Women and Authority

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PROSECUTOR
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Women and Authority

Post #1

Post by PROSECUTOR »

As a new member I would like to participate in a discussion of whether the Bible authorizes women to be in positions of authority over men in any area of life. It is my strong conviction that women are forbidden to rule over men in the home, in religion, in the work place, in government,
in social settings or any area of life. This is based of God's creation and thus is not governed by culture or present day opinions. What I mean by this is that no matter where this discussion leads, it will always be forced to return to creation. We cannot ignore the facts: (1) Man was created before the woman. (2) Woman was created from man. (3) Man was not made for woman but the woman for the man. (4) Man is to rule over the woman not the other way around. Four rules that must be followed for this discussion to have any merit are these: (1) We must agree on a common standard. I believe that standard to be the Bible. (2) We must agree on basic rules of interpretation the chief one being common sense. (3) We must allow words to have their normal meanings unless the context demands different. (4) We must abide by rules of grammer, in this discussion, those rules that govern our English language, unless the context demands differently.
Prosecutor :-k

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palmera
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Post #21

Post by palmera »

Nevertheless, just in case there are any who cannot see the obvious, the Bible does spell this out very uncompromisingly. Anyone claiming to be Christian who suggests that women can be leaders of a church is obviously trying to lead that whole church into temptation. The worldly churches do not bat an eyelid, of course, so used are they to being taken for a ride.
Tilia, you may find it interesting that many early Christian churches were led by women... man, I guess those early, original Christians had it all wrong. Constantinian Christianity is perhaps the earliest, and certainly the most prevalent source of discrimination against women in the Church. It is no coincidence that when the Bible was put together... by men... that gospels referencing women in power were not included. Gee, I wonder why.

This thread is interesting, though I feel like we've all taken one huge step back; but then again, at least the issue is up for debate these days.
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Post #22

Post by Tilia »

palmera wrote:
many early Christian churches were led by women.
Please provide evidence for this.

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palmera
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Post #23

Post by palmera »

Quote:
many early Christian churches were led by women.

Please provide evidence for this.

At the Harvard Divinity School, Francois Bavon (Frothingham Professor of History of Religions) as documented this through a fourth century manuscript describing the acts of the apostle Philip. The texts describes females functioning as priestesses in some early Christian Churches.

Also, some of the apocryphal gospels (Philip, Mary for example) describe this as well.

There are many sources which you can actually google search which describe early Christian communities and churches democratically led by both women and men.

One book which also discusses this is by Fran Craddock, Martha Faw, Nancy Heimer., called In the Fullness of Time: A History of Women in the Christian Church

Also of note, a female, Philoumene, led a Roman theological school in the second century.

Further, Romans 16:1 mentions Pheobe as a deacon in the church at Cenchrea. More importantly, Pheobe is the only (male or female) mentioned by name as deacon of a church in the Bible.

Also of note, Paul refers to Euodia, Priscilla, Junia and Syntyche as co-workers, and Junia as esteemed among the apostles.

Also, early Christian gnostic texts refereed to females in their capacity as priestesses, prophets, and missionaries, noting their leading roles in baptism, eucharist, and even exorcisms.

Also from Harvard, Karen L. King, a professor of New Testament Studies and History of Ancient Christianity cites the roles of women as leaders in the early churches. One piece which discusses this is "Women in Ancient Christianity: The New Discoveries."

Most writings which ban women from holding leadership roles come from five centuries of church orders written and promoted by male political and religious leaders.

This is just the tip of the iceberg.
Men at ease have contempt for misfortune
as the fate of those whose feet are slipping.

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Scrotum
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Post #24

Post by Scrotum »

Was not Jesus himself under a woman's authority from birth?? Did Mary not tell him to sweep the floor and feed the livestock?
Really? I never read this, anywhere. Where did you get it from? What book? Whom wrote it? People always told me that their was no writing about Jesus life, and during my life, i never ran across it....

Tell me about it please.
I am happy to set forth the proofs as to why women cannot be in positions of authority over men in any area,...
I think he is trying to say that Woman are inferior, which they are, but it become something like "woman can not be in authority", which is wrong. They can, they do, they do it bad, yes, but they can.

The truth is, I as a man have nothing to gain from a woman mentally, as they are so much more limited then I am like a man. Sure, men are also assholes and idiots, but Woman are simply limited (it seems, perhaps they chose to be like that ,what do i know).


The only reason woman interest me is Sex. And thats it. Mentally, you can gain nothing from them, they are to weak minded and ignorant. Like the stupidest (is that a word?) of men. There are some woman whom manage to come up to the same level as an intelligent man, granted, and thats good indeed. But why deny the Truth?

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palmera
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Post #25

Post by palmera »

The only reason woman interest me is Sex. And thats it. Mentally, you can gain nothing from them, they are to weak minded and ignorant. Like the stupidest (is that a word?) of men. There are some woman whom manage to come up to the same level as an intelligent man, granted, and thats good indeed. But why deny the Truth?
A prime example of male vocabulary, grammar, and punctuation. How ironic!!!!! Especially coming from one who names himself after his genital region... very superior.

