Why don't religious people just go to heaven?

[Compassionist]

Billions of people on Earth believe that when the die they will go to heaven. Why don't they just kill themselves and go to heaven? My brother died at the age of 8 days because the doctor made mistakes. My parents told me that my brother went to heaven to live there in happiness for ever and ever. I asked them, "Why don't we all die and join him in heaven?" They said that it was forbidden to commit suicide. Makes me think that there really isn't any heaven after death. Why bother with life before death when life after death is promised to be infinitely better?

[Purple Knight]

You could still find things that would make you likely to die and it wouldn't be suicide. Keeping oneself alive is quite a chore, actually.

These things could even be a benefit to the needy. I'm sure the Chinese need help caring for the people coming down with coronavirus, for example.

Most people don't just throw caution to the wind, however; they live their lives as if that's all they get, because they know it is.

If I want to be charitable I could say that God actually requires us all to know this even though it isn't true, simply because we have to really play the game, just as we would if everything is really at stake. It wouldn't mean too much when you're giving up everything and sacrificing everything for others if you actually knew there was such a place as Heaven. We have to play like we don't know that.

But either way, everyone is atheists.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 21 by Purple Knight]

Most people don't just throw caution to the wind, however; they live their lives as if that's all they get, because they know it is.

If I want to be charitable I could say that God actually requires us all to know this even though it isn't true, simply because we have to really play the game, just as we would if everything is really at stake. It wouldn't mean too much when you're giving up everything and sacrificing everything for others if you actually knew there was such a place as Heaven. We have to play like we don't know that.

But either way, everyone is atheists.

Keeping oneself alive is quite a chore, actually.

Ah yes, it does seem like we really have to play the game of life, and yet play it like we don't know that.

How does that make everyone atheist?

What makes it quite a chore to keep oneself alive?

[Compassionist]

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:

I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.

And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.

But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.

Given the above verses, why do Christians have children? I would have preferred it if my parents did not have me and my brother. In fact, I think it is better for all sentient biological organisms to never be conceived into this horrific world full of suffering because then they would never suffer.

In my understanding, the main message from the main character of the story is that everything is hevel, it's like smoke or a vapor. We try to find meaning and purpose in things that are temporary and fleeting. Even followers of God will still experience suffering. People will experience injustice, their achievements will be forgotten, their money will go away, etc.

The author offers his own conclusion at the end of the book. He does not disagree with everything the main character has said, much of life is out of our control, but true meaning is found in the hope of God's judgment, clearing away the hevel and bringing true justice to the world. That hope should fuel our life.

There are great goods and joys to experience in this life. We have children to grow the community of love, which can extend beyond this life. Suffering occurs, but love is greater. That love is worth building and suffering for.

Let me also add my thoughts to the suicide question. I do not think suicide automatically keeps you from God's kingdom. I do think suicide speaks to a deeper problem being present and that there is hope for all who are considering suicide.

Yes, I know how it ends. My problem is that the Biblical God is either evil or imaginary.

We live in an evil world where the evil prosper and the innocent perish. I define good as anyone and anything that helps anyone and anything. I define evil as anyone and anything that harms anyone and anything. By these definitions, everyone and everything is a mixture of good and evil. Some are more good than evil while others are more evil than good. "Might is right. Adapt or die." That's the only rule of reality. Just study the last 4 billion years of history to see that my conclusion is based entirely on evidence. 99.9% of all species to ever exist on Earth are already extinct. We are in the middle of a human-caused sixth mass extinction which may kill the remaining 0.1% of all the species. I wish life was fair for all and free from suffering and death but I can't make it so. Please see:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_extinction_events
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_epidemics
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_n ... death_toll
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_famines
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_g ... death_toll

Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com and and

Given the evil world we live in and the evil verses in the Bible, the Biblical God is either evil or imaginary.

The Bible is not evidence. If you assume it is true, the Biblical God is profoundly unjust and cruel e.g. he punishes all women and children with horrific childbirth because of Eve's alleged mistake. I think the story of the Fall was made up by misogynists who fabricated the story to blame women when the fact is that women are simply victims of biology. Many women and babies have died due to the narrow birth canal. If God was real and good, God would not have created such a narrow birth canal.

The knowledge we have from astronomy, geology and biology proves the Biblical creation story to be false. I prefer disturbing truths to comforting lies. I can email you PowerPoint slideshows if you want to know more about how astronomy, geology and biology prove the Biblical creation story to be false. This forum doesn't let me upload files. Thank you.

[Bust Nak]

They are not allowed to kill is the obvious answer to that one.

That answer would means they place a higher priority on obedience than on the eternal well being of those around them.

On the other hand you have to wonder why they don't willingly succumb to diseases and other life-threatening situations. The existence of religiously based medical institutions is also a mystery. Whatever happened to "it's god's will"?

It's God's will that I personally get the best medical treatment money can buy.

