Confrontational and defensive

[Menotu]

This weekend, I participated in an online discussion about a specific Discovery/Travel Channel type of show. At the beginning of the show, it mentioned human evolution. One particular person commented something to the effect of:
"I know I'll get flack for this, but I don't believe people evolved from monkeys. I believe...." and she went on to offer her belief in creationism.

My response was something to the effect of:
"Belief is a powerful thing....people can believe in all sorts of things...and most people don't care what a person believes so long is that belief isn't forced on them and/or paraded around as legitimate science."

My response received a lot of non-verbal support, but few took to the keypad to type out support and/or their agreement. By far, the most typed responses were people accusing me of insulting their belief, saying they have scientific proof of God, accusing me of not understanding their belief system (not knowing I was a believer for decades) and misc. accusations of being rude, hateful, a bad person, insulting, etc. One person even accused me of saying the original poster (and all believers) shouldn't be able to voice her opinion (which happened in no way, shape or form).

Of course, if I wanted to be mean, rude and insulting, there would be no mistaking it! I said, at least three times, that I don't care what someone believes in or not, so long as it's not forced on me or masqueraded as science.

It made me wonder a couple of things:
1) Why were so many non-believers so hesitant to support my statements with a typed out agreement (doing so almost anonymously with 'likes' or 'hearts' of emoji OKs) unlike the believers who were so vocal and misguided in their statements &
2) Why were so many believers so quick to start accusing without any evidence to support their claims of being rude, hateful, insulting, etc? What is it about belief in God that makes people so quick to judge and attack others? Is it something that makes us 'human' or is it something that's taught in churches?

Thoughts?

[Zzyzx]

.

Why were so many believers so quick to start accusing without any evidence to support their claims of being rude, hateful, insulting, etc?

Believers / Religionists are conditioned, indoctrinated, taught to 'have faith' – believe without evidence (usually since the trusting and naive days of childhood). Baseless belief is considered a virtue (often as a ticket to heaven).

'Don't confuse them with facts. Their mind's made up' seems to apply in many case. No need to think, just go on emotion / belief / opinion / religious instruction.

What is it about belief in God that makes people so quick to judge and attack others?

Preachers have a vested interest in demeaning and discrediting those who do not believe their god tales – and are particularly denigrating of those who stop believing (apostates) because those who do not believe their tales threaten the income and status of clergy. Thus, the scene is set to condemn non-believers.

Is it something that makes us 'human' or is it something that's taught in churches?

Dislike of outsiders may be inherent in humans and may have survival advantages (particularly in pre-historic times). However that tendency is often exploited by despots / dictators / cult leaders / etc for self-serving purposes.

[SallyF]

When you don't have a rebuttal …

Make a lot of noise …

And claim to have been insulted.

Or better still …

That your "God" has been insulted.

Then burnings and stonings are quite in order.

It's all to do with the doctrine of "love", you see.

[Menotu]

When you don't have a rebuttal …

Make a lot of noise …

And claim to have been insulted.

Or better still …

That your "God" has been insulted.

Then burnings and stonings are quite in order.

It's all to do with the doctrine of "love", you see.

Do you think this is taught, or part of the human complex?
Or both?
Or something else?

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 1 by Menotu]

It made me wonder a couple of things:
1) Why were so many non-believers so hesitant to support my statements with a typed out agreement (doing so almost anonymously with 'likes' or 'hearts' of emoji OKs) unlike the believers who were so vocal and misguided in their statements &
2) Why were so many believers so quick to start accusing without any evidence to support their claims of being rude, hateful, insulting, etc? What is it about belief in God that makes people so quick to judge and attack others? Is it something that makes us 'human' or is it something that's taught in churches?

Thoughts?

1) I don't know. I, for one, did not see your post. But I, too, probably would have replied with a "like." I think you should be satisfied with those affirmations.

2) I think it is simply that believers on a debate site are conditioned to be defensive because their god gets abundant attacks and insults on a regular basis. I haven't read your post but by what you say here they were definitely out of line.

Best of luck to you.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 1 by Menotu]

It made me wonder a couple of things:
1) Why were so many non-believers so hesitant to support my statements with a typed out agreement (doing so almost anonymously with 'likes' or 'hearts' of emoji OKs) unlike the believers who were so vocal and misguided in their statements &
2) Why were so many believers so quick to start accusing without any evidence to support their claims of being rude, hateful, insulting, etc? What is it about belief in God that makes people so quick to judge and attack others? Is it something that makes us 'human' or is it something that's taught in churches?

Thoughts?

1) I don't know. I, for one, did not see your post. But I, too, probably would have replied with a "like." I think you should be satisfied with those affirmations.

2) I think it is simply that believers on a debate site are conditioned to be defensive because their god gets abundant attacks and insults on a regular basis. I haven't read your post but by what you say here they were definitely out of line.

Best of luck to you.

It wasn't a debate site, it was just a site that had a comment section
Which is why I was confused

[Purple Knight]

1) Why were so many non-believers so hesitant to support my statements with a typed out agreement (doing so almost anonymously with 'likes' or 'hearts' of emoji OKs) unlike the believers who were so vocal and misguided in their statements &
2) Why were so many believers so quick to start accusing without any evidence to support their claims of being rude, hateful, insulting, etc? What is it about belief in God that makes people so quick to judge and attack others? Is it something that makes us 'human' or is it something that's taught in churches?

Thoughts?