In the future may we please refrain from sexism in this forum. It's unbecoming, ignorant, and childish.

I really hope this is a joke. If it is, it's clever, but not funny.
Last edited by palmera on Thu Oct 20, 2005 5:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Men at ease have contempt for misfortune
as the fate of those whose feet are slipping.

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Chimp
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Post #26

Post by Chimp »

Scrot...

...was gonna rip you a new one...but I'll keep it civil. Your remarks are
neither contributory to the debate, nor acceptable in the context of a
civil debate.

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Post #27

Post by Tilia »

palmera wrote:
At the Harvard Divinity School, Francois Bavon (Frothingham Professor of History of Religions) as documented this through a fourth century manuscript describing the acts of the apostle Philip.

Even a contemporary account would not necessarily be reliable, but I for one would not spend any research time on anything much later. This is not evidence.
The texts describes females functioning as priestesses in some early Christian Churches.

There are not even priests in Christianity. This cannot be evidence.
Also, some of the apocryphal gospels (Philip, Mary for example) describe this as well.
They are not evidence. One can find apocryphal tales about almost anything to do with Christianity within two hundred years of the resurrection. Real Christianity was and indeed remains a very powerful message that opposes wicked people, and it is naive to suppose that the wicked will not traduce it whenever and wherever it is discussed, unless they are barred from debate on the grounds of their behaviour.
There are many sources which you can actually google search which describe early Christian communities and churches democratically led by both women and men.
That is palpable nonsense. The most extraordinary fact in all history (imv) is that Christianity's own record ceases for a very long time at the end of Luke's Acts. There is nothing at all, bar a single letter reputed to come from Clement of Rome, and perhaps the Didache, that is accounted as genuinely Christian by any supposedly Christian body for at least forty years after that. There is no major work that can be identified as being in agreement with the Tanach and the work of the apostles until Wycliffe, many centuries after Luke.
Also of note, a female, Philoumene, led a Roman theological school in the second century.
One must note that all the letter writers of the NT but James warned of false teachers already in the church as they wrote. This is therefore not evidence.
Further, Romans 16:1 mentions Pheobe as a deacon in the church at Cenchrea.
Helpers (deacons) were not permitted to teach men, as far as we know, and Paul, who mentioned Phoebe, would not have approved any woman who taught men.
Also of note, Paul refers to Euodia, Priscilla, Junia and Syntyche as co-workers,
That does not make them teachers.
and Junia as esteemed among the apostles.
Junias must have been a man, as Paul would not have described a female apostle as esteemed.
Also, early Christian gnostic texts
That's a contradiction in terms.
Also from Harvard, Karen L. King, a professor of New Testament Studies and History of Ancient Christianity cites the roles of women as leaders in the early churches.
That is not possible. All the early female leadership that can be reasonably proved is in the Bible, and that is very firmly against teaching of men by women. One can very reasonably state that, if an organisation permits that practice, it cannot be Christian.

There are those, particularly today, who wish to weaken society by promoting women above men so that they can more easily manipulate it for their own ends. They are, imv, ultimately anti-social and destructive of society, and will therefore be resisted by those with the will and the courage to defend society. The last bastion that hinders them is of course the church, and they lie and mock to try to gain mastery over it.

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Master Coelacanth
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Post #28

Post by Master Coelacanth »

Excuse me, Tilia, you talk a lot about evidence, ask for evidence, but what evidence do you present to support this assertion?:
I don't think that any honest adult needs to read the Bible to realise that women are more prone to temptation than men, though

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Post #29

Post by Tilia »

Master Coelacanth wrote:Excuse me, Tilia, you talk a lot about evidence, ask for evidence, but what evidence do you present to support this assertion?:
I don't think that any honest adult needs to read the Bible to realise that women are more prone to temptation than men, though
If I type something, it is evidence of what I think. Typos permitting!

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micatala
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Post #30

Post by micatala »

Tilia wrote:There are not even priests in Christianity. This cannot be evidence.
Tilia wrote:Even a contemporary account would not necessarily be reliable, but I for one would not spend any research time on anything much later. This is not evidence.
TIlia wrote:That is palpable nonsense. The most extraordinary fact in all history (imv) is that Christianity's own record ceases for a very long time at the end of Luke's Acts. There is nothing at all, bar a single letter reputed to come from Clement of Rome, and perhaps the Didache, that is accounted as genuinely Christian by any supposedly Christian body for at least forty years after that. There is no major work that can be identified as being in agreement with the Tanach and the work of the apostles until Wycliffe, many centuries after Luke.
In my view, these are unsubstantiated opinions. Certainly there were people mentioned as priests in the OT and Jesus himself is mentioned as a priest in the NT. You might believe that none of these serve as unreliable evidence, but you haven't given us much reason to accept this opinion.

Yes, contemporary works are good to have and could be considered more reliable, but it does not mean that non-contemporary sources should be dismissed.

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