Is The Creator Waiting...

[William]

William: On the fair presumption that we exist within a Creation, thus there is a Creator...

Q: Can we fairly ascertain that said Creator is expecting us to clean up our collective mess, and live according to Nature?

I think that this is the likely case. I think this because I understand we are imbued with certain qualities which, when handled correctly, are capable of assisting us in doing what must be done.

The main problem with this understanding appears to be that people in general have not found and activated that key insight - not because they do not have it or are not interested in it - but because they have been distracted from knowing that they even have it...and so even mere mention of it causes issue.

Current world events now allow us the opportunity to rethink...

[Divine Insight]

Q: Can we fairly ascertain that said Creator is expecting us to clean up our collective mess, and live according to Nature?

From my perspective it's humans who are trying to live a better life than nature provides naturally.

Nature is ruthless and the natural world is basically dog-eat-dog. It's humans who are trying to impose higher values onto nature.

So if there is a Creator who is waiting for us to live according to nature I can't imagine why he would expect us to lower our standards to such a degree.

You say:

On the fair presumption that we exist within a Creation, thus there is a Creator.

I don't see where that's a fair presumption at all. Why should we think that a Creator would create a naturally dog-eat-dog world filled with disease and many other hazards? I just don't see where there is any justification to presume that our world was purposefully created or designed. If it was, the designer was either incompetent or malevolent.

Even theists recognize this. Theists want to blame all the ills of our world on humans. The problem is that we now know that the world was always a dog-eat-dog world long before humans ever showed up on the planet. So the idea that the poor design of nature can be blamed on humans has no merit. Yet, that's what the Abrahamic religions absolutely require to be the case.

As far as I can see our modern knowledge of our world has already proven those religions to be false.

Are you suggesting that God is expecting us to act like monkeys?

Why would a creator expect us to return to acting like monkeys again?

You suggest that the Creator is waiting for us to live according to nature. Well the monkeys are already doing precisely that.

We are trying our best to rise above the ignorance of the natural world.

[Diagoras]

On the fair presumption that we exist

Agreed, so that we don't need to move this discussion to the Philosophy sub-forum.

within a Creation

Let's call it 'the physical universe'.

, thus there is a Creator...

Does not automatically follow.

Can we fairly ascertain that said Creator is expecting us to clean up our collective mess, and live according to Nature?

Define the following terms: 'clean up', 'collective mess', 'live according to Nature'.
Presupposes a 'Creator' with no evidence.
Presumes to understand said Creator's 'expectations' with no evidence.

I think that this is the likely case.

Opinion noted.

I think this because I understand we are imbued with certain qualities

Too vague to have any practical debate value.

which, when handled correctly

Ditto. What's 'correct' in this context?

, are capable of assisting us in doing what must be done.

Ditto. Equates to suggesting that 'someone should do something' - with about as much use.

The main problem with this understanding appears to be that people in general have not found and activated that key insight

What 'key insight'? Be specific.
Have you examples of any people who have activated it? That would be helpful here. And define 'activate' while you're at it.

- not because they do not have it or are not interested in it - but because they have been distracted from knowing that they even have it...and so even mere mention of it causes issue.

Difficult to address this when we don't have a clear picture of what 'it' is. Although I will agree that people in general can be distracted.

Current world events

Here's an excellent opportunity for you to be specific for once. Do you mean the Covid-19 pandemic, by any chance?

now allow us the opportunity to rethink...

Sure. About lots of things, like the risks of wider population movement, about social safety nets, the importance of basic human kindness as well as many other practical things. Sensible people will act on the basis that there's no invisible deity waiting in the wings to rescue/punish us, and will just 'get on with it'.

[William]

William: Q: Can we fairly ascertain that said Creator is expecting us to clean up our collective mess, and live according to Nature?

Divine Insight: From my perspective it's humans who are trying to live a better life than nature provides naturally.

Nature is ruthless and the natural world is basically dog-eat-dog. It's humans who are trying to impose higher values onto nature.

So if there is a Creator who is waiting for us to live according to nature I can't imagine why he would expect us to lower our standards to such a degree.

