suffering servant = Messiah = Jesus!

[Metacrock]

Can we demonstrate that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Jesus?

(1) we can demosntrate that he is the Messiah and not just Israel

(2) we can demonstrate that it fits Jesus better than anyone else.


by saying ss is not Isreael I am not excluding the possiblity that since Messiah comes out of Israel that it is both Isreal and an idnivudal person called "Messiah."



I. close reading of chatper will follow.



II. Messiah Will be Light to the Gentiles


A. Israel's Original Mission.


B. Israel cannot accomplish its mission without Messiah.


Messiah is contrasted with wayward Israel in several places Isaiah. Is 50:1-3 "Where is your mother's cirtificate of divorce withwhich I sent her away? OR to which of my creditors did I sell you? Becasue of your sins you were sold, because of your transgressions your mother was sent away....do I lack the strength to rescue you?

To which Messiah responds "...I have not been rebellious, I have not drawn back..." (v5)


1) Messiah to be covenant for Israel

"will keep you," God tells the Messiah "and will make you to be a covenant for the land." (Is 49:8-


2) Messiah to bring Israel back to God


Is 49:5

And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)

C. Messiah to bring Israel back AND be light to Gentiles.

49:6

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."



D. What the Sevant does in 53 is exactly

what the book says Messiah will do.


1) Messaih emerges out of Israel

Is 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

"My witnesses" is plural, "My servant" is signular. The servant is part of the witnesses, coming out of Israel, produced by the line of David. Edersheim documents that Rabbical authorites recognize this verse as pertianing to Messiah.



2) Messiah rejected

Is. 50:6 "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting..." And we see a rejected servant in 53, a "man of sarrows accounted with greif." This is one who "was despised and rejected."


3) Messiah accomplishes his task

Is 41:4


"here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight, I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring jutsice to the nations." Or chater 11: 1 which is clearly marked out as the Messiah: "A shoot will come up from the stump of Jessey; from his roots a branch will bear fruit...(4) but with rigtheousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decsions for the poor...(10) in that day the root of Jessey will stand as a banner for the people, the nations will raly to him and his place of rest will be glorious."


Is, 42:6 (established as Messiah on previous page) "I will keep you and make you to be a covenat for the people and a light for the gentiles."

Compare: "(2)" He grew up before him like a tener shoot, and like a root out of dry ground....(12) "because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the trasngressors. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors."


We see that clearly throughout the book of Isiah, Israel is in no shape to be a redeemer, but itself must be redeemed. It cannot be a light to the nations without one from among it's people, Messiah, brining it back to God. In that process Messiah will be a light to the Gentiles, and the covenant for the land. Chapter 11 sasy explicitly that Messiah (the Branch) will do do this, he will be the light to the gentiles. And that is just what we see happening in 53, the servant is marked by the same, or close epithet, Branch, shoot, and is redeeming many. In fact in 52 we see that he will draw the nations to himself. This chapter (53) fits everything it says about Messiah, his mission, and his function, it does not fit anything about Israel.


III. The functin of the Passage in the overall book (s) of Isaiah.



A. Dialectical pattern of the book


1) God condemns Israel for waywardness

2) God calls Israel back and encourages her to be faithful.

3) The Messiah as Intsurment of God's plan

punctuates the pattern of dialogue



B. Chapter 53 as Crucial pivot in God's plan


1) Servant takes the rap for the many and redeems


2) After 53 Israel is seen in the blessed Kingdom in peace and prosterity.


3) The Servant's work as redeemed Israel.

The editor/redactor has placed this passage in the central location. After all the interwoven messages of confonfation and comfort, punctuated by expecations of the Messiah as redeemer, the suffering servant takes the balme for transgressions, it punished on behalf of the people, and than we see the people livng in the blessings of God . The editor used this passage as a means to express the hope and promise that as a result of the Lord's work Israel would return to God and live in peace and abanundance. Although the edtor probably invisioned this as looking forward to the return form exile, the work of Messiah in accmplishing redeemption, it does not necessarily mean that it refurs to a chronological event in that day priror to return from exile. But it looks forward to an event that would transpire at some point in the futre.


