Bullying and the Christian Mentality

[Purple Knight]

Question for Debate: Does the Christian mentality contribute to bullying?
(Even if people who are genuinely Christian are less inclined to bully others.)

I've been thinking about what underlies bullying. And I think it's the idea that innate evil exists. In other words, regardless of what this person does, they still deserve to be punished. I include here, people who believe in immoral thoughts - people who believe that those who think a certain thing, regardless of what they do, deserve to be punished.

Someone who beats a kid up for lunch money might not be a bully. They may be a tyrant, demanding their way, but if the kid gives up their lunch money, and the tyrant child never strikes him again, that's tyranny, not bullying. If the kid gives up their lunch money and the bully finds another reason to inflict a beating, that's bullying. The only meaningful thing that makes bullying different from simply demanding an action (which is done quite often in civil society; a person might demand to be given the item he paid for, for example) is that the bullying isn't based on action, or lack thereof. Bullying is done to certain people, because they are weak, because they are ugly, or because they are inherently evil. We can hurt this person because it is justified, and we can continue to do it no matter what they do, because their evil is them, and not what they say or do.

A bully might not think this through, but there's something about the person he chooses to pick on that makes him think it is justified. Otherwise he would pick on everyone, and he doesn't. Even if his only thought is, that person is weak, then he believes in the law of the jungle and thus, weakness is unrighteous in that it is deserving of punishment. So really the idea that people deserve to be hurt not for what they do or say, but for what they are... is the belief in inherent evil.

Now I full well understand that Christians are probably nicer and less likely to bully anyone than atheists, or even than other religious people.

What I'm wondering is if this one Christian idea - that we are all innately sinful - has passed into general Western culture and in effect given people license to bully.

One example that stands out seems to be the insistence on the unprovable claim that everyone is racist. Most people are? Fine. Yes probably. I agree different outcomes can't be explained unless that's true. But everyone? Seems awfully Christian-inspired.

[TRANSPONDER]

I was wondering whether to leave this one alone, but I'll bite.

let me make it simple (again ) Humans are mischievous monkeys and competitive critters. We evolved with the hand that evolution dealt us and we have to deal with it, not wring our hands because we are not perfect. We steal, we conflict, we discriminate, we control and we bully. This is something to try to make better, and we have actually done so. Understanding what we are and why we are ma help. Wailing that we are hopelessly sinful and only a magic wand can save us will not, and it is high time we stopped pretending that it will, or letting others tell us so.

Humanist ethics has done rather more, I think, than religious 'play nice', which seems an admirable aspiration (being perfect) but actually hasn't worked as well as hoped (even in monasteries) ans often less well than society - with holy wars, crusades and Biblicallly endorsed slavery, discrimination and inequality.

I have known a lot of Christians and some of other religions. and they can bully as well as any and worse when they think they are serving their religion. And the worst is, they are impervious to reason as they KNOW they are right on Faith, even when they are wrong.

[bjs1]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

Bullying has more to do with what a person feels about themselves than what they think about others.

Psychologically, a bully doesn’t think their victim deserves to be bullied. It is more likely the bully lacks the empathy necessary to think about what their victim feels. Or the bully may lack self-esteem, have issues with anger, a desire to lift themselves by dominating others, or want to inflict suffering on others that they have experienced in their own lives.

So no, I don’t think moral concepts, such as those in Christianity, contribute to bullying. The only degree to which a bully thinks about the other person is to find a target to bully. Beyond that, the bully thinks primarily about themselves.

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/bullyin ... %20problem

[TRANSPONDER]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

Bullying has more to do with what a person feels about themselves than what they think about others.

Psychologically, a bully doesn’t think their victim deserves to be bullied. It is more likely the bully lacks the empathy necessary to think about what their victim feels. Or the bully may lack self-esteem, have issues with anger, a desire to lift themselves by dominating others, or want to inflict suffering on others that they have experienced in their own lives.

So no, I don’t think moral concepts, such as those in Christianity, contribute to bullying. The only degree to which a bully thinks about the other person is to find a target to bully. Beyond that, the bully thinks primarily about themselves.

https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/bullyin ... %20problem

Gotta admit I liked that post. It does raise the semantics. Bullying (I suspect) requires an easy target, otherwise it's someone who is agressive and likes a challenge. Bullying requires an imbalance of power. Clearly, Religion can bully like nobody's business, individually, too, but there is a difference. Generally I don't think it is done out of personal malice, but a conviction, so it would be different, even if it looked just the same.

[William]

[Replying to Purple Knight in post #1]

BULLYING.

