"better than both is the one who has never been born&qu

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Should Christians have children?

Yes, because they should ignore Ecclesiastes 4:3 as it is wrong
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No, because Ecclesiastes 4:3 is right
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"better than both is the one who has never been born&qu

Post #1

Post by Compassionist »

Ecclesiastes 4:1-3 New International Version (NIV)

Again I looked and saw all the oppression that was taking place under the sun:

I saw the tears of the oppressed—
and they have no comforter;
power was on the side of their oppressors—
and they have no comforter.

And I declared that the dead,
who had already died,
are happier than the living,
who are still alive.

But better than both
is the one who has never been born,
who has not seen the evil
that is done under the sun.

Given the above verses, why do Christians have children? I would have preferred it if my parents did not have me and my brother. In fact, I think it is better for all sentient biological organisms to never be conceived into this horrific world full of suffering because then they would never suffer.

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Post #11

Post by Checkpoint »

bluegreenearth wrote:
Overcomer wrote: The atheist who is a proponent of naturalism has a far greater problem with evil than the Christian does. For the atheist, everything just is. There is no "ought to be" such and such a way. Why? Because if everything evolved at random, by chance, the best way that it could, and if, as Dawkins puts it, we're all just dancing to our DNA, then how can the atheist put blame on anything or anybody? Everything just is. Period.

The Christian, on the other hand, knows what evil is, how it entered the world, and, most importantly, how to deal with it. We know that Jesus Christ has defeated it, not entirely yet, but he will do so completely when he returns.

As for people being brainwashed from the womb, how do you explain those Christians who came to Christ as adults -- people like C. S. Lewis, J. Warner Wallace, Lee Strobel, Alistair McGrath -- all people who were atheists for decades and who became apologists for Christ? All of them found the evidence for God and for the truth of Christianity so compelling that they left atheism behind and entered into a relationship with Jesus and they did so as adults.
Straw-man. Why not simply ask atheists for their perspective?
No need to ask them, they make their perspective clear on this site, daily.

Why not explain and critique the Straw-man you found?

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Post #12

Post by bluegreenearth »

[Replying to post 11 by Checkpoint]

For one, your accusation doesn't distinguish between philosophical naturalism and methodological naturalism. Secondly, evolution is not guided by random chance but by natural selection.

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Post #13

Post by Compassionist »

Overcomer wrote: The atheist who is a proponent of naturalism has a far greater problem with evil than the Christian does. For the atheist, everything just is. There is no "ought to be" such and such a way. Why? Because if everything evolved at random, by chance, the best way that it could, and if, as Dawkins puts it, we're all just dancing to our DNA, then how can the atheist put blame on anything or anybody? Everything just is. Period.

The Christian, on the other hand, knows what evil is, how it entered the world, and, most importantly, how to deal with it. We know that Jesus Christ has defeated it, not entirely yet, but he will do so completely when he returns.

As for people being brainwashed from the womb, how do you explain those Christians who came to Christ as adults -- people like C. S. Lewis, J. Warner Wallace, Lee Strobel, Alistair McGrath -- all people who were atheists for decades and who became apologists for Christ? All of them found the evidence for God and for the truth of Christianity so compelling that they left atheism behind and entered into a relationship with Jesus and they did so as adults.
I am a strong agnostic regarding the ultimate nature of reality because our perceived reality could be an illusion (as Hinduism teaches) or simulation (as science fiction and some philosophers suggest). We have no way to verify the ultimate nature of reality. For instance, you and other apparently sentient biological organisms could be philosophical zombies i.e. you behave as if you are sentient but are not actually sentient. There is no way for me to know if you are truly sentient or you are just a philosophical zombie.

We evolved in a reality which doesn't care about us and other living things and it doesn't care about ethics. The operating principle of this reality is "Might is right, adapt or die." This reality is so harsh and unfair that 99.9% of all species to ever evolve on Earth are already extinct. Evolution is a hugely wasteful process which works through mutation and natural selection - it is not sentient and therefore, can't be ethical and fair. Most of the universe is devoid of life and is hostile to life. We have only the planet Earth where life has evolved - as far as we know.

Causality is not a matter of faith. It is an evidence-based conclusion that our choices are determined by our genes, environments, nutrients and experiences. If I or you had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of an eagle, we would be able to fly like an eagle. If you or I had the genes, environments, nutrients and experiences of a dolphin, we would be able to sleep with half of our brain at a time.

If you truly have free will, please start fluently speaking, reading and writing in all of the 6,500 languages on Earth from right now without having to learn them. Also, use your free will to go back in time and prevent all suffering, unfairness and deaths. I bet you can't do these things. You can't because you are not free. You are a prisoner of causality who has suffered, will suffer more and will experience more unfairness and will die. Your belief in a God is not going to protect you from suffering, unfairness and deaths. I can't do these things either despite my best intentions. It's because I am not free either. Like you, I am a prisoner of causality. All living things come into being without their consent and are subject to suffering, unfairness and death.

I save lives because I, like other living things, prefer life and happiness over suffering and deaths. Life would be awesome if there were no suffering, unfairness and deaths. These things ruin what could be an amazing experience. I feel so much grief about all the suffering, unfairness and deaths. I wish I could go back in time and prevent all suffering, unfairness and deaths but I can't. So, I do what I can to save lives, compensate for unfairness and relieve suffering. If I were all-knowing and all-powerful, no one would ever experience suffering, unfairness and death. With omniscience and omnipotence comes omniculpability. So, if your God exists and is omniscient and omnipotent then God is also omniculpable.


“Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?�

― Epicurus

You clearly have no experience of Bipolar Affective Disorder. There is no substitute for actual experience. You are failing to empathise because it is outside the zone of your experiences so far. If I had told you that my friend experienced hunger then you would have no difficulty empathising with that because you, too, have experienced hunger. Since you clearly have not experienced Bipolar Affective Disorder, you are failing to empathise. It is not your fault. I am not blaming you. You are a prisoner of causality who lacks free will - as do all living things. We are all doomed to live inevitable lives by making inevitable choices and we are all doomed to suffer and die.

I was born into Islam. I left Islam and became an agnostic. I left agnosticism and became a Christian after reading a leaflet about God's love during a depressive episode. Then I read the whole Bible and was horrified by how evil the Biblical God is. So, I left Christianity and became an agnostic secular transhumanist pacifist vegan compassionist. I find that most Christians are Christians because of ignorance, fear of hell and greed for heaven. They don't care about truth and ethics.

Please see https://www.evilbible.com and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com if you care about truth and ethics. Thank you.

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