C. Israel as redeemer of Itself and others doesn't fit the pivital function.

There is no sense of how Israel was redeemed. Without the work of the SS being that of Messiah the work is incomplete. Irael would go from being wayward and weak to suddenly being strong enough to serve as suffering redeemer with no sense of how it got there and the interwoven strands of Messianich promise for this function would just be loose ends that are never tired up.

Note: this view works even better if one is determined to see the final chapters as eschatological (end times, Messianich Kingdom).

[Metacrock]

well come on, let's take the Isaiah 53 debate here.

[WelshBoy]

Have you ever read any mythological works, Lord of The Rings for example?

In many cases a character will serendipitously fulfill all the criterion of an old prophecy - usually much simpler than the book of Isaiah of course, and often packaged into a handy and memorable poem.

It's easy to write a piece of fiction (NT) about a piece of fiction (OT). Christians labour needlessly to squeeze meaning out of the Bible, when there is in fact no God, and no proof of God.


Please don't take this post as a personal attack, I say this in a perfectly respectful spirit.


Regards

Luke

[Metacrock]

Have you ever read any mythological works, Lord of The Rings for example?

Lord of the Rings is not a mytholgoical work. I have read it btw.

In many cases a character will serendipitously fulfill all the criterion of an old prophecy - usually much simpler than the book of Isaiah of course, and often packaged into a handy and memorable poem.

It's easy to write a piece of fiction (NT) about a piece of fiction (OT). Christians labour needlessly to squeeze meaning out of the Bible, when there is in fact no God, and no proof of God.

there is no way they could control Jesus being crucified. The odds that he would be were pretty small, much more so tha he would be stoned. the Jews did not price hands and feet in the time of Isaiah. Three passage from different books give that prophesy and all of the written at a time when they were maningless in the current hebrew context.

they could not cotnorl Jesus being scrouged before his crucifiction. they could not control his beng put in a new grave, or numbered with transgressors.

they could have written those things after the fact except that you are assuming ther's no control on informatin flow and there was. there was tight control.

the appeal to Isaiah 53 began latter. It was not an easly connection the infant chruch made. It was only began to be used toward the end of the first cnetury, after Mark was written.

Please don't take this post as a personal attack, I say this in a perfectly respectful spirit.

no problem buddy, same here!

Regards

Luke

me too!

[WelshBoy]

Yes indeed, I wasn't disagreeing that the Bible SAYS those things. I was arguing as to whether they were TRUE. Thus, an OT prophecy can easily be 'fulfilled' by a guy who never actually existed. You can make up all those things about him being counted amongst the sinners etc. to fulfill the prophecy.

My example was from mythologies (which I agree LOTR isn't, apart from possibly being a synthesised mythology) where the entire thing is fictional. If Jesus had indeed fulfilled all those prophecies which had ACTUALLY been given in visions hundreds of years before, that would be something worth writing home about. What I'm countering is that they're not actually true.

[Goat]

Can we demonstrate that the suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is Jesus?

(1) we can demosntrate that he is the Messiah and not just Israel

(2) we can demonstrate that it fits Jesus better than anyone else.


by saying ss is not Isreael I am not excluding the possiblity that since Messiah comes out of Israel that it is both Isreal and an idnivudal person called "Messiah."



I. close reading of chatper will follow.



II. Messiah Will be Light to the Gentiles


A. Israel's Original Mission.


B. Israel cannot accomplish its mission without Messiah.


Messiah is contrasted with wayward Israel in several places Isaiah. Is 50:1-3 "Where is your mother's cirtificate of divorce withwhich I sent her away? OR to which of my creditors did I sell you? Becasue of your sins you were sold, because of your transgressions your mother was sent away....do I lack the strength to rescue you?

To which Messiah responds "...I have not been rebellious, I have not drawn back..." (v5)


1) Messiah to be covenant for Israel

"will keep you," God tells the Messiah "and will make you to be a covenant for the land." (Is 49:8-


2) Messiah to bring Israel back to God


Is 49:5

And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)

C. Messiah to bring Israel back AND be light to Gentiles.

49:6

He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."



