Why does atheism have a suicide problem?

[EarthScienceguy]

Depression is a serious problem with in the greater atheist community and far too often, that depression has led to suicide. This is something many of my fellow atheists often don’t like to admit, but it is true. I know a lot of atheists, myself included, would all like to believe that atheists are happier people than religious believers and in many ways we are. But we also have to accept the reality that in some very important ways we are not.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/atheism- ... ec613b812b

[Jagella]

What evidence would you require to convince you that someone who intentionally committed suicide wanted to die?

I'm not sure what evidence does prove that a person really wants to die. That's the problem with euthanasia--it's often very hard to tell what a person really wants.

About thirty-five years ago I attempted suicide. I was being abused by my family and other people. I thought I didn't want to live. I took an overdose of pills, but it didn't work, obviously. I did think I was going to die, though, and I was terrified. For months after my suicide attempt I had morbid thoughts of lying in my coffin rotting. It was a truly terrible experience.

So I was wrong. I really didn't want to die. I think others may be mistaken as well. For those people who do take their own lives, we will never know what they felt and thought at the time they killed themselves. If they are anything like I was, then they would have been terrified as they faced the grim reaper.

[Tcg]

I'm not sure what evidence does prove that a person really wants to die.

I'd suggest that intentionally committing suicide is rather strong evidence. Would you consider this evidence that they actually wanted to live?

So I was wrong. I really didn't want to die.

Then you can not speak to the experience of those who really do want to die.


Tcg

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 71 by Jagella]

So I was wrong. I really didn't want to die.

I would argue that you did because you went through the process of ending your life. Having survived, your thoughts about it all obviously led you to a change of mind and you decided that you wanted to continue living. There are many who attempt suicide but survive the attempt and subsequently make repeated attempts until successful. They clearly wanted to die. We are all different and our lives belong to us and us alone.

[Purple Knight]

That's terrible! I've had people tell me to commit suicide too. Is your being treated that way a factor in your supporting suicide?

Not directly, no. But I definitely notice that the more overpopulated people are, the worse they treat each other.

So you approve of anybody committing suicide. Does that include close friends and family members?

I approve of the law letting them commit suicide, if that's what they want. I approve of the law saying it's their life, it's their choice. This is regardless of whether I would personally approve of some particular person committing suicide.

OK, but it's important to understand that the disabled are often seen as wanting to die. This view is often presented as a rationale for euthanizing the disabled.

Well that's awful. And I wonder what that strapping blonde man's job is, who's holding up the others in the propaganda piece. Unless he's directly involved in the creation of resources, he's exactly like them: Just another mouth, struggling to grab as many resources as he can. If the handsome fellow is the one who wants to go, it's more resources for the other two, just the same as if one of them wanted to go.

If you want to free-up resources, then another option is genocide. Genocide will have the same effect as euthanasia by freeing-up resources like food. The fewer people alive--the more food available for the lucky few who live on.

That's true, but genocide or murder is one person making the choice of whether others should live or die. I think everyone should make that choice for themselves.

You say there are easy ways to make sure everyone gets enough resources?

I don't know how easy it may be to assure that everybody gets what they need, but obviously we should try.

And we do. And it's not enough.

Another option is to have suicidal people live on to help people get the resources they need. The more people living, the more people who can assist others!

If they can create resources, then sure, force them to live.

If someone doesn't want to live, listen to them and don't force them to live.

I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. I'm just expressing my disapproval of euthanasia. And if I do encounter a person who wants to die, then I will try to talk them out of it.

But... you think the law, and you, but not the person in question, should be allowed to decide for the person in question whether they should live or die.

Someone else asked you what evidence you would accept that a person really wanted to die. If you would never accept any, no matter how good it was, then your assumption that they don't really want to die is not falsifiable.

Here's how logic works with falsifiability.

I say, "Jagella, all crows are black."

You say, "Wow, Purple, you don't say. What evidence would you accept that not all crows are black."

So I present the scenario in which my statement would be falsified. "Well, Jagella, if you show me one white crow, then not all crows are black."



