If the Trinity is an eternal truth..

[Elijah John]

If the Trinity is an eternal truth, and God was always Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (even well before the incarnation), why isn't that doctrine found in the "Old" Testament, the Hebrew Bible?

Instead we have "Hear O Israel, YHVH our God, YHVH is One". (Deuteronomy 6.4) And that proclamation was to be recited by YHVH's people every day in prayer, multiple times.

[Wootah]

[Replying to post 30 by Elijah John]

I agree with your line of thinking. Jehovah's name is above every name, including Jesus'. Jesus' name is above every name of angels and humans. Jesus came in his Father's name, as he must have made known himself because the crowds were aware of this.

"Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: 'Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah's name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!'" (Matthew 21:9)


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I agree with your post here, but wish Paul agreed too. Instead, he seems to revere Jesus' name above every other. (Philippians 2.9-11). If not, then where did Jehovah give Jesus a name above every other, as Paul claims? On the contrary, Paul lifted and twisted once again. Lifted a passage from Isaiah, (45.23) twisted it and applied it to Jesus. Jehovah said every knee would bow to Jehovah, not to Jesus. Paul bows to Jesus instead.

You know EJ you at least accept Paul is arguing Jesus is God. I appreciate you pointing that out.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 30 by Elijah John]

I agree with your line of thinking. Jehovah's name is above every name, including Jesus'. Jesus' name is above every name of angels and humans. Jesus came in his Father's name, as he must have made known himself because the crowds were aware of this.

"Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: 'Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah's name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!'" (Matthew 21:9)


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I agree with your post here, but wish Paul agreed too. Instead, he seems to revere Jesus' name above every other. (Philippians 2.9-11). If not, then where did Jehovah give Jesus a name above every other, as Paul claims? On the contrary, Paul lifted and twisted once again. Lifted a passage from Isaiah, (45.23) twisted it and applied it to Jesus. Jehovah said every knee would bow to Jehovah, not to Jesus. Paul bows to Jesus instead.

You know EJ you at least accept Paul is arguing Jesus is God. I appreciate you pointing that out.

Yes, while not saying verbatim, "Jesus is God" he does indeed say the same thing, in so many words. He had to know what he was doing by saying things such as "for me to live is Christ" and "it is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". If Christ ain't God, then that is i

[otseng]

Paul this and Paul that.

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[onewithhim]

Here we go yet again.

Paul this and Paul that.

Who does Paul bow to?

Quote:
Ephesians 3:
14 for this reason I bow my knees before the Father,
15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth derives its name.

If he truly did that he would not speak against Yahweh's law:
Paul wrote in Col. 2:16-17:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:

17Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

Paul will repeat this abolition of Sabbath in Romans 14:5-6. Paul writes: "One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind."

In Galatians, Paul bemoans Galatian Christians who wish to keep sabbath and observe the new moon as provided in the Law. Paul then says "anathema" -- cursed -- are those who wish to be just / justified by keeping such parts of the Law, i.e., sabbath, monthly festivals, etc. For otherwise, Paul argues, they will have to keep "all" of the Law, and not selected parts. (Gal. 1:6-12; Gal. 2:14-16 (cursed if not continue in all points of law); Gal. 3:9-12 (under a curse, misquoting Deuteronomy, ), Gal. 3:21.

Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

Like I said to EJ, Paul this and Paul that.

Just two points.

1) Paul writes to mostly Gentiles, not Jews. He was the Apostle to the Gentiles. He writes basicaly in line with what took place years before; see 2).

2) This whole issue was what the main Church leaders had to make a decision on because many believing and unbelieving Jews were saying what you are saying here, and more.

Luke shares what arose then and what was decided then, in Acts 15:1-33.

Paul did a LOT of preaching to Jews. His letter to the Hebrews is consummate. Peter seemed to be taking the helm concerning the Gentiles when he preached to Cornelius. I don't know off-hand who did more preaching to Gentiles, but Paul brought together all the things of the Jews' past with what they had experienced and were yet experiencing in his and the Apostles' life-times.


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[Yahwehismywitness]

If Paul truly followed Jesus where is his record of baptism? Jesus was baptized with water. Matthew 3:16. Follow means to go behind

The only thing I see he did was change his name from Saul to Paul where is his true repentance?


By contrast, the role of the true 12 was to be messengers of what Jesus taught them as commandments while He was among them, so as to make disciples of Jesus:

19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them... 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age. Matthew 28:19-20.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 30 by Elijah John]

I agree with your line of thinking. Jehovah's name is above every name, including Jesus'. Jesus' name is above every name of angels and humans. Jesus came in his Father's name, as he must have made known himself because the crowds were aware of this.

"Moreover, the crowds going ahead of him and those following him kept shouting: 'Save, we pray, the Son of David! Blessed is the one who comes in Jehovah's name! Save him, we pray, in the heights above!'" (Matthew 21:9)


.

I agree with your post here, but wish Paul agreed too. Instead, he seems to revere Jesus' name above every other. (Philippians 2.9-11). If not, then where did Jehovah give Jesus a name above every other, as Paul claims? On the contrary, Paul lifted and twisted once again. Lifted a passage from Isaiah, (45.23) twisted it and applied it to Jesus. Jehovah said every knee would bow to Jehovah, not to Jesus. Paul bows to Jesus instead.