Question for Debate: Does the Christian mentality contribute to bullying?
(Even if people who are genuinely Christian are less inclined to bully others.)

If we are examining Christianity overall/throughout (from the Pope to the Kingdom Halls), then yes, we can identify bullying as part of the over Christian Entity Mentality.

Atheist. Now I full well understand that Christians are probably nicer and less likely to bully anyone than atheists, or even than other religious people.

What I'm wondering is if this one Christian idea - that we are all innately sinful - has passed into general Western culture and in effect given people license to bully.

The idea is what I think of as a Useful Fiction. Getting folk to go introspective by examining the claim internally to see if there is any truth to it, often shows there is truth to at least some of it. Some folks need that extra little bit of encouragement to go there and tidying up that which can be tidied up.

I think the Romans were the best at bullying and that is why their system stands today all Christian-like and iron-fisted. It is like the Romans found a means (through Christianity) in which to turn unwilling slaves into willing ones, and ones who would pay their own way and feel grateful for the opportunity to contribute.

Not to forget where this Bullying was first refined under One God….and how that God can indeed be said to being a Bully.

The underlying question re all this is whether there are types of Bullying which are acceptable, and if so, which are which?

The line Between Guidance and Bullying

[Purple Knight]

Bullying has more to do with what a person feels about themselves than what they think about others.

Psychologically, a bully doesn’t think their victim deserves to be bullied. It is more likely the bully lacks the empathy necessary to think about what their victim feels. Or the bully may lack self-esteem, have issues with anger, a desire to lift themselves by dominating others, or want to inflict suffering on others that they have experienced in their own lives.

This is a trope. I don't know if there's truth to it or not. I think this idea was started not because anyone thought it was true (though it still could be) but to rob bullies of the self-respect they get by exercising their power, with the aim that if everyone thinks bullies are really insecure, no one wants to project insecurity and so no one bullies. The fact that that didn't work, and there are still bullies, indicates to me that even if there is some truth to this idea, there are some instances where it isn't true.

In other words, a bully can be someone with low self-esteem, but if there wasn't self-esteem to be gained by bullying, I don't think anyone would do it. So a bully can also be someone with very very high self-esteem, who is looking to go even higher.

Moral bullies fit this bill. Particularly if they live where some problem does not affect them and demand that others take losses to do the moral option. For example, people who live where there is no immigration, favouring extremely high immigration because taking everyone who needs it is just the right thing to do.

[TRANSPONDER]

I guess we have two aspects. one is whether a Christian can be a bully. Yes, but in one aspect the religion is set aside.

The other aspect is whether the religion itself enables the bullying. Again the Rachel Slick story is a test case. Until she went to college she only lived under er nasty Father's domination. For the first time, she heard something other than the strict regime in her household. Then she realised how she had been lied to and controlled, all her life.

That is what Christianity will do, at worst, and it is Bible literalist misleading - such as we often see here - that will leas to it, if we allow these shills and enablers of denialist Christian fundamentalism to control us.

[Purple Knight]

The other aspect is whether the religion itself enables the bullying.

I actually don't think it does. You have to cherrypick if you're a Christian and a bully.

But if people other than Christians absorb this one poisonous idea that everyone falls short, everyone is sinful, it can become very very easy to just say, well, he deserves it.

[TRANSPONDER]

The other aspect is whether the religion itself enables the bullying.

I actually don't think it does. You have to cherrypick if you're a Christian and a bully.

But if people other than Christians absorb this one poisonous idea that everyone falls short, everyone is sinful, it can become very very easy to just say, well, he deserves it.

Nobody cherrypicks like a Christian. Never mind just doing whatever they want and pretending it is what God wants. And, yes, tribalism, whether using religion, culture, political dogma or just which team they cheer for, can justify prejudice, which is the godfather of bullying, and its' "They asked for it" justification of it..

[Purple Knight]

Nobody cherrypicks like a Christian.

I think some sects are an exception but yes. You might have bullies within the cherrypickers who latched onto the "everyone is sinful and basically evil" stuff, but doesn't really think humility or being nonjudgmental is that important.

To be fair, it's hard to take something that ought to be a virtue like pride and make it a sin. I'm not talking about being proud of nothing, I'm talking about pride you earned. To me, people who will boast their legitimate accomplishment are honest, and people who will efface it when they well know they did something wonderful, are trying to farm false virtue by being disingenuous.

The problem is, in Christianity you need these humility and nonjudgmental doctrines, because otherwise if you believe everyone is evil you'd go around punishing them.