And look there, it's a white crow. My statement that all crows are black has been falsified.

Now here's what you did:

Jagella: "Those people who say they want to die probably don't."

And TCG replied, "What evidence would you accept that they really do want to die?"

Jagella: "....."

[Jagella]

I'd suggest that intentionally committing suicide is rather strong evidence. Would you consider this evidence that they actually wanted to live?

No. As I have illustrated, a person may think they want to die, but when they actually face death, their attitude may change drastically. None of us can know what a person is thinking as they drown, hang from a rope, or fall to their death. It's easy to sit back in one's armchair safely contemplating death and imagine that it's OK. But when that person is actually facing death, it may well be another story.

[Jagella]

I approve of the law letting them commit suicide, if that's what they want. I approve of the law saying it's their life, it's their choice. This is regardless of whether I would personally approve of some particular person committing suicide.

You're not answering my question. Do you approve of anybody committing suicide including close friends and family members?

...I wonder what that strapping blonde man's job is, who's holding up the others in the propaganda piece.

He typifies the typical able-bodied Aryan struggling to support those "worthless eaters." I have had people harass me because I'm unemployed and take up resources that I presumably do not contribute to even though I'm obviously disabled. So the attitude in Germany is the attitude in America.

I think everyone should make that choice for themselves.

How exactly can we prevent euthanasia being inflicted on people who either don't want it or are pressured into it?

I don't know how easy it may be to assure that everybody gets what they need, but obviously we should try.

And we do. And it's not enough.

Actually, we are making very significant improvements in the quality of people's lives throughout much of the world. I think we should keep up this good work.

But... you think the law, and you, but not the person in question, should be allowed to decide for the person in question whether they should live or die.

I suppose I do feel that way! We don't allow anybody to do whatever they choose, so disallowing suicide should be one of those things we don't allow people to do.

If you would never accept any, no matter how good it was, then your assumption that they don't really want to die is not falsifiable.

It's really not my position to disbelieve anybody who state that they don't want to live. I'm just not sure that they really mean it.



Hmmm. I never saw a white crow before. I do hope it's not Photoshopped.

But I can believe in white crows if I see one. I can also believe people want to die if I have evidence that good, but unfortunately, I cannot see a person's intentions. In such circumstances, I would need to observe their actions and listen to their words to come to a conclusion about what they are thinking.

[Bust Nak]

I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. I'm just expressing my disapproval of euthanasia.

Disapproval of legalised euthanasia does not count as forcing people to stay alive?

[Jagella]

I'm not forcing anybody to do anything. I'm just expressing my disapproval of euthanasia.

Disapproval of legalised euthanasia does not count as forcing people to stay alive?

Yes, of course disapproval does not necessarily involve force. I disapprove of Islam, but I'm not trying to use force to get Muslims to leave their religion.

It's really strange to complain about people being forced to stay alive. I would think that we normally would oppose people being forced to die.

Do you think it's wrong to force people to keep their eyes? Should we stand by as they gouge them out?

[Tcg]

It's really strange to complain about people being forced to stay alive. I would think that we normally would oppose people being forced to die.

The false dichotomy you've presented ignores the fact that some people chose to die. If they have good reason to do so, they should be allowed that option.

Their choice in no way suggests that any other person should be forced to make the choice they have.


Tcg

[Bust Nak]

Yes, of course disapproval does not necessarily involve force.

You say that but law enforcement often involve force.

I disapprove of Islam, but I'm not trying to use force to get Muslims to leave their religion.

Ah huh, but that's quite a bit different from disapproving of legalised Islam though, isn't it? Does that not count as forcing Muslims to leave their religion?

It's really strange to complain about people being forced to stay alive. I would think that we normally would oppose people being forced to die.

Sure, it doesn't affect many people but it's as important as being forced to die to those who are affected.

Do you think it's wrong to force people to keep their eyes? Should we stand by as they gouge them out?

Depends. I am for legalised consensual eye removals though.