You say:

William: On the fair presumption that we exist within a Creation, thus there is a Creator.

Divine Insight: I don't see where that's a fair presumption at all. Why should we think that a Creator would create a naturally dog-eat-dog world filled with disease and many other hazards? I just don't see where there is any justification to presume that our world was purposefully created or designed. If it was, the designer was either incompetent or malevolent.

Even theists recognize this. Theists want to blame all the ills of our world on humans. The problem is that we now know that the world was always a dog-eat-dog world long before humans ever showed up on the planet. So the idea that the poor design of nature can be blamed on humans has no merit. Yet, that's what the Abrahamic religions absolutely require to be the case.

As far as I can see our modern knowledge of our world has already proven those religions to be false.

Are you suggesting that God is expecting us to act like monkeys?

Why would a creator expect us to return to acting like monkeys again?

You suggest that the Creator is waiting for us to live according to nature. Well the monkeys are already doing precisely that.

We are trying our best to rise above the ignorance of the natural world.

William: It never occurred to me that there are those who believe that nature is worse than humans.

It is a good point though, and goes a long way in explaining why some humans appear to be so bent on destroying nature.

While I can appreciate that those with such serious bent out of shape attitudes do vent, and cannot - in their particular world view (already seriously disturbed by a dog eat dog environment) cope with the addition fair presumption that they actually exist within a Creation and therefore there is a Creator.

Such topics are not for the faint of heart.

I suppose that one claiming "Theists want to blame all the ills of our world on humans." is the same as claiming "non theists want to blame the ills of the world on The Creator" - is being rather silly really - for the sweeping statements they are.

It is not the designs which are faulty - especially when it comes to human behavior.
For most of us, we can choose to do what we will, does not equate to a design flaw, no matter how hard one tries to twist it to appear that way.

What does one expect? That if there is a Creator, then The Creator should clean up the mess?

[William]

[Replying to post 3 by Diagoras]

William: Unfortunately your shredding up of my words from the OP coupled with the unreasonable request to have so many definitions for well known and simply ideas, leaves me with nothing to work with in relation to the OPQ and the reply you gave.

Go well.

[Divine Insight]

The main problem with this understanding appears to be that people in general have not found and activated that key insight

What 'key insight'? Be specific.
Have you examples of any people who have activated it? That would be helpful here. And define 'activate' while you're at it.

Exactly. If it we're talking about common sense, many people actually do have common sense. Is often the greedy people who lust for power to lead us all into a state of iniquity due to their own greed.

- not because they do not have it or are not interested in it - but because they have been distracted from knowing that they even have it...and so even mere mention of it causes issue.

Difficult to address this when we don't have a clear picture of what 'it' is. Although I will agree that people in general can be distracted.

Again, it's often the people who are in power who are behaving poorly. In fact, look at the current situation in my country, the USA. Most of the people are giving each other a helping hand and doing what they can to help others. While our leader is focused entirely on his own ego.

We can all see what the problem is there.

Current world events

Here's an excellent opportunity for you to be specific for once. Do you mean the Covid-19 pandemic, by any chance?

If so, that's actually good evidence that there is no "Creator". Especially not one that we can trust or consider benevolent. Covid-19 has been killing many innocent people. Many of them working on the front lines trying to save the lives of others. So if there's a Creator who is watching over this he clearly untrustworthy.

Same thing can be said for the countless innocent women who were tortured and burned alive on a stake in the name of the Creator. And the Creator didn't lift a finger to nip this in the bud before it even got underway?

Seems to me that this is compelling evidence for the absence of any imagined Creator. Especially a supposedly intelligent benevolent one who cares about humans.

now allow us the opportunity to rethink...

Sure. About lots of things, like the risks of wider population movement, about social safety nets, the importance of basic human kindness as well as many other practical things. Sensible people will act on the basis that there's no invisible deity waiting in the wings to rescue/punish us, and will just 'get on with it'.