[Compassionist]

[Replying to post 16 by Compassionist]

You are most welcome. Do read the information when you have a little time, I think you will change your mind.



JW

I did read the linked webpage. I am familiar with the quoted verses. I have been trying to prove the Bible to be true and ethical to myself since 24 December 2004 when I first started questioning the Bible after watching this documentary: Have you seen this documentary? Did you view https://www.evilbible.com/ and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ ?

Well then you'll need some more detailed material. I'll link below (but I would advise concentrating first on the issue of your atheism. It's no good researching if the bible is the word of a God you don't believe exists).
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/publication/r1/lp-e/ct

The publication All scripture inspired might be what you need
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/library/r1/lp ... ripture-si

Perhaps start with this CHAPTER: The Bible—Authentic and Inspired
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1962284

To learn more please see other posts related to...

THE BIBLE , HERMENEUTICS* and ... BEST TRANSLATION

* bible interpretation



JW

Thank you for trying to convince me. I appreciate your time and efforts. There are 4,300 religions on Earth currently. How do you know which of them is true? I am convinced that all of them are false becaue none of them is proven with evidence. I prefer disturbing truths to comforting lies. Most people still prefer comforting lies to the facts of life i.e. we evolved in a reality which doesn't care about us or about ethics - only suffering, unfairness and death are guaranteed for sentient biological organisms. 99.9% of all species to ever evolve on Earth are already extinct because life is so harsh and unfair. We are killing the remaining 0.1% because of our ignorance and delusions of life after death. This life is all we have. This planet is the only habitat we have. We need to take care of the Earth and help each other because no God will help us. Most people can't handle the facts of life. That's why 84% of humans are religious. This is predicted to rise to 87% by 2060 because religious people have more children than secular people. We should all be committed to truth and ethics but most of us don't care about truth and ethics.

[JehovahsWitness]

My problem is that the Biblical God is either evil or imaginary.

That may well be your perception but perception doesnt alter reality.

The Bible is not evidence.

Then upon do you base your conclusions about God's character?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Thank you for trying to convince me. I appreciate your time and efforts.

You are most welcome, "ALL LIVES MATTER" is my motto. I couldn't live with myself when the end comes if I didn't do all I could to save those that God is going to execute (kill)*.


JW

NOTE That is not to suggest God is going to kill you or your family, that's not for me to say, I'm no judge so I have no idea if he will or not. The point is that the bible charges us to give everyone the best chances of survival by warning them of what's coming and if they listen explaining how they can survive

[JehovahsWitness]

There are 4,300 religions on Earth currently. How do you know which of them is true?

Years of diligent study, far too detailed to go into in an internet post (and certainly more detailed than you are probably willing to read). Suffice it to say, when you believe something of value exists, you keep searching until you find it.

I am convinced that all of them are false becaue none of them is proven with evidence.

Then you are not familiar with Jehovahs Witnesses. You do well to put your confirmation bias on hold and examine our website, visit the kingdom hall and request a bible study. Until you do forgive me if I dont believe you have given the question sufficient time and effort.

If people spent half as much time at www.jw.org as they do at evilbible.com or whatever anti bible website they allow to mould their thinking, they would have at the very least a much more balanced outlook.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

We need to take care of the Earth and help each other because no God will help us.

And how's that workin' out for you?

We should all be committed to truth and ethics but most of us don't care about truth and ethics.

And yet you believe these same people will bring about a better world? Do you not think, in view of mankinds history, those that place their hope in human institutions and the power of individual ethics are suffering from their own flavour of delusional optimism? It might be a " disturbing truth" but humans have not proved themselves capable of managing this planet and if there is no God there is also no hope. That may not be a comfortable thing to admit but I prefer disturbing truths to comforting lies.




JW

[Compassionist]

There are 4,300 religions on Earth currently. How do you know which of them is true?

Years of diligent study, far too detailed to go into in an internet post (and certainly more detailed than you are probably willing to read). Suffice it to say, when you believe something of value exists, you keep searching until you find it.

I am convinced that all of them are false becaue none of them is proven with evidence.

Then you are not familiar with Jehovahs Witnesses. You do well to put your confirmation bias on hold and examine our website, visit the kingdom hall and request a bible study. Until you do forgive me if I dont believe you have given the question sufficient time and effort.

If people spent half as much time at www.jw.org as they do at evilbible.com or whatever anti bible website they allow to mould their thinking, they would have at the very least a much more balanced outlook.

JW

I have chatted with every Jehovah's Witness who visited our house. None of them had any evidence to prove Biblical claims.

We are not going to agree. I don't require anyone to agree with me. I respect everyone's human rights. One of these rights is the freedom to follow any or no religion. You have chosen Christianity and I have chosen secularism and veganism and compassionism (I invented it in 1982 - it means treating all who suffer with compassion). I wish you a fulfilling life.