I I V

[achilles12604]

There is ZERO independent, impartial, verifiable (IIV for short) evidence of resurrection -- just some biblical claims that are verified only by biblical claims.

This got me thinking. How many events, figures, or otherwise from history (or even the present) fall victim to this same dilemma? I can think of a few. I'll chime in in a bit but I want others to go first this time.


Non-theists favorite attack upon the bible is that there is little verifiable, independent evidence for it. While I disagree with the amount or quality of the evidence in question, I have a larger problem with their expectations. After all they are attacking documents and events which occurred over 2000 years ago. The amount of evidence we DO have is amazing really. How much of history from that time is lost forever? The library in Alexandria, Rome's fire, Battles and destruction between Christians and Jews and others, Muslim conquests, Rome's conquests. . . .

We shouldn't really expect to have ANYTHING from that time period should we?

Anyway, I'm off subject and I haven’t even finished my OP.

My primary point and question for this thread is what other historical people, places, or events does history record through only follower's or otherwise "biased" sources?

Example: Roman rulers attested to by Roman followers. Jesus attested to by Jesus followers.

What can actually be PROVEN using the extreme demands placed on religion by non-theists?

[Scrotum]

There is ZERO independent, impartial, verifiable (IIV for short) evidence of resurrection -- just some biblical claims that are verified only by biblical claims.

This got me thinking. How many events, figures, or otherwise from history (or even the present) fall victim to this same dilemma? I can think of a few. I'll chime in in a bit but I want others to go first this time.


Non-theists favorite attack upon the bible is that there is little verifiable, independent evidence for it. While I disagree with the amount or quality of the evidence in question, I have a larger problem with their expectations. After all they are attacking documents and events which occurred over 2000 years ago. The amount of evidence we DO have is amazing really. How much of history from that time is lost forever? The library in Alexandria, Rome's fire, Battles and destruction between Christians and Jews and others, Muslim conquests, Rome's conquests. . . .

We shouldn't really expect to have ANYTHING from that time period should we?

Anyway, I'm off subject and I haven’t even finished my OP.

My primary point and question for this thread is what other historical people, places, or events does history record through only follower's or otherwise "biased" sources?

Example: Roman rulers attested to by Roman followers. Jesus attested to by Jesus followers.

What can actually be PROVEN using the extreme demands placed on religion by non-theists?

Well, considering there is no God, it is not very hard to throw away your claim about a Biblical Correct World. The same people, during this time, as well as in the Bible, assumed the world to be Flat, and standing on pillars etcetera.

Im curious, why do you IGNORE this things, whiles claiming "Truth"??

[achilles12604]

There is ZERO independent, impartial, verifiable (IIV for short) evidence of resurrection -- just some biblical claims that are verified only by biblical claims.

This got me thinking. How many events, figures, or otherwise from history (or even the present) fall victim to this same dilemma? I can think of a few. I'll chime in in a bit but I want others to go first this time.


Non-theists favorite attack upon the bible is that there is little verifiable, independent evidence for it. While I disagree with the amount or quality of the evidence in question, I have a larger problem with their expectations. After all they are attacking documents and events which occurred over 2000 years ago. The amount of evidence we DO have is amazing really. How much of history from that time is lost forever? The library in Alexandria, Rome's fire, Battles and destruction between Christians and Jews and others, Muslim conquests, Rome's conquests. . . .

We shouldn't really expect to have ANYTHING from that time period should we?

Anyway, I'm off subject and I haven’t even finished my OP.

My primary point and question for this thread is what other historical people, places, or events does history record through only follower's or otherwise "biased" sources?

Example: Roman rulers attested to by Roman followers. Jesus attested to by Jesus followers.

What can actually be PROVEN using the extreme demands placed on religion by non-theists?

Well, considering there is no God, it is not very hard to throw away your claim about a Biblical Correct World. The same people, during this time, as well as in the Bible, assumed the world to be Flat, and standing on pillars etcetera.

Im curious, why do you IGNORE this things, whiles claiming "Truth"??

SAY WHA?

your claim about a Biblical Correct World.

Real quick, without drawing us to off topic to quick, where on earth did I claim this?

Oh and by the way, what on earth does this have to do with my question? Are you purposefully trying to drag my thread off topic before it even gets discussed?

[Goose]

There is ZERO independent, impartial, verifiable (IIV for short) evidence of resurrection -- just some biblical claims that are verified only by biblical claims.