D. What the Sevant does in 53 is exactly

what the book says Messiah will do.


1) Messaih emerges out of Israel

Is 43:10 "You are My witnesses," declares the Lord, "And My servant whom I have chosen, In order that you may know and believe Me, And understand that I am He. Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.

"My witnesses" is plural, "My servant" is signular. The servant is part of the witnesses, coming out of Israel, produced by the line of David. Edersheim documents that Rabbical authorites recognize this verse as pertianing to Messiah.



2) Messiah rejected

Is. 50:6 "I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard, I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting..." And we see a rejected servant in 53, a "man of sarrows accounted with greif." This is one who "was despised and rejected."


3) Messiah accomplishes his task

Is 41:4


"here is my servant whom I uphold, my chosen one in whom I delight, I will put my Spirit on him and he will bring jutsice to the nations." Or chater 11: 1 which is clearly marked out as the Messiah: "A shoot will come up from the stump of Jessey; from his roots a branch will bear fruit...(4) but with rigtheousness he will judge the needy, with justice he will give decsions for the poor...(10) in that day the root of Jessey will stand as a banner for the people, the nations will raly to him and his place of rest will be glorious."


Is, 42:6 (established as Messiah on previous page) "I will keep you and make you to be a covenat for the people and a light for the gentiles."

Compare: "(2)" He grew up before him like a tener shoot, and like a root out of dry ground....(12) "because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the trasngressors. For he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors."


We see that clearly throughout the book of Isiah, Israel is in no shape to be a redeemer, but itself must be redeemed. It cannot be a light to the nations without one from among it's people, Messiah, brining it back to God. In that process Messiah will be a light to the Gentiles, and the covenant for the land. Chapter 11 sasy explicitly that Messiah (the Branch) will do do this, he will be the light to the gentiles. And that is just what we see happening in 53, the servant is marked by the same, or close epithet, Branch, shoot, and is redeeming many. In fact in 52 we see that he will draw the nations to himself. This chapter (53) fits everything it says about Messiah, his mission, and his function, it does not fit anything about Israel.


III. The functin of the Passage in the overall book (s) of Isaiah.



A. Dialectical pattern of the book


1) God condemns Israel for waywardness

2) God calls Israel back and encourages her to be faithful.

3) The Messiah as Intsurment of God's plan

punctuates the pattern of dialogue



B. Chapter 53 as Crucial pivot in God's plan


1) Servant takes the rap for the many and redeems


2) After 53 Israel is seen in the blessed Kingdom in peace and prosterity.


3) The Servant's work as redeemed Israel.

The editor/redactor has placed this passage in the central location. After all the interwoven messages of confonfation and comfort, punctuated by expecations of the Messiah as redeemer, the suffering servant takes the balme for transgressions, it punished on behalf of the people, and than we see the people livng in the blessings of God . The editor used this passage as a means to express the hope and promise that as a result of the Lord's work Israel would return to God and live in peace and abanundance. Although the edtor probably invisioned this as looking forward to the return form exile, the work of Messiah in accmplishing redeemption, it does not necessarily mean that it refurs to a chronological event in that day priror to return from exile. But it looks forward to an event that would transpire at some point in the futre.


C. Israel as redeemer of Itself and others doesn't fit the pivital function.

There is no sense of how Israel was redeemed. Without the work of the SS being that of Messiah the work is incomplete. Irael would go from being wayward and weak to suddenly being strong enough to serve as suffering redeemer with no sense of how it got there and the interwoven strands of Messianich promise for this function would just be loose ends that are never tired up.

Note: this view works even better if one is determined to see the final chapters as eschatological (end times, Messianich Kingdom).

Just for grins, let us just take one of the claims one at a time first.

How about starting with Isaiah 50:1-3. You seem to be truncating the context of Isaiah here, (well, no suprise.-). One thing that I should remind you of is that the
chapters and passages are arbitrary numbers added a thousand years later, and Isaiah was meant to be read as a whole.

