Saved by the Grace of God???

[Confused]

So, this has always perplexed me and I am hoping someone might actually be able to give me a clear and concise explanation. Often, we hear of events that lead to the death of one or more people, yet the survivors are quoted as saying things such as "It was only by the grace of God that I stand here today". Now, to me, this implies the person is somehow more important than those who died. Yet if we are all created equal, then no life is greater than another. Often serial killers murder 3+ people, but the last one gets away which leads to the arrest and conviction of the killer. The survivor, once again, attests to the grace of God being the reason they are alive to tell the story. How does this coincide with this God of the bible?

So for debate:
1) What is the grace of God? Is there some rational reason why some get it and some don't? What does it mean to be saved by the Grace of God?
2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

(Please, if you can't creatively answer this, don't use the generic "God works in mysterious ways".)

[bernee51]

I do not however believe it (unconditional love) is an impossibility. I don't feel my love for my children is conditional. I don't feel my love for my wife is conditional. In moments of deep meditation I have felt what to Buddhists is known as metta - an unconditional lovingkindness that is universal.

From my perspective, the only way I could recognize myself as "loving unconditionally" someone, was if I could imagine this person doing the most horrid and abominable thing my mind can conceive of (and I have a very fertile imagination ) and still be capable of loving this person. Of course, no one I know is likely to perform such actions, and probably no one you know as well, but don't you agree our "love" is conditioned even if by hypothetical extreme situations?

I think how love is expressed can suffer from conditions. I may love my wife unconditionally yet often actions which occur seem to not reflect that love. These actions are a result of conditions and are a response to a 'button pushing' that is grounded more in my early upbringing than in my relationship with my wife. The only way to defray these reactions is to be mindfully aware, to be in a position to observe these conditions as, if not before, they arise. Being mindfully aware can only result in a constant expression of lovingkindness.

[joer]

Howdy Alexia. Please to meet you.

alexiarose wrote:

If God has grace, He picks and chooses who He will bestow it on.
What does it mean to be saved by the grace of God? It means that serial killer who has broken all the commandments of God will keep living while his victims are dead. It means that rapist will live while loving mother will suffer. Apparently, Gods grace with salvation is fickle at best.

2) Does the God in the bible really offer grace? Or does He merely offer suffering in this life for eternal rewards in the next?

Well, lets see. Did God offer and Grace to the world when He flooded it drowning countless men, women, children, and babies?
When God was killing the first born of the Egyptians to punish them for not allowing His chosen people to leave, was He showing His grace?

I have a friend, Alexia, who addressed this problem today. I'll include what he said here. I like it because it reflects a new perspective that is coming upon many people. They are recognizing a new vision of God that is coming into realization. It's quite different than the old fundamentalist type of Crystallized dogmatic truth that contains the error of the OLD LAW that Jesus came to correct. And he didn't correct it by saying it wasn't TRUE. He corrected it by embracing the truth it contained and offering it forth to Humankind. The problem is like this example you gave here, people are reluctant to release the archaic OLD law and embrace the living spirit of truth as it exists in our hearts today and was poured upon the earth as Jesus said. Anyway alexia check out what Mr. Shakita said. He got it right.

When we view the Bible in a different light we are not as disturbed when there is a troubling passage. Isaiah makes the claim that God created evil. Yet, we know that in other passages God is said to be light, that there is no darkness at all in union with Him.

Jesus's view of the Hebrew scriptures was a pragmatic one. He did not view the Hebrew scriptures as the inerrant word of God. But he did see that there were some scriptures that had spiritual benefit. He chose to use what was useful and ignore those scriptures that did not accurately portray his Father.