This got me thinking. How many events, figures, or otherwise from history (or even the present) fall victim to this same dilemma? I can think of a few. I'll chime in in a bit but I want others to go first this time.


Non-theists favorite attack upon the bible is that there is little verifiable, independent evidence for it. While I disagree with the amount or quality of the evidence in question, I have a larger problem with their expectations. After all they are attacking documents and events which occurred over 2000 years ago. The amount of evidence we DO have is amazing really. How much of history from that time is lost forever? The library in Alexandria, Rome's fire, Battles and destruction between Christians and Jews and others, Muslim conquests, Rome's conquests. . . .

We shouldn't really expect to have ANYTHING from that time period should we?

Anyway, I'm off subject and I haven’t even finished my OP.

My primary point and question for this thread is what other historical people, places, or events does history record through only follower's or otherwise "biased" sources?

Example: Roman rulers attested to by Roman followers. Jesus attested to by Jesus followers.

What can actually be PROVEN using the extreme demands placed on religion by non-theists?

Achilles, I was thinking of creating a thread along these lines questing the now infamous "independent, impartial, verifiable" (IIV) evidence mantra. I'm glad you did.

I'm wondering if skeptics requiring this type of evidence would accept the occurence of an ancient event that had the following for evidence:

1. It was attested to by four or so ancient writers that all lived at least a generation or two after the event in question;
2. the writers depended on one eyewitness account which no longer exists;
3. some of these writers referenced supernatural activities in their written work;
4. the earliest extant manuscripts of these writings being dated hundreds of years after the event;
5. most, if not all, of the writers we could demonstrate had a bias or axe to grind and were not necessarily impartial;
6. the archeological evidence is limited and it can neither prove nor disprove the occurence of the event in question.

Would anyone conclude that this is sufficient evidence to be reasonably sure an event in ancient history has taken place?

[bernee51]

There is ZERO independent, impartial, verifiable (IIV for short) evidence of resurrection -- just some biblical claims that are verified only by biblical claims.

This got me thinking. How many events, figures, or otherwise from history (or even the present) fall victim to this same dilemma? I can think of a few. I'll chime in in a bit but I want others to go first this time.


Non-theists favorite attack upon the bible is that there is little verifiable, independent evidence for it. While I disagree with the amount or quality of the evidence in question, I have a larger problem with their expectations. After all they are attacking documents and events which occurred over 2000 years ago. The amount of evidence we DO have is amazing really. How much of history from that time is lost forever? The library in Alexandria, Rome's fire, Battles and destruction between Christians and Jews and others, Muslim conquests, Rome's conquests. . . .

We shouldn't really expect to have ANYTHING from that time period should we?

Anyway, I'm off subject and I haven’t even finished my OP.

My primary point and question for this thread is what other historical people, places, or events does history record through only follower's or otherwise "biased" sources?

Example: Roman rulers attested to by Roman followers. Jesus attested to by Jesus followers.

What can actually be PROVEN using the extreme demands placed on religion by non-theists?

Achilles, I was thinking of creating a thread along these lines questing the now infamous "independent, impartial, verifiable" (IIV) evidence mantra. I'm glad you did.

I'm wondering if skeptics requiring this type of evidence would accept the occurence of an ancient event that had the following for evidence:

1. It was attested to by four or so ancient writers that all lived at least a generation or two after the event in question;
2. the writers depended on one eyewitness account which no longer exists;
3. some of these writers referenced supernatural activities in their written work;
4. the earliest extant manuscripts of these writings being dated hundreds of years after the event;
5. most, if not all, of the writers we could demonstrate had a bias or axe to grind and were not necessarily impartial;
6. the archeological evidence is limited and it can neither prove nor disprove the occurence of the event in question.

Would anyone conclude that this is sufficient evidence to be reasonably sure an event in ancient history has taken place?

Sounds a little like a loaded quaesion Goose? What 'event' did you have in mind?

[Goose]

There is ZERO independent, impartial, verifiable (IIV for short) evidence of resurrection -- just some biblical claims that are verified only by biblical claims.

This got me thinking. How many events, figures, or otherwise from history (or even the present) fall victim to this same dilemma? I can think of a few. I'll chime in in a bit but I want others to go first this time.


Non-theists favorite attack upon the bible is that there is little verifiable, independent evidence for it. While I disagree with the amount or quality of the evidence in question, I have a larger problem with their expectations. After all they are attacking documents and events which occurred over 2000 years ago. The amount of evidence we DO have is amazing really. How much of history from that time is lost forever? The library in Alexandria, Rome's fire, Battles and destruction between Christians and Jews and others, Muslim conquests, Rome's conquests. . . .

