Drowning pigs

[Zzyzx]

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According to the Gospels, in a Jewish area / town Gerasene, Jesus cast demons into a herd of 2000 swine " that committed suicide by running into the sea.

There are three somewhat different versions: Matthew 8:28-34; Mark 5:1-20, Luke 8:26-39.

Observations:

1. Pigs can swim
2. Why would herdsmen have 2000 swine? Were they kept as pets?
3. Swine are 'unclean animals' not to be eaten by Jews.
4. Two thousand animals of any kind would have represented a great investment and great responsibility. Was compensation paid?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

Respones:

1. Pigs can swim So can Michael Phelps. That doesnt mean if you threw him off of a cliff he'd live to tell the tale.
2. Why would herdsmen have 2000 swine? I should think for food... maybe Were they kept as pets? I doubt it (although they say they are surprisingly intelligent creatures).
3. Swine are 'unclean animals' not to be eaten by Jews. Correct. The inhabitants were not Jews they were, if my memory serves me, Greek territories.
4. Two thousand animals of any kind would have represented a great investment and great responsibility. Was compensation paid? By whom ? The demons? I doubt it, demons are not known for their stellar business practices.



JW


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[Zzyzx]

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Pigs can swim

So can Michael Phelps. That doesnt mean if you threw him off of a cliff he'd live to tell the tale.

What cliff? Are you familiar with topography of the area?

Mark 5:13 rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.

Is a steep bank the same as a cliff? Shall we change the meaning of 'steep bank' to 'cliff' in order to try to make sense of nonsense?

Would you expect Michael Phelps to drown if he went down a steep bank into the sea?

Why would herdsmen have 2000 swine?

I should think for food... maybe

In a largely Jewish area?

Were they kept as pets?

I doubt it (although they say they are surprisingly intelligent creatures).

In mythology anything is 'possible'

Swine are 'unclean animals' not to be eaten by Jews.

Correct. The inhabitants were not Jews they were, if my memory serves me, Greek territories.

Correction: The area was Roman territory.

Seleucid rule over Jerash was brief, and after the death of Antiochus VII Sidetes (r.) in 129 BCE in battle against the Parthians, Jerash fell under the control of a series of successive, warlord-kings who ruled the city until 102 BCE. The chief beneficiaries of the power vacuum following the collapse of the Seleucids Empire were the Jews who quickly established their own kingdom with Jerusalem as their capital under the rule of the Hasmonean dynasty (140 BCE-37 BCE). The Hasmonean Kingdom reached its apex under the rule of the warrior king Alexander Jannaeus (r. 103-76 BCE) who besieged and conquered Jerash at the turn of the 2nd century BCE. The Hasmonean Kingdom would control Jerash until 63 BCE, and their lasting legacy to the city was the establishment of a Jewish colony as well as the facilitation of stronger trading ties between Jerash and the coastal cities under Jewish control.

The Roman-Jewish historian Josephus makes mention of Jerash in the 1st century CE, as a rich city populated by both Syrians and Jews. Moreover, Jerash is recorded in the New Testament of the Bible as "the region of the Gerasenes" (Mark 5:1; Luke 8:26).
https://www.ancient.eu/Jerash/

Alexander Jannaeus (also known as Alexander Jannai/Yannai) was king and high priest of Judea from (103 B.C.E. to 76 B.C.E.). His Hebrew name was Jonathan (Yehonatan). Although an effective military leader, he is seen in Jewish tradition as a ruthless tyrant who brutally persecuted the early Pharisees.

The third son of John Hyrcanus, Jannaeus came to the throne after the death of his brother Aristobulus I with the help of Aristobulus' widow Salome Alexandra, whom Jannaeus soon married. Continuing the success of his father Hyrcanus, Jannaeus substantially expanded Judea's territory. However, his sympathy with the Sadducees deeply alienated him from the Pharisees and led to a bloody civil war, after which he executed hundreds of the Pharisees by crucifixion. After his death, Salome Alexandra, as reigning queen, reversed his policy toward the Pharisees, leading to what is considered in Jewish tradition to be a brief golden age of educational and religious reform.
https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/en ... r_Jannaeus

It appears as though the area was heavily Jewish.

Two thousand animals of any kind would have represented a great investment and great responsibility. Was compensation paid?

By whom ? The demons? I doubt it, demons are not known for their stellar business practices.

A person who deliberately infects the livestock of others is responsible (but may not be known for stellar business practices " including one who was run out of his hometown of Nazareth as a fraud).

[Diagoras]

[Replying to post 3 by Zzyzx]

Are you familiar with topography of the area?

It appears that maybe Luke wasnt very familiar - he states the pigs drowned in a lake, not the sea.

Only a small discrepancy, though. Im more interested in why the devils asked to go into the pigs in the first place. All three gospel writers agree on the fact that the devils specifically asked for the pigs. Jesus does exactly as they ask (nice), and then they suddenly rush into a body of water of some description. Why ask for pigs, only to then make them do that? Did they enter the pigs, only to discover that tormenting a load of pigs wasnt as fulfilling for a demon? Or (more likely*), did the pigs freak out and the devils couldnt control them? What happened to the devils when the pigs drowned? Being evil spirits, I presume theyd not be affected by the physical world, so wouldnt drown. Theyd then be free to wreak havoc elsewhere - meanwhile, theyve manipulated Jesus into killing a herd of innocent animals (what a sucker!)