So, in just a few passages before Isaiah 50:1-3, we do have an idenficaation of who the servant is. Let's look at Isaiah 49:3

49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

So, we can see that Isaiah has identified the servent as the nation of Israel. If you read the rest of Isaiah 49, you can see the same kind of allegory used in Isaiah 50
about the servent is used in Isaiah 49.

That eliminates your arguement about servent in Isaiah 50 (the entire chapter) being the messiah. It also eliminates your claim about Isaiah 49:6 being the messiah too.

Through out the entire 4th Servant Song, Isaiah repeatedly identifies the servant as Israel.

[Easyrider]

So, in just a few passages before Isaiah 50:1-3, we do have an idenficaation of who the servant is. Let's look at Isaiah 49:3

49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

So, we can see that Isaiah has identified the servent as the nation of Israel. If you read the rest of Isaiah 49, you can see the same kind of allegory used in Isaiah 50
about the servent is used in Isaiah 49.

That eliminates your arguement about servent in Isaiah 50 (the entire chapter) being the messiah. It also eliminates your claim about Isaiah 49:6 being the messiah too.

Through out the entire 4th Servant Song, Isaiah repeatedly identifies the servant as Israel.

There's serious problems with your extrapolating that to Isaiah 53.

First:

Israel does not even fit the description of the Servant in Isaiah 53:

The servant of Isaiah 53 is an innocent and guiltless sufferer. Israel is never described as sinless. Isaiah 1:4 says of the nation: "Alas sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity. A brood of evildoers, children who are corrupters!" He then goes on in the same chapter to characterize Judah as Sodom, Jerusalem as a harlot, and the people as those whose hands are stained with blood (verses 10, 15, and 21). What a far cry from the innocent and guiltless sufferer of Isaiah 53 who had "done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth!"

When did Israel suffer and not open her mouth (v. 7)? Are you suggesting that Jews have never complained about their oppression? That doesn't match history either.

When was Israel cut off from the land of the living (v.8)?

When was Israel assigned a grave with the rich (v.8)?

When can we say that Israel did no violence (v.9)? Isaiah chapter 1, verse 15 states, "Your hands are full of blood." They also went on a violent tear under the leadership of Joshua, etc., etc.

When did Israel bear your iniquities (v.11)? Specify the time of such an event. How does the Jewish nation bear your iniquities?

Now, heres what the ancient Jewish Rabbis said concerning Isaish 53:

Rabbi Moses Alschech(1508-1600) says:
"Our Rabbis with one voice accept and affirm the opinion that the prophet is speaking of the Messiah, and we shall ourselves also adhere to the same view."

Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)

Midrash Ruth Rabbah: "Another explanation (of Ruth ii.14): -- He is speaking of king Messiah; Come hither,' draw near to the throne; and eat of the bread,' that is, the bread of the kingdom; and dip thy morsel in the vinegar,' this refers to his chastisements, as it is said, But he was wounded for our transgressions, bruised for our iniquities'"
Targum Jonathan: "Behold my servant Messiah shall prosper; he shall be high and increase and be exceedingly strong..."

Zohar: "He was wounded for our transgressions,' etc....There is in the Garden of Eden a palace called the Palace of the Sons of Sickness; this palace the Messiah then enters, and summons every sickness, every pain, and every chastisement of Israel; they all come and rest upon him. And were it not that he had thus lightened them off Israel and taken them upon himself, there had been no man able to bear Israel's chastisements for the transgression of the law: and this is that which is written, Surely our sicknesses he hath carried.'"

Rabbi Moses Maimonides: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived." (From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)

Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)

Additional Rabbinic quotes in the following link:

http://www.hearnow.org/isa_com.html

Second:

Before Isaiah 49 you have the servant of Isaiah 42. But there are serious problems with Isaiah 42 being the "servant," i.e.

In Isaiah 42, the prophet actually introduces two servants. Isaiah 42:6-7 describes an individual who is a "light of the Gentiles," and who opens the eyes of the blind. Meanwhile, Isaiah 42:18-20 describes a 'blinded servant' who sees many things yet does not understand. The Scriptures showing the contrast and distinction between God's two servants follow:

The servant that gives light:

 Isaiah 42:6-7 "I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; (7) To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

The blinded servant:

 Isaiah 42:18-20 "Hear, ye deaf; and look, ye blind, that ye may see. (19) Who is blind, but my servant? or deaf, as my messenger that I sent? who is blind as he that is perfect, and blind as the LORD'S servant? (20) Seeing many things, but thou observest not; opening the ears, but he heareth not."