We shouldn't really expect to have ANYTHING from that time period should we?

Anyway, I'm off subject and I haven’t even finished my OP.

My primary point and question for this thread is what other historical people, places, or events does history record through only follower's or otherwise "biased" sources?

Example: Roman rulers attested to by Roman followers. Jesus attested to by Jesus followers.

What can actually be PROVEN using the extreme demands placed on religion by non-theists?

Achilles, I was thinking of creating a thread along these lines questing the now infamous "independent, impartial, verifiable" (IIV) evidence mantra. I'm glad you did.

I'm wondering if skeptics requiring this type of evidence would accept the occurence of an ancient event that had the following for evidence:

1. It was attested to by four or so ancient writers that all lived at least a generation or two after the event in question;
2. the writers depended on one eyewitness account which no longer exists;
3. some of these writers referenced supernatural activities in their written work;
4. the earliest extant manuscripts of these writings being dated hundreds of years after the event;
5. most, if not all, of the writers we could demonstrate had a bias or axe to grind and were not necessarily impartial;
6. the archeological evidence is limited and it can neither prove nor disprove the occurence of the event in question.

Would anyone conclude that this is sufficient evidence to be reasonably sure an event in ancient history has taken place?

Sounds a little like a loaded quaesion Goose? What 'event' did you have in mind?

Sure it's loaded. That's the point. I'll donate 50 tokens to you if you can guess the event?

[bernee51]

Sounds a little like a loaded question Goose? What 'event' did you have in mind?

Sure it's loaded. That's the point. I'll donate 50 tokens to you if you can guess the event?

Got me stumped at the moment.

[Goose]

Sounds a little like a loaded question Goose? What 'event' did you have in mind?

Sure it's loaded. That's the point. I'll donate 50 tokens to you if you can guess the event?

Got me stumped at the moment.

OK, a couple of hints.
1. It happened around 2000 years ago.
2. It arguably changed the course of history.
3. I'm most likely forgetting something. Not intential.

But I'm afraid I'll have to reduce the token offer to 25 in light of the assistance.

BTW, it's not the resurrection. Though you probably already gathered that.

[Scrotum]

Sounds a little like a loaded question Goose? What 'event' did you have in mind?

Sure it's loaded. That's the point. I'll donate 50 tokens to you if you can guess the event?

Got me stumped at the moment.

OK, a couple of hints.
1. It happened around 2000 years ago.
2. It arguably changed the course of history.
3. I'm most likely forgetting something. Not intential.

But I'm afraid I'll have to reduce the token offer to 25 in light of the assistance.

BTW, it's not the resurrection. Though you probably already gathered that.

I want you to answer the question, WHAT EVENT?

And as i suspect its something Biblical, do you have EVIDENCE for this event actually happened the way you tell it?

Change the course of History.... Roman Empire becoming "Christian" and kill everyone thats "not", erh, i mean Convert them. Eh no, thats wrong date?


Lots of things happened 2000 years ago. TELL ME NOW please.

[Goose]

Sounds a little like a loaded question Goose? What 'event' did you have in mind?

Sure it's loaded. That's the point. I'll donate 50 tokens to you if you can guess the event?

Got me stumped at the moment.

OK, a couple of hints.
1. It happened around 2000 years ago.
2. It arguably changed the course of history.
3. I'm most likely forgetting something. Not intential.

But I'm afraid I'll have to reduce the token offer to 25 in light of the assistance.

BTW, it's not the resurrection. Though you probably already gathered that.

I want you to answer the question, WHAT EVENT?

And as i suspect its something Biblical, do you have EVIDENCE for this event actually happened the way you tell it?

Change the course of History.... Roman Empire becoming "Christian" and kill everyone thats "not", erh, i mean Convert them. Eh no, thats wrong date?


Lots of things happened 2000 years ago. TELL ME NOW please.

The suspense is killing you, isn't. I'll get to what event soon. FIRST you need to answer my question that I asked before. Which is:

Would anyone conclude that this is sufficient evidence to be reasonably sure an event in ancient history has taken place?

Answer that question, then I'll tell you the event.

A couple more hints:
1. It is a non-biblical event.
2. It predates the NT.
3. It's in most history text books.

I'm afraid I'll have to drop the token reward to a mere 10 tokens, now.