I have heard all the retohric, the Bible versus etc etc etc
What Im looking for is proof to the hypothesis of God. I would love to see tangible proof or if not at least one logical argument. So far I have not seen nor heard either.
Please note the words "Tangible" and "Logical". If wish to use quotes from the religious texts then please prove the vadility of the source. e.g. If you quote from the Bible book of Luke please provide proof Luke existed and was not completly stark raving mad.
Blessed is the mind too small for doubt for it is easily filled with faith.
Anyone got proof of God
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achilles12604
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Post #2
Please define "proof".
Also elaborate as to whom this "proof" would apply. I could say that the pattern of the sprinkler on the grass was "proof" that George Bush was God incarnet and I bet you I could get someone to accept this so define to whom this "proof" needs to apply.
With the second part in mind, let me remind you that if YOU are the individual whom the "proof" needs to convince, there may very well be no "proof" as most people are so sure of what they originally believe that convincing them on a factual level is almost impossible. For those of us who are open minded enough to accept an opposing argument and see its validity, there are additional problems to "proof" like, the degree to which it matches our preconceptions of the world around us, experiences in our own lives, our upbringings, relationships with other people, etc.
So please define "proof". Also to whom must my "proof" apply and under what conditions would my "proof" be valid?
Also elaborate as to whom this "proof" would apply. I could say that the pattern of the sprinkler on the grass was "proof" that George Bush was God incarnet and I bet you I could get someone to accept this so define to whom this "proof" needs to apply.
With the second part in mind, let me remind you that if YOU are the individual whom the "proof" needs to convince, there may very well be no "proof" as most people are so sure of what they originally believe that convincing them on a factual level is almost impossible. For those of us who are open minded enough to accept an opposing argument and see its validity, there are additional problems to "proof" like, the degree to which it matches our preconceptions of the world around us, experiences in our own lives, our upbringings, relationships with other people, etc.
So please define "proof". Also to whom must my "proof" apply and under what conditions would my "proof" be valid?
It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
Post #3
Sorry for butting in here:
Very valid questions achilles.
For proof I would say evidence that is observable by the senses, and also measurable by machines.
How about arranging all the symbols of the religions of the world in a vaccum and each of the adherents of the faiths praying to their God(s) to make their symbol levitate - so the Christians would ask God to levitate the cross (for example). It could be filmed, and the test conditions could be approved by a panel of as many scientists and religious adherents as you like. Of course we'd need technical repeats...
I would believe then. Of course as you've quite rightly pointed out, there would be a conspiracy theory doing the rounds within milliseconds!
Very valid questions achilles.
For proof I would say evidence that is observable by the senses, and also measurable by machines.
How about arranging all the symbols of the religions of the world in a vaccum and each of the adherents of the faiths praying to their God(s) to make their symbol levitate - so the Christians would ask God to levitate the cross (for example). It could be filmed, and the test conditions could be approved by a panel of as many scientists and religious adherents as you like. Of course we'd need technical repeats...
I would believe then. Of course as you've quite rightly pointed out, there would be a conspiracy theory doing the rounds within milliseconds!
To the believer, no proof is necessary; to the skeptic, no proof is enough.
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achilles12604
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Post #4
Good idea. Except then I still have an out as the bible says not to test him. So even if it failed I could still claim victory!WelshBoy wrote:Sorry for butting in here:
Very valid questions achilles.
For proof I would say evidence that is observable by the senses, and also measurable by machines.
How about arranging all the symbols of the religions of the world in a vaccum and each of the adherents of the faiths praying to their God(s) to make their symbol levitate - so the Christians would ask God to levitate the cross (for example). It could be filmed, and the test conditions could be approved by a panel of as many scientists and religious adherents as you like. Of course we'd need technical repeats...
I would believe then. Of course as you've quite rightly pointed out, there would be a conspiracy theory doing the rounds within milliseconds!
:2gun: YEE HAW!It is a first class human tragedy that people of the earth who claim to believe in the message of Jesus, whom they describe as the Prince of Peace, show little of that belief in actual practice.
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Seekthetruthout
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Post #6
This is the first thread i have read on these forums. Post #2 by achilles12604 encouraged me to register and bookmark this forum. Good thinking and questions 
It sounds as if there will truly be some great debating and discussing here, which i have sought for many a year. I have missed having logical and intelligent chat re Faith and lack of it, over the last few years; from the sounds of it i can find some via this forum.
Cheers
and back on topic.. i can offer to proof of God as your question seeks. I have not met anyone who can. Likewise, Jesus never gave proof of God either.
I would need to dwell on this thought longer, but as time is pressed right now.. i dont know if it it humanly possible to see or know proof of God, even if it did exist.