These two passages cannot possibly refer to the same servant. After all, how can a blinded servant who does not understand be a light? If an individual did not understand, would he or she be qualified to teach others? If someone walked in darkness, would they have the ability to lead the way? Of course not!

Isaiah identifies these two servants in the previous chapters in his writings. Isaiah 41:8 refers to Israel as one of God's servants. According to Isaiah 6:9-10, Israel is the blinded servant whose knowledge and understanding has been taken away by the LORD Himself. Isaiah 29:13-14 explains that the reason why Almighty God took away the knowledge and understanding from the children of Israel was because of their continued rebellion in their sin and their removal of their hearts from Him.

The applicable Scriptures follow:

 Isaiah 41:8 "But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend."

 Isaiah 6:9-10 "And he said, Go, and tell this people, Hear ye indeed, but understand not; and see ye indeed, but perceive not. (10) Make the heart of this people fat, and make their ears heavy, and shut their eyes; lest they see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and convert, and be healed."

 Isaiah 29:13-14 "Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men: (14) Therefore, behold, I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder: for the wisdom of their wise men shall perish, and the understanding of their prudent men shall be hid."

After viewing these passages, it is clear that Israel is the blinded servant described in Isaiah 42:18-20.

As previously mentioned, Isaiah 42 describes another servant of God. Zechariah 3:8 testifies that the BRANCH, the Messiah, is God's servant. In contrast to Israel, Isaiah also reveals that the Messiah, called "a rod out of the stem of Jesse," possesses the spirit of wisdom, understanding and knowledge. Obviously, He is the most logical and qualified "light of the Gentiles." The applicable Scriptures follow:

 Zechariah 3:8 "Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the BRANCH."

 Isaiah 11:1-2 "And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots: (2) And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD."

After viewing these passages, it is clear that Isaiah discloses two servants in his first Servant Song. However, only the Messiah is the qualified light of the Gentiles because it is He who has the spirit of wisdom, understanding and knowledge. Meanwhile, Israel is described as being in spiritual darkness. This is further established by the fact that Isaiah 11:10 refers to the root of Jesse, the Messiah, as an ensign of the people:

 "And in that day there shall be a root of Jesse, which shall stand for an ensign of the people; to it shall the Gentiles seek: and his rest shall be glorious."

Additionally, Isaiah 42:22 describes the blinded servant Israel as robbed and spoiled, snared in holes, and hid in prison houses. Meanwhile, Isaiah 42:7 reveals that the Messiah, the light of the Gentiles, as the one bringing out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house:

 Isaiah 42:22 (Regarding Israel) "But this is a people robbed and spoiled; they are all of them snared in holes, and they are hid in prison houses: they are for a prey, and none delivereth; for a spoil, and none saith, Restore."

 Isaiah 42:7 (Regarding the Messiah) "To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house."

The only possible conclusion that can be made by viewing these verses is the following: In Isaiah's first Servant Song, the prophet Isaiah refers to two servants, the Messiah and Israel.

http://www.kingmessiahproject.com/rrj_f ... _song.html

So be very careful with your extrapolations. Things change suddenly in Isaiah and you need to be up to speed on these issues.

[Metacrock]

Yes indeed, I wasn't disagreeing that the Bible SAYS those things. I was arguing as to whether they were TRUE. Thus, an OT prophecy can easily be 'fulfilled' by a guy who never actually existed. You can make up all those things about him being counted amongst the sinners etc. to fulfill the prophecy.

Jesus exisetd. that is proven fact. It is demonstrable and thsoe who wish to pretend otherwise do out such deep hatred that they can't even face facts of hsitory.

your argument is totlaly illogical. If they wrote the Jesus story to fulfill Isaiah 53 why didn't they use Isaiah 53 in the begining? the Jesus story was ste in storne and no other version was ever made from teh very beginnig of Christaintiy. it was already set in stone when Paul began his ministry in the late 40s. So why didn't the use Isaiah 53 then? instead they didnt' use it unitl the next century.