Exactly. Of course many of us have been thinking about these things for many years already. Bill Gates has been warning about how unprepared the world is for a pandemic. And he's been giving lectures on this for many years. I've watched his lectures and I'm in total agreement with him.

It's not my fault that our country is currently under the control of a self-centered narcissist who couldn't find his way out of a paper bag to save his own life.

I'm quite sure that a lot of people care about other people and the health of our planet.

If there's a Creator who was waiting to see signs of caring intelligent humans then he's long overdue to show himself. We've been here for a very long time.

If he's waiting for every single person on the planet to wise up, then all I can say is that he's an extremely stupid creator. He should know better than to expect such a thing.

Not only that, but if there was a Creator who wanted humans to learn and grow he would be far better off showing himself, and making available mentors to help people raise their children properly instead of filling their children's heads with superstitions about an imaginary God who is going to take care of everything for them after they die.

A lot of religious people would actually love to see the world come to an end. Their religions tell them this is is when their Creator will come and save them and take them off to some imagined heaven.

So there's no incentive for them to try to make the world a great place to live.

[Divine Insight]

William: It never occurred to me that there are those who believe that nature is worse than humans.

Nature kills people randomly including innocent infants. Do you think humans should behave like that? If you think nature is better than humans you haven't been paying much attention.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 3 by Diagoras]

William: Unfortunately your shredding up of my words from the OP coupled with the unreasonable request to have so many definitions for well known and simply ideas, leaves me with nothing to work with in relation to the OPQ and the reply you gave.

Go well.

To the contrary. I think he did a wonderful job addressing every point you raised.

It's clear that you have nothing to work with. But that's obviously because you can't define what you mean by words like "it".

What is "it" that some people have and some people are missing?

As Diagoras asked. Can you give examples of anyone who has "it".

Apparently not.

If you want to debate a topic, you'll need to define it beyond calling it "it".

"It" is not a well-defined concept for debate.

[William]

William: That is the idea behind this thread topic really.

Q: Could it be that The Creator Created the Creation with the expectancy that Human Beings would make a mess of things but also would eventually come to the conclusion that they do not require assistance of any kind from - shall we say - outside intervention...because we were created to come to such conclusion in our own good time?

In that, the question is not really about which god supposedly said or did what. It is more about the fact that to date - no one has proven we are not existing within a creation, so the idea is very much on the same table as the idea we are not, anyway...and so it is from the platform of that concept, in relation to current world affairs unfolding - that the question is being asked.

In relation to Christianity specifically, the question will undoubtedly attract many differing answers....some who believe that Jesus will come and make people clean up the mess might answer "no" - others will argue that at the very least, Christians should be 'caught in the act' as it were - of helping to make a positive difference and may more likely answer "yes".

Some non-theists might use the very idea to complain about the mess the planet was before humans came along there is no reason to even contemplate any Creator or Creation...that idea appears to add poison to their particular drink...but even so - if the emotional energy it causes are channeled into 'doing the right thing' anyway - and they are active in some way with helping to clean up the mess, it all helps theists and non-theists alike, so doesn't in itself answer "no" to the OPQ...

The Creator is not "waiting on those" who are already occupied with helping clean up the mess...

Certainly the current world-wide situation of humanities lock-down is having a good effect on helping cleaning up the mess, as the planet shows us how quickly She can heal from the abuses of humanity.

[William]

William: On the fair presumption that we exist within a Creation, thus there is a Creator...

• Q: Can we fairly ascertain that said Creator is expecting us to clean up our collective mess, and live according to Nature?
  

I think that this is the likely case. I think this because I understand we are imbued with certain qualities which, when handled correctly, are capable of assisting us in doing what must be done.

The main problem with this understanding appears to be that people in general have not found and activated that key insight - not because they do not have it or are not interested in it - but because they have been distracted from knowing that they even have it...and so even mere mention of it causes issue.

Current world events now allow us the opportunity to rethink...

William: "The Key Insight" refers specifically to the OPQ.

In relation to that, the evidence that "even mere mention of it causes issue" was swiftly forth-coming by the very first couple of posts, proving the OP point.