the temple proper rather than Jerusalem. Anyway the point I was making is that, unlike the past (first century) fulfillment which allowed faithful Christians to escape Jerusalem before the destruction of 70CE, the 21st century application of that same prophecy doesnt concern the literal city of Jerusalem but a SYMBOLIC one.

As for Revelation you presume that literal places, locations, people or details that exist in the real world cannot be taken to be symbolic of something else in the book of Revelation (or in Daniel). I do not happen to agree with your premise. Like the Pharisees of Jesus day, you miss much by assuming such a position - John 2:19-21.



JW

To learn more please go to other posts related to

THE LAST DAYS , MESSIANIC PROPHECY and ... THE BOOK OF REVELATION

[Mithrae]

[Replying to post 66 by Mithrae]

You are presuming that the "holy place" Jesus referred to was the temple proper rather than Jerusalem.

Matthew explicitly refers to the abomination spoken of by Daniel, who in both verses which mention an abomination associates it with cessation of sacrifice in the sanctuary/temple (9:27, 11:31). And whereas Jerusalem is sometimes referred to as the holy city, it is never called "the holy place"; instead, the holy place explicitly and repeatedly does refer to the outer sanctum of the temple (Ex. 26:33, 28:29, 29:30, 31:11, Lev. 6:30, 10:18 etc. etc.). Claiming that this is merely a "presumption" seems to suggest a shocking lack of biblical knowledge, at best.

That being the case - and since there is nothing of substance in the rest of your reply either, just more baseless claims of double meanings and "symbolic" interpretation of literal concepts - there seems to be little point in continuing this tangent. Particularly since the total disappearance of an identifiably Jewish people group is literally the least likely of the four possible falsification criteria I enquired about in post #52. So for the sake of argument let's allow in that unlikely scenario that some kind of weird interpretive gymnastics would allow Christians to still believe in their prophecies: Is there actually anything you would consider to be falsification of these vague and undated biblical prophecies?

Or will you like Timothy and apparently BJS presume them to be God's own truth unless and until the entire human race is extinct?

[otseng]

I haven't read thru all the posts, so forgive me if this has been answered. By "last days" are you referring to those references in Matthew and elsewhere in the NT? Or are you including the Earth's last days from non supernatural forces.

I'm mostly arguing from a non-religious perspective, but with carryover into a religious perspective.

From a secular perspective, we are definitely in the last days in the world as we know it. Globally, we are entering economic, societal, and political collapse. Looking at our dashboard, all the gauges and dials are spinning like crazy and the signs are off the charts. Just yesterday, crude oil hit negative $37.63 a barrel. What in the world does that mean? The central banks have all gone ballistic with their money printing with a current annualized rate of $23 trillion into the global economy. We have catastrophic job losses around the world, yet we have record high Nasdaq. Governments all across the world have transitioned into authoritarian regimes. Governments are on the pretense of "helping the working class" while in reality siphoning all the money to their friends and supporters. Meanwhile, millions of jobless people are out of money and food while the rich are getting bailed out with a kickback of $1.6 million each.

Is this all just the run-of-the-mill events that have occurred before in history? We are at a scale and magnitude of a global collapse that is unseen in the history of the world. So, comparisons to how we've had unfulfilled doomsday predictions from the past are not relevant. I guess it's possible we could get through this and go humming along as before after our V-shaped recovery. But, I highly doubt it.

Are we in Biblical end-times? I'm becoming more convinced of it. God cannot be mocked. We are all depraved and we cannot put off God's judgment forever. Just like the times of Noah, the hearts of people are evil and hardened, including those in the church. But, also like the times of Noah, forces will come and judge the nations.