We work on a physical level.
God, if God exists, would transcend this level merely by the fact of being God.
This would require God to reveal proof to us that is comprehendable in human terms. If we saw this 'proof' more than likely we would have an explaination for it which in turn would render its 'proof' useless.
Hmm heh, i must away for now, but here's to further discussion. Cheers.
It sounds as if there will truly be some great debating and discussing here, which i have sought for many a year. I have missed having logical and intelligent chat re Faith and lack of it, over the last few years; from the sounds of it i can find some via this forum.
Cheers
and back on topic.. i can offer to proof of God as your question seeks. I have not met anyone who can. Likewise, Jesus never gave proof of God either.
I would need to dwell on this thought longer, but as time is pressed right now.. i dont know if it it humanly possible to see or know proof of God, even if it did exist.
We work on a physical level.
God, if God exists, would transcend this level merely by the fact of being God.
This would require God to reveal proof to us that is comprehendable in human terms. If we saw this 'proof' more than likely we would have an explaination for it which in turn would render its 'proof' useless.
Hmm heh, i must away for now, but here's to further discussion. Cheers.
"When truth is replaced with silence, the silence is a lie."
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Cogitoergosum
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Post #7
God being GOD, should have no problem providing us with proof of his existence within our capacities to understand and believe without doubt, unless he is incompetent and unable to do so. Or most likely does not exist except in our primitive minds that cannot yet grasp the universe around us.Seekthetruthout wrote:This is the first thread i have read on these forums. Post #2 by achilles12604 encouraged me to register and bookmark this forum. Good thinking and questions
It sounds as if there will truly be some great debating and discussing here, which i have sought for many a year. I have missed having logical and intelligent chat re Faith and lack of it, over the last few years; from the sounds of it i can find some via this forum.
Cheers
and back on topic.. i can offer to proof of God as your question seeks. I have not met anyone who can. Likewise, Jesus never gave proof of God either.
I would need to dwell on this thought longer, but as time is pressed right now.. i dont know if it it humanly possible to see or know proof of God, even if it did exist.
We work on a physical level.
God, if God exists, would transcend this level merely by the fact of being God.
This would require God to reveal proof to us that is comprehendable in human terms. If we saw this 'proof' more than likely we would have an explaination for it which in turn would render its 'proof' useless.
Hmm heh, i must away for now, but here's to further discussion. Cheers.
Beati paupere spiritu
Post #8
Welcome seekthetruthout!
Cogi:
This is always the sticking point with this debate. Theists say you can't 'test' God, and I say "Then let God test us". By that I mean let him show us he exists ALL THE TIME, it would hardly be a drain on his infinite resources. Achilles argues that it would violate our free-will, but from my POV it would no more violate our POV than a doctor telling us we have cancer. We can still choose to believe the doctor or not. The other contention is that marvellous biblical get-out-clause as achilles has mentioned earlier with regards to us not being allowed to test God.
Nevertheless, Gideon did so.
Cogi:
This is always the sticking point with this debate. Theists say you can't 'test' God, and I say "Then let God test us". By that I mean let him show us he exists ALL THE TIME, it would hardly be a drain on his infinite resources. Achilles argues that it would violate our free-will, but from my POV it would no more violate our POV than a doctor telling us we have cancer. We can still choose to believe the doctor or not. The other contention is that marvellous biblical get-out-clause as achilles has mentioned earlier with regards to us not being allowed to test God.
Nevertheless, Gideon did so.
To the believer, no proof is necessary; to the skeptic, no proof is enough.
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otseng
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Post #9
As someone once said, proof is only for mathematics and alcohol. There's no way to prove that God exists. But, for "at least one logical argument", that's a reasonable request.
You might want to check out a thread I'm currently engaged in: Nature's Destiny - Michael Denton. I believe it makes a very strong case for the existence of a god based on the scientific evidence.
You might want to check out a thread I'm currently engaged in: Nature's Destiny - Michael Denton. I believe it makes a very strong case for the existence of a god based on the scientific evidence.
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Cogitoergosum
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Post #10
As someone once said... is not worth anything. I can quote my grandpa saying as someone once said...otseng wrote:As someone once said, proof is only for mathematics and alcohol. There's no way to prove that God exists. But, for "at least one logical argument", that's a reasonable request.
You might want to check out a thread I'm currently engaged in: Nature's Destiny - Michael Denton. I believe it makes a very strong case for the existence of a god based on the scientific evidence.
Second that thread you link here is 9 pages long discussing a book i have not read, so sorry cannot participate there. If you have something specific you would like us to debate please point to it.
Beati paupere spiritu