My example was from mythologies (which I agree LOTR isn't, apart from possibly being a synthesised mythology) where the entire thing is fictional. If Jesus had indeed fulfilled all those prophecies which had ACTUALLY been given in visions hundreds of years before, that would be something worth writing home about. What I'm countering is that they're not actually true.

well he did. the passage in Zak 4 where it says Messiah's name will be Jesus has never been an argument. i've never seen anyone use it. So it can't be taht they named him jesus to fulfil that verse becasue then they never used it. yet there it is. it clear as day.

[Metacrock]

Just for grins, let us just take one of the claims one at a time first.

How about starting with Isaiah 50:1-3. You seem to be truncating the context of Isaiah here, (well, no suprise.-). One thing that I should remind you of is that the
chapters and passages are arbitrary numbers added a thousand years later, and Isaiah was meant to be read as a whole.

gee really! wow1 live and learn!!!

So, in just a few passages before Isaiah 50:1-3, we do have an idenficaation of who the servant is. Let's look at Isaiah 49:3

49:3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.

So, we can see that Isaiah has identified the servent as the nation of Israel. If you read the rest of Isaiah 49, you can see the same kind of allegory used in Isaiah 50
about the servent is used in Isaiah 49.

as has been ponited about about 63 times now. many pepole are called "servant" in that book. why single out verse and say "here's where he dientifies who the servant is>" when he doesn't say "thsi is The servant and the only one I will ever refur to by that title??? no he doesnt' say that, he says Isreale his servant, he also says Isaiash his servant, David his servant, messiah his servant, why not use one of those?

That eliminates your arguement about servent in Isaiah 50 (the entire chapter) being the messiah. It also eliminates your claim about Isaiah 49:6 being the messiah too.

really? why? because he uses the term in conjusnction with Isreal? hardly, why not say

"here is where who the servent is is expained:"

Gentiles Isa 14:2 And the peoples will take them along and bring them to their place, and the house of Israel will possess them as an inheritance in the land of the Lord as male servant s and fe male servant s; and they will take their captors captive, and will rule over their oppressors.

so you see gentiels are the servant.

or

Isaiah servant of God Isa 20:3 And the Lord said, "Even as My servant Isaiah has gone naked and barefoot three years as a sign and token against Egypt and Cush,

So Isaiah is the servant.


but here is where the difference is expailned.


David Baron, The Servant of Jehovah: The Sufferings Of the Messiah and the Glory that Should Follow]


http://www.amfi.org/ABOUTWHOM.htm

AMF International

Isaiah 53 ABout Whom Does it Speak?

by David R. Brewer


"There is a very definite contrast between the beliefs and opinions that the rabbis held about the Messiah in the time period of 450 B.C.E.-400 C.E. and between the opinions that the modern rabbis hold about the Messiah. There is quite a difference between the verses that ancient rabbis considered to be Messianic and the ones that modern rabbis consider to be Messianic. It is very typical for modern rabbis to consider non-Messianic the same passages that ancient rabbis considered Messianic. Dr. Alfred Edersheim compiled a list of 456 passages in the OT that are applied by the most ancient writings to either the Messiah or to Messianic times. During the time that the ancient rabbis were writing the Talmud, most of the rabbis believed that the 53rd chapter of Isaiah was referring to the Messiah. Actually it was not until about the 11th century C.E. that other views were proffered. During this time period Rashi (Rabbi Solomon Yizchaki, 1040-1105) originated the view that the servant of the LORD was the nation of Israel. Not only did many of Rashi's contemporaries not agree with his view of Isaiah 53, but there were rabbis centuries after Rashi who continued to disagree with him. Interestingly enough, Rashi was not consistent with his own view of the identity of "the Servant of the Lord". Rashi did state that "eved adonai" was the nation of Israel in his Biblical exposition of the 53rd chapter of Isaiah, but in his Talmudic commentary of this same chapter he contradicted himself by writing that "eved adonai" refers to the Messiah.