You see that religious and spiritual thought have also gone through an evolution. What was one time viewed as the gospel truth is now viewed as a view of the ancients. For example there are some passages in Deutoronomy and Numbers that assert God's approval of mass murder. He instructed the Israelites that when they were to enter into a city or village that they were to destroy men. women and children. In some cases they were allegedly instructed by God to kill all the residents except for the virgins. The Israelite men could keep these women for themselves. If we stop to reason on this we see that theses passages reflect racial prejudices of the Israelites. It also authorizes mass murder or genocide. If this were true then it could be said that God creates evil. But this was the evolving view of God. He was viewed as a tribal God that jealously guarded his people and that would kill any group of people or nations that would dare get in his peoples way.

But what do we know about God as revealed through Jesus? That God is not a respecter of persons. He loves all of his children equally. He does not take sides in carnal warfare of his mortal children. He does not authorize genocide or mass murder. This was an evolving viewpoint. Even though God allowed this wrong view of Himself, amidst the rancor there were scriptures that had the ring of truth such as Lev 19:18 which tells us to love our neighbor as ourself. Jesus reiterated this point when he said that the two greatest commandments are that we love our Father with all of our soul, heart, mind and strength and that we love our neighbor as ourself. The Father that dwells within us would never approve of genocide.

So when we recognize that the written word is not inerrant then we are not disturbed at things written which contradict our knowledge of the Father. The Father that dwells within each and every one of us continues to refine our viewpoint. God does not create evil, man creates evil as a result of his choices that are in opposition to the will of God.

Mr. Shakita

Good Will to you Alexia. Nice meeting you.

[joer]

One Battle


"The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief."

[Zzyzx]

"The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief."

"Just believe without a doubt and you won't have to think or decide".

"Follow me and don't ask any questions".

"Just believe on faith alone what you are told".

"Believe as I say and you will be rewarded after you die".


No battles, simple compliance. Promises without substance.

No thank you. I prefer to retain the ability to think. Thinking often includes questioning of what one is told and doubt about what is presented as "absolute truth".

[McCulloch]

The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief.

The seeker after truth has but one enemy, and that is faith, the certainty that one has already arrived at the truth, and one strong ally, doubt, the ability and desire to challenge the established belief.

[joer]

"The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief."

"Just believe without a doubt and you won't have to think or decide".

"Follow me and don't ask any questions".

"Just believe on faith alone what you are told".

"Believe as I say and you will be rewarded after you die".


No battles, simple compliance. Promises without substance.

No thank you. I prefer to retain the ability to think. Thinking often includes questioning of what one is told and doubt about what is presented as "absolute truth".

Some sow Hope. (which is Grace)
Some sow doubt.
When the harvest comes we'll see which yielded more truth.

[joer]

The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief.

The seeker after truth has but one enemy, and that is faith, the certainty that one has already arrived at the truth, and one strong ally, doubt, the ability and desire to challenge the established belief.

Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed. Living truth teaches the truth seeker aright only when it is embraced in wholeness and as a living spiritual reality, not as a fact of material science or an inspiration of intervening art.

Good is Good and Bad is Bad. Everything in between often gets confused. - joer -today

[alexiarose]

The believer has only one battle, and that is against doubt - unbelief.

The seeker after truth has but one enemy, and that is faith, the certainty that one has already arrived at the truth, and one strong ally, doubt, the ability and desire to challenge the established belief.

Truth often becomes confusing and even misleading when it is dismembered, segregated, isolated, and too much analyzed. Living truth teaches the truth seeker aright only when it is embraced in wholeness and as a living spiritual reality, not as a fact of material science or an inspiration of intervening art.

Good is Good and Bad is Bad. Everything in between often gets confused. - joer -today

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?
And what is good today may be bad tomorrow. What is good for one can be bad for another. These are the shades of gray. There is nothing in between.

[joer]

alexiarose wrote

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?

Back up seven posts in the thread for the answer.
She also wrote:

Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies.

Exactly!

[alexiarose]

alexiarose wrote

If it isn't analyzed, how is it determined to be true?

Back up seven posts in the thread for the answer.
She also wrote:

Truth can''t be found by holding on to childhood fantasies.

Exactly!

I read the post but honestly, I didn't understand much of it. If you hold on to something just because faith says it is true, then you haven't really found truth have you?