You know EJ you at least accept Paul is arguing Jesus is God. I appreciate you pointing that out.

But Paul is NOT arguing that Jesus is God. He does not say what some versions of the Bible say at Philippians 2:6, that Jesus "thought it not robbery to be equal to God." Not at all. Other versions say, "He gave no consideration to seizing equality with God." The word for "robbery" and "seizing" is to be understood as something that Jesus did not have before , therefore he was not equal to God (and didn't even let it cross his mind to try anything underhanded such as Satan had tried).

Other scriptures that seemingly suggest that Jesus is God have been tampered with. Sometimes punctuation is maneuvered to show that Jesus is God. There was no punctuation in the original Greek. Often just one word---indicated as being there in the original Greek---is left out to give an entirely different meaning. For example: Titus 2:13 is famous for being an example of proof that Paul thought Jesus was God. It says in many versions: "Looking for the blessed hope and glorious coming of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ." It read in the original (with no commas):

"while we wait for the happy hope and glorious manifestation of the great God and of the Savior of us Christ Jesus."

Leaving out one word, "of," actually gives a different meaning. In the original wording, we can recognize TWO individuals being referred to, can't we? In fact, that is harmonious with how Paul referred to God and Christ throughout his letters. The Father is always "God," and is separate from the Son, Jesus. We can see that wherever we go in his letters. Look at all of the introductions at the start of his letters.

So we see that in Titus 2:13. It speaks of the glorious manifestation "of the great God" (the Father) AND "of the Savior of us, Christ Jesus."

There are other instances of unmerited punctuation or left-out words, tainting the meaning that Paul tried to convey. He ALWAYS referred to the Father as God, and not the Son. Why would we hang a whole belief system on the FEW verses that have been twisted, and ignore whole volumes of clear proof that Paul gave the Father His due consideration, and never placed the Son over or equal to the Father?

Turn to any of his letters. Here are his introductory verses to 2 Timothy:

2"to Timothy, my beloved son: grace, mercy and peace from God the Father AND from Christ Jesus our Lord."

It is the same with I Timothy, 2 Thessalonians, I Thessalonians, and all the rest of the letters. Jesus Christ is never called "God."


So...Paul does NOT set Jesus forth as God.



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[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 45 by onewithhim]

"For me to live is Christ"? Is that what Jehovah wants? Or is this an indication that for all practical purposes Paul considers "Christ" God. (though he does not say verbatim "Christ is God", but he may as well have) If not, how is that not idolatry? That statement, and statements like that? How is equating one's life to anything or anyone except Jehovah, not idolatry?

"For me to live is Michael the Archangel" Sound blasphemous? Idolatrous?

Shouldn't it be "for me to live is Jehovah"?

Was Paul a Jehovah's Witness? Or a "Christ witness"?

And here's another one.

"It is not longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Should Michael the Archangel be living in anyone?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 45 by onewithhim]

"For me to live is Christ"? Is that what Jehovah wants? Or is this an indication that for all practical purposes Paul considers "Christ" God.

Absolutely not. I would be so happy if you would stop putting thoughts into Paul's mind. He is saying that for him to live is Christ because Jehovah (God), the Father, wanted the information spread far and wide that His Son died for mankind. Paul took that assignment very seriously. That is why he said that.


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[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 45 by onewithhim]

"For me to live is Christ"? Is that what Jehovah wants? Or is this an indication that for all practical purposes Paul considers "Christ" God. (though he does not say verbatim "Christ is God", but he may as well have) If not, how is that not idolatry? That statement, and statements like that? How is equating one's life to anything or anyone except Jehovah, not idolatry?

"For me to live is Michael the Archangel" Sound blasphemous? Idolatrous?

Shouldn't it be "for me to live is Jehovah"?

Was Paul a Jehovah's Witness? Or a "Christ witness"?

And here's another one.

"It is not longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me". Should Michael the Archangel be living in anyone?

"For me to live is Michael" does not sound blasphemous to me. It merely tells me that Paul takes seriously Jehovah's wishes that the message of Michael/Christ must be spread abroad quickly. It is already understood (to people who are cognizant of the fact that Jehovah is the Father and that Jesus called Him "the only true God") that Jehovah is the Most High (Psalm 83:18). Paul is emphasizing the fact that Jehovah is serious about him being serious about spreading the word.

Michael/Christ lives in Paul as, I assume, any of Jesus' disciples. To me it simply means that Michael/Jesus affects us in deep ways, to carry out our commission and show our love for him and his Father.


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[Yahwehismywitness]

Michael/Christ lives in Paul as, I assume, any of Jesus' disciples. To me it simply means that Michael/Jesus affects us in deep ways, to carry out our commission and show our love for him and his Father.

I want proof where Jesus said he made Paul an apostle not in Paul's word in Jesus the red words?
My evidence this never happened:https://jesuswordsonly.com/recommendedr ... -paul.html