The Prophet Isaiah's use of the term "eved" in his book The term "servant" is quite often used in the book of Isaiah as a collective or generic term which many times Isaiah used to refer to "Israel". Other times Isaiah uses the term "servant" to refer to the righteous remnant within the nation of Israel. We see this in Isaiah 41:8-9; 42:18-19; 43:10; 44:1-2, 21; 45:4; 48:20; and in 49:3. We also see the same thing in other prophetical books &endash; see Jer. 30:10; 46:27-28; Ezek. 28:25; 37:25 (cf. Psalm 136:22). The plural word "servants" in the book of Isaiah only comes after Isaiah 53 &endash; see 54:17; 56:6; 63:17; 65:8-9, 13, 15; and 66:14. In fact after Isaiah 53, the singular for "servant" is not used again but there are 11 references to "his servants", "my servants", or "the servants of the LORD".

It is vital to maintain a clear distinction between "servant" referring to the nation of Israel and "servant" referring to an individual who has a multi-faceted ministry to the nation of Israel (see Isaiah 42:1-7; 49:1-9; and 50:4-10). If one sits down and reads all of the verses mentioned above where Isaiah uses the term "servant" and reads the contexts of each verse, it is relatively easy to understand when Isaiah is referring to the nation of Israel. Isaiah makes it abundantly clear in the context either by rebuking Israel for her sin, by linking the terms "Jacob", "son of Abraham", and "Jeshurun" to "servant", or by linking the return from the Babylonian Captivity to "servant".

Through out the entire 4th Servant Song, Isaiah repeatedly identifies the servant as Israel.

but he also repreatedly identfies the Messiah as servant (in the Targum they say in certain passages 'this is not Isreal but the messiah") and he idneities the prhopet Isaiah himself, and David and others.


why not say that the true definition is here were the cleary distinguishes Isreael from Messiah and from the servant who will redeem Israel:



is 49: 5-6


And now says the Lord, who formed Me from the womb to be His Servant, To bring Jacob back to Him, in order that Israel might be gathered to Him (For I am honored in the sight of the Lord, And My God is My strength)
Messiah 49:6 He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."




did you read that? do you not see that? It celatry says this figure to whom he's taling is seperate from israel because he will redeem Israel he will be a light to teh gentiel (just like Jesus) and he is the servant! that's exactly what it says!!!



you know you are not asnwering my arguments and you are not extending your own. you just keep reapeating the same one's over and over agian.

[Metacrock]

Did I take the passage in 50 out of conext? Let's start back at 49


c) 49:6


He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

The context clearly indicates it is the Messiah addressed. He is to redeem Israel and Jacob, and all the world. This is not Israel but the Messiah. The larger context of the chapter indicates an address to Israel, "you are my servant Israel in whom I will disply my splinder." But there is a distinction.The passage begins "before I was born the Lord called me" Israel is speaking. Israel personified goes to to procliam that he was unfaithful: "but I said 'I have labored to no purpose...yet what is due me is the Lord's hand and my reward is with God." The Servant Israel ceases dialogue for the moment at this point. Israel is no longer talking.

It goes on (v5)"and now the Lord says...he who formed me in the womb to bring Jacob back to him and gathered Israel to himself..." What's going on here? The Lord says this but is not speaking as the Lord, but as the servant, and the servant is not Israel, but is to redeem Israel. The servant than goes on to quote the Lord speaking to him and that is the quote above."It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved ones of Israel:

So clearly the Messiah is speaking at this point and the Messiah is the servant redeemer. Why Messiah and not Isaiah? Of 49:8 Edersheim writes "there is a remarkable in Yalkut on the passage, to the effect that the Messiah suffers in every age for the sins of that generation but aht god in the day of redemption will repair it all (Yalk ii p. 52b). (Ibid.) Moreover the words of freedom in 49:9 are attributed to Messiah."Is 49:9 is quoted as the words of the Messiah in Yalfut (vol. ii-p53b). We know this servant is Israel, he will do what Messiah is given to do.