* Even more likely: its all a fairy tale, since theres zero evidence for spirits, demons or the like.

[JehovahsWitness]

Mark 5:13 rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.

Is a steep bank the same as a cliff?

DID THE PIGS RUN OFF A CLIFF?

The bible explains that the pigs where on a mountain (which can be defined acccording to Merriam's as "an elongated ridge") and uses the Greek word "kremnos" to describe what they ran over (Gk kata down/beyond /over). Strongs #2911defines "kremnos" as {quote} "overhanging, i.e. a precipice:--steep place"

What is a cliff ? A cliff is a "very steep, vertical, or overhanging face of rock, earth, or ice : PRECIPICE"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cliff

So the pigs didn't simply walk down a hill for a swim, they were violently driven ("rushed" gk Hormao) over a precipice, into the sea and "cliff" is indeed a suitable sysnonym.

We dont know exaclty which regions where covered by Mark and the topology may well have changed somewhat since the first century, but the eastern shore of the sea of Galilee is indeed marked by its hills.

[JehovahsWitness]

It appears that maybe Luke wasnt very familiar - he states the pigs drowned in a lake, not the sea

LUKE (characteristically a writer with a high regard for precision) called it a lake because that is technically what it is*. The Maccabees called it The Sea of Gennesareth and in the first century it was often called the "Sea" of Galilee or the sea of Tiberias because Herod Antipas had built his capital by that name, in honor of Caesar Tiberias, on its shores.

* A lake is defined as "a large area of water surrounded by land"

SEA OF GALILEE

[Zzyzx]

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Mark 5:13 rushed down the steep bank into the sea, and were drowned in the sea.

Is a steep bank the same as a cliff?

DID THE PIGS RUN OFF A CLIFF?

The bible explains that the pigs where on a mountain

Correction: Luke clearly specifies 'hillside'. Are hill and mountain synonymous in Apologetics?

(which can be defined acccording to Merriam's as "an elongated ridge") and uses the Greek word "kremnos" to discribe what they ran over (Gk kata down/beyond /over). Strongs #2911defines "kremnos" as {quote} "overhanging, i.e. a precipice:--steep place"

What is a cliff ? A cliff is a "very steep, vertical, or overhanging face of rock, earth, or ice : PRECIPICE"
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cliff

It would be prudent to consider the actual definition from www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/mountain

Definition of mountain
1a : a landmass that projects conspicuously above its surroundings and is higher than a hill The sun set behind the mountains.
b : an elongated ridge

Either way, however, there is no indication that a 'cliff' is implied with either an elevated landmass or a elongated ridge. Is this just something made up to make the story sound rational?

Luke disagrees with 'mountain' " A large herd of pigs was feeding there on the hillside

Playing word games does not change what Mark said " 'steep bank' or what Luke said " hillside

So the pigs didn't simply walk down a hill for a swim, they were violently driven ("rushed" gk Hormao) over a precipice, into the sea and "cliff" is indeed a suitable sysnonym.

Correction: Mark says The herd, about two thousand in number, rushed down the steep bank into the lake and were drowned. Matthew agrees whole herd rushed down the steep bank into the lake and died in the water.

There is NO indication they were 'driven' as you claim. Rushed and driven are not synonymous (except perhaps in apologetics when trying to make sense of nonsense)

We dont know exaclty which regions where covered by Mark and the topology may well have changed somewhat since the first century,

Perhaps you mean topography (a detailed description or representation on a map of the natural and artificial features of an area) rather than topology (the study of geometric properties and spatial relations unaffected by the continuous change of shape or size of figures)

If one proposes a change is topography they are asked to support their contention (with something more substantial than speculation)

but the eastern shore of the sea of Galilee is indeed marked by its hills.

The presence of hills does not necessitate cliffs. Many hills are not abrupt with vertical cliffs (as your illustration indicates)

[Diagoras]

[Replying to post 6 by JehovahsWitness]

Thanks - Im happy to concede that the gospel writers were agreed on which body of water this story was set. Your evidence for this is sound and perfectly reasonable. Ive learned something new.

[JehovahsWitness]

The bible explains that the pigs where on a mountain

Correction: Luke clearly specifies 'hillside'

The writer of Luke uses the Greek word OROS at Luke 8:32. This word can, according to STRONGS concordance describe {quote} a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain)"
http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S3735

[Zzyzx]

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The bible explains that the pigs where on a mountain (which can be defined acccording to Merriam's as "an elongated ridge")

The Greek word OROS found at Mark t verse111 is according to STRONGS concordance {quote} a mountain (as lifting itself above the plain): -hill, mount(-ain)"

Yup, when the Bible story doesn't make sense, blame translation errors. Is an anonymous Internet poster more capable than professional Bible translators and editors?

I have noticed that word play is common in apologetics, politics, and con jobs. Perhaps that is just a coincidence