This may not be every believer, but I think there are people who know their beliefs are wrong, but refuse to change them anyway. It's human nature. And yes, this applies even if their beliefs turn out to be true.*

When people are aware of the faults in their beliefs, the most successful recourse is hostility and/or offence. If you just keep attacking, you don't have to defend. This is simply a logical strategy if you can't defend and you know so.

*I wonder what Christians believe happens to these people after they die. They're not exactly fake Christians. They believe the dogma... they just know on some subconscious level that they oughtn't.

And no, I'm not attacking Christianity or claiming it's false. I'm saying it might turn out to be true, even when the person in question, at a deep level, hates and distrusts their own beliefs.

Let's have an analogy about a crazy person locked up in an nuthouse who believes their starship is going to beam them up. Let's say I take pity on them and engage in their fantasy as if it's my own, while (at first) knowing absolutely that it's a fantasy. As time goes by, I fall in love with this person, get them out of the nuthouse, and slowly it stops mattering if their fantasy is real or not. We live as if it is. As the day of their extraction draws near, so much time has passed that I forgot I ever considered it pure fantasy. I have put it out of my mind that the beam-out won't happen because I want my reaction to be the same disappointment she has, with not a hint of I-told-you-so, because despite being crazy, she's very sensitive and she'll catch it.

The beam-out actually happens.

Now, after I tirade myself out about how molecular transport just kills you, there's not much of a dilemma because I can keep the better environment by continuing to play along, and no one will be the wiser. Yes, that communicator obviously wasn't just a toy. I know that because I disassembled it and discovered for myself that it contained technology my planet didn't possess. Yep. I totally looked for myself and found the evidence. I wasn't just playing along. Nope. No siree. I'll take those pats on the back for being scientific and curious now.

However, if we're talking about religion the issue becomes more complex. I'm playing along so well that I've fooled myself, but deep down, I think it's fake. If God is going to check my internal compass on this, what would be the verdict, I wonder?

I mean, I'm an inherently doubtful and rational person. I might not be capable of faith. Does God want me to play along? I admit that in the past, I might have, simply because religion is valuable for maintaining a society and I do see that. If more people are being held back from acts like murder and theft because of religion than because of the law (or because they understand universalisability), then it might be hurting a lot of people for me to go about yelling that God doesn't exist, so I might not do it in a primitive situation. If they build their house on a foundation of straw, I'm not going to be the one to blow it down and leave them homeless just because I think they built it wrong. In a precarious situation, having shelter at all is probably more important.

[SallyF]

When you don't have a rebuttal …

Make a lot of noise …

And claim to have been insulted.

Or better still …

That your "God" has been insulted.

Then burnings and stonings are quite in order.

It's all to do with the doctrine of "love", you see.

Do you think this is taught, or part of the human complex?
Or both?
Or something else?

When a child is incapable of rationalising their thoughts and actions …

They will often simply throw a tantrum.

It appears innate.

But spiritual leaders can help you to learn how to do it more subtly …

Or more spectacularly.



Repeated behaviour demonstrates that validating the emotions only validates the beliefs that were never rationalised …

I suggest because they never can be.

So the loud confrontation as defence continues.

(Avoidance and obfuscation and semantic games work well too.)

[otseng]

I mean, I'm an inherently doubtful and rational person. I might not be capable of faith. Does God want me to play along?

You might be onto something here. At the surface level, it's easy to see why Christianity can be seen as false. For most Christians, they rarely bother to check the validity of Christianity, even at the surface level. They just take all the claims by faith. If questioned, really the only retort they have is one just has to believe and accept. And they might even get upset that someone is questioning it. It takes hard work to dig deeper than the surface level, and most people are not willing to do the work (and I would include both Christians and skeptics in this). It is easier just to stay at the surface level. For Christians, just accept things by faith. For skeptics, just ridicule and mock all the apparent silliness in the Bible. As I've been trying to dig deeper for all these years (which is one reason I created this forum in the first place), I'm finding things truths that uphold and confirm Christianity.

God is wanting me to play along by continually asking me to dig deeper and grasp deeper truths. It's comparable to a 6 year old on a journey of learning what is a Riemann surface. At first concepts just seem so foreign and out of touch with reality. But, we just have to accept by faith that it'll all make sense later as we dig deeper.

2) Why were so many believers so quick to start accusing without any evidence to support their claims of being rude, hateful, insulting, etc?

I would generalize this to everyone, not just believers. As you've experienced, just go anywhere on the internet and it's rare to find civil discussions.

What is it about belief in God that makes people so quick to judge and attack others? Is it something that makes us 'human' or is it something that's taught in churches?

I don't think it's "taught" in churches to be judgmental. But churches certainly are not helping the situation. If anything, churches should teach we should not be so quick to judge others and to be understanding, loving, and forgiving.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 9 by otseng]

I would generalize this to everyone, not just believers.

Of course, but:
1) This site is geared towards a belief system (in this case Christianity) and is directed towards that POV &
2) You typically don't see non-believers attacking those with beliefs in the reverse of this scenario

As you've experienced, just go anywhere on the internet and it's rare to find civil discussions.

Especially in this age when everyone has to agree with someone else of they're mad and offended. But again, due to this site's theme, is geared towards this POV

churches should teach we should not be so quick to judge others and to be understanding, loving, and forgiving.

A good point. I think there's much churches should teach that they're not and teachings things they shouldn't teach that they are.
It makes me wonder, why isn't God stepping in and preventing this?
But then again, there's much that's protected by 'the church' that he doesn't seem too keen on stopping. Maybe he's got 'bigger fish to fry'?