2) Messiah as servant leading up to 53



a) 50: 10 possibility is prophet or Messiah


This verse at first glance appears to be the prophet or even Israel speaking. But let's look again. "Who is among you that fears the Lord, That obeys the voice of His servant, That walks in darkness and has no light? Let him trust in the name of the Lord and rely on his God"

Again the chapter starts out with servant Israel. By now we should see a patter here, because once again it shifts gears to someone else.. Sevant Israel has been unfaithful. "This is what the Lord says....'because of your sins you were sold...' And the Lord continues to speak in this vein, that Israel should trust him becaue he is powerful enough to deliver them from anything.

Then in v4 another voice says "the sorvign Lord has given me an instructed tounge, to know the word that sustains the weary..." This sounds as though it could be Isaiah, but it is not Israel for this voice is faithful "...I have not been rebellious, I have not drawn back, I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheacks to those who pulled out my beard..." (why does that sound familiar?) "I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting, because the soverign Lord helps me, I will not be disgraced"

The next verse is 50: 10 quoted above. Wheather this is Isaiah or the Messiah it is still not Israel. This is curical because it means that there is a dialectical reationship going on here. There is a jumping back and forth form Israel as the Servant to Messiah (and perhaps at times others such as Isiah).And we see this criss corss throguhout the book.



b) 52: 13


Behold, My servant will prosper, He will be high and lifted up, and greatly exalted.


Above I leave this one as a guess. But it must be the Messiah. In the interim between the last servant verse and this one, a lot is said. But by whom? Throughout chapter 51 the Prophet speaks the words of the Lord so interchangeably that it is impossible to tell who is talking most of the time, but the message is clear, God is the strenth of his people Israel if they will only trust in him and turn to him. v17 "Awake, Awake, rise up O Jersusalem you who have drunk from the hand of the Lord the cup of his wrath." Clearly, as throughout the book, and thoughout most of their history Israel is going astray and needs calling back. God comforts Israel "see I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger" (v22).

It continues on this way to Chapter 53. below is a table charting the flow of the dialogue.

starting with Chapter 50

50: 1-3 God scolds unfaithful Israel Starting with "Where is your mother's cirtificate of diverse...?"Do I lack the strength to resue you?"
50:4-11 the faithful servant contrasts with unfaithful Israel starting with "the Soverign Lord has given me an instructed tounge....I have not been rebellious I have not drawn back.
51:1-4 Prophet encourages Israel to follow and trust God. starting "listen to me, you who pursue righteousness and who seek the Lord; look to the rock..."
51:4-8 God speaks as an example of the prophet's message to Israel starts "LIsten tome my people,...
51:v9-11 Prophet evokes God "Awake, Awake,Clothe yourself with strength O arm of the Lord...Was it not you who dired up the sea...?"
51:12-16 God scolds Israel gently and offers comfort starts "I, even I am he who comforts you. Who are you that you fearmortal men...?"
51:17-22 rebukes Israel for their sin and ehorts them to turn to God "Awake, awke! Rise O Jerusalem, you who have sdrunk from the hnd of the Lord the cup of this wrath you hae drained to its dreggs the boglet that makes men stagger..."
51:22-23 God reiterates the message and offers encouragement, redeemption "See I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger...you will never drink again..."
52: 1-4 Prophet exhorts again Awake, awake, O Zion, clothe yourself with strength.Put on your garments of splendor, O Jerusalem...."
52:4-6 God reiterates "At first my people went down to Egypt to live....my people have been taken away for nothing and those who rule them mock...therefore my people will know my name.
52:7-12 the prophet speaks of the messenger (Elijah?) "How beuatiful on the mountins are the feet of those that bring good news....but you will not leave in hates or go in flight; fort he Lord of Israel will be your rear guard."
52:14-15 God boasts of his servant "see my servant will act wisely he will re braisedup and lifted up and highly ealted. Just as there many who were appalled at him--...for what they were not told they will see, and what they have not heard they will understand."


where is that out of context. tell me the real context if you thnk its' out of context?


the context of any passage